Steering Wander.....

Not enough caster?  That's how mine was initially and lack of caster was the cause.

Get 4 caster shims (2 pairs) and the longer beam bolts.  You may just need 2 but they are only $10 or so.  Also check the steering rag joint (avoid the red poly ones).

Check all the steering components, of course, but listen to Lane and Greg; most stock beetles can use more caster even at only slightly faster than legal highway speeds, and if your car has been lowered at all with beam adjusters or cutting and rotating the centre set screw sections then it's essential for your safety.

"Wandering" at speed is pretty common in VW beetles, but back then you seldom got above 60mph or so and the wandering at lower speeds was manageable or un-noticed.  With the speedsters going at current freeway speeds, you notice it a lot more.

 

Listen to Greg and Lane:  

 

Your alignment guy/gal may be able to simply make a set - there's nothing exotic about them, all they are is a segment of what looks like electrical conduit.  I ended up with two on one side and three on the other (not all that uncommon) just to get it properly dialed in.  If you go more than two on a side you'll probably need the longer bolts mentioned.

Steering rag joint...I never gave that a thought.  Will check.  Also planning to order caster shims and bolts but cannot understand the science behind that setting being able to cause side steer issues.  Toe in and toe out would have made sense to me.

 

Also, can the CAMBER adjustment shim that is on the upper ball joint cause a change in the caster angle?  With that shim you can move the spindle forward and backward as well as in and out. 

 

Thanks for the help,

craig

David- if tie rods, ball joints, steering rag, tires and rims are all in good shape, wheel bearings are adjusted properly, the frame head and the beam itself are straight (it's not uncommon for one or both to be bent in an accident), it's aligned, the rear torsion bar bushings, alignment and tires and rims are also good (have I left anything out?), it steers fine at 50, 55 or 60mph but wanders just a bit and/or the car seems to feel like it gets pushed around by crosswinds (or big trucks as you're passing them and waving with that big SEG on your face!) at the higher speeds you really like to cruise at and gets a little worse with more go pedal, you may need caster shims (whoa- I think that's my longest sentence, in like, ever!).

 

An alignment tech familiar with these relics will be able to tell you the caster figure. Stock is somewhere around 3 degrees, and a car lowered a lot with the beam only can be so bad as to actually have a negative #. My own Cal Look bug (mid '70's - early '80's, lowered over 5" by the beam and using 135's), was not "quite right" at 55 and 60, a handful at 75 and downright scary at 100mph (only stayed there for a few seconds, shut it down and never went that fast again!). I think it's Gordon that runs about 6' caster; I would think anything above 4' would be good for freeway and slightly above speeds.

 

With one set of thinner shims (Berg's add 2.36') the stock bolts are good; stacking 2 sets or the thicker ones (3.4') require the longer bolts. I had problems with weld spatter on one side of my Speedster pan and a tap wouldn't cut through it, so I shortened that bolt a bit. Hope this helps. Al

my first speedy did that, i fixed by putting a 60lb bag of concrete in frunk.

Then something else was going on, as that would make the caster worse!

Thanks everyone, help me understand more - After reading about Caster and seeing what has been suggested in applying shims, it would appear that I must have more than the acceptable 2-3degrees of POSITIVE caster angle, right?

My car does sit higher in the rear than the front which would add more caster angle and the suggestion of adding shims to the Lower portion of the front rail would then reduce this angle hopefully getting it back to 2-3 degrees right?

 

 most stock beetles can use more caster even at only slightly faster than legal highway speeds

 

Al, would you recommend more than 2degrees for a stock front end?  If so, how much?  

 

thanks, craig

"My car does sit higher in the rear than the front..."

 

That was my problem.  I had asked Carey to raise the rear of my car prior to delivery as I was afraid I wouldn't clear the driveway.  That little bit removed several degrees of caster, making my car very twitchy and unstable.  I lowered the rear one inch and it transformed things.

 

Craig, why do you think you have more than minimum caster? How does the steering feel and react at the maximum speeds you ever take it to? I'm of the understanding (as is Lane) that raising the back of the car reduces caster. My recommendation- make sure all suspension parts are in good working order and replace anything worn (this is a good time for most of us to have the car off the road for a little while). Buy 2 sets of caster wedges and a pair of the longer 110mm bolts (the whole shebang will cost $25)-

http://www.geneberg.com/advanc...c8d8&x=3&y=5 Put 1 set of wedges under the bottom beam (re-use the stock bolts) and get the car aligned by someone that's familiar with VW's. Gordon in the past has recommended 5-7 degrees of positive caster. I know Gene Berg (in his technical articles) stated that any car capable of over 100mph should have 6' caster for safety (I've paraphrased, but that's the gist of it). If (with the 1 set) you have close to 5' and you never go anywhere near 100mph, great; if you still need the 2nd set of shims (and now the longer bolts) then so be it.

 

Remember guys, you're increasing caster above the stock figure (about 3' positive) to make the car safe when occasionally you play (even briefly) above those posted highway speeds. Think about the driving you do, and the speeds you (even occasionally) push the car to- all it takes is a moment for something to happen, and the more controllable the car is, the better you will fare.

David, Yes you are correct as I checked my two sources and found I had two views that were mirror image.  See below:  Once I saw the one with the arrow (I assumed pointing in the direction of the front of the car) I neglected to note the views were different and referred to caster angle backwards.  

So, I should first check to see what Caster angle I actually have before I fool with changing it.  

I will be checking the steering box and shaft joint first as well.  I wanted someone's opinion as to whether I could rule out my tie-rod ends as that should also impact steering stability.  Didn't here anything about that.

Thanks to all for the input.

As to having someone who "Knows VW's" that's a joke right?  I live in a beach town of 700 in the off season.  We have one car dealership (Chevy).  We have two garages and one refuses to work on my car because it does not have a computer diagnostic plug.  The other has two bays and I doubt very seriously that they have alignment equipment, I'll have to ask.  We have no Pep Boys or Midas shop.  If I had to depend on a knowledgeable mechanic, I'd never get to drive the car.  The car has never been over 65MPH since I've had it.  Again, small town, no where to go.  Out to the saloon and back on weekends.  I was just tired of it steering like my boat did.  

I'm putting together a list of things to fix next spring and wanted to do as little investigation as necessary, that's why I asked for help.  So the problem could be caused by several different things.  So noted, I'll check 'em all.

 

Thanks again.

Weight in the trunk: I have been doing this on some of my speedster projects I have owned.

I use a double Heavy duty Hefty bag and put rocks ( yup read that right) in it and go for a ride adding and removing rocks until I get the right feel and ride .

I them weight the rocks on the bath scale and make up a more permanent weight for under the battery. It's basic but it works.

"As to having someone who "Knows VW's" that's a joke right?" I really had a chuckle on that one... I had one but chose a subie in my second car ... In any case you need someone who is not faint of heart and you have to know a lot more with these cars. Ray

Craig,

 

Yes, the camber adjustment can affect the caster. There is a mark on the camber adjuster which should face FORWARD. If the mark is to the rear, less caster will result.

 

Aftermarket adjusters are offset from center MORE than the factory adjusters. So, if you use aftermarket adjusters AND a reasonable(factory neighborhood) camber, you will get some more caster.

 

A raised rear end will REDUCE caster. Think about a bike, with the fork rake and steering tube angled back. This is the same thing that is happening on the car, and provides hi-speed stability and steering self-return to center.

 

If you checked everything and it's all good, replace the steering stabilizer and re-check.

That's why we're all here Ray.  I like the idea of helping each other so we don't waste time and money with our cars in someone's shop.

Yeah, I don't know where you got that 2-3 degrees of caster needed shown up above, but in a lowered Speedster you should be looking at somewhere between 5 and 7 degrees to get it to track right without wandering or "bump steer".

I agree Craig, it certainly helps to get feedback and then if you can't do it yourself then if you can get a good mechanic that you can work with and do it together with him doing it. It will work well. I used to do a lot of fixing, body work, etc, now I find myself being the coach, info getter etc. That has worked for me. Ray 

Gordon, spec sheet on the web and some other data I read said 2-3 degrees I thought.

Of COURSE it does - That's for a stock VW sedan, riding at stock height.

 

What YOU have is a highly modified car riding about 3-4 inches LOWER than a stock VW sedan.  When you lower the suspension, you alter the geometry of the front trailing arms and screw up the caster and THAT makes it "wander" about.

 

You want to continue wandering around at freeway speeds, then run your caster at 2-3 degrees, like stock.

 

You want it to handle like a Miata?  Then set the caster at 5-7 degrees.

Other threads discussed tire pressure too.  With new cars running 28-44 PSI for better gas mileage - many pump their Speedster tires to maximum PSI on side walls. That's WRONG. Takes some trial and error but 18 to 23 PSI in the front and 26 to 30 PSI in rear are good range to be in. Make a sticker for the door jam once you find best PSI for your car. 

 

I'd also check front wheel bearings (inner and outer) and ensure they have fresh grease and are set correctly.

GORDON!!!!  Thanks for telling me, I thought I was driving a '75 VW chassis.  Seriously, I didn't know that the suspension was lowered for these cars.  The only lowering I knew about was the drop spindles.  Trailing arm adjustment never came to mind.  Guess I should have read a build manual.  Crap, what next!?!?!?!  OK, I'll see how close to 5-7 degrees I am or not.   thanks.

 

Wolfgang, I am riding at 24 PSI front/rear right now.  I can only adjust one thing at at time if I'm going to have success finding out what was wrong. 

 

Say.... what else aren't you guys telling me?  Would the metal flake paint have any effect?

 

Thanks again guys.

  

Do you have caster plates? Or some other method to measure caster?

 

Most people don't have a clue how to measure it, not saying you don't, just saying it may be close to a lost art.

Danny P, just saw you're info on the Camber adjusters. Thanks.  I'll look to see if mine have a mark (I assume they should).  When I put on the new ball joints, I added new camber adjusters, but did not pay attention when I took the old ones off to see how they were set, so I guessed when I installed the new ones. My bad.

 

Danny,
I recently had an alignment done on my Beck Speedster and was told they can accurately check Camber, Toe. But didn't have a means to measure caster.
Beyond just adding sets of shims under, how can one measure the deg. of caster on my car?
I do have that JR 2667 cc and take it to upper limits, therefore want to make sure it is properly set for control at the higher speeds. Thanks.
Tom L

It is measured by the difference in camber readings when the wheels are turned a specific number of degrees left, then right, usually. So usually you use a swiveling plate that has degree markings on it, the plate also allows effortless turning while the vehicle is stationary.

 

I think 20 degrees to each side, for 40 degrees total.

DR. Clock rocks..the ol cement bag in front can cure a lot of "problems" with caster, camber, toein, toeout, shims, angle of dangle, 4 wheel alignment, almost anything but buttrash..

 

Danny -

Do you have caster plates? Or some other method to measure caster?

 

I just assumed I could use a 24" level in the vertical and measure the difference from vertical to each of the trailing arm ends.  Then measure the distance between the trailing arms and do some quick trig to get an angle.  No?

I don't know how you'd measure the caster (short of taking it to an alignment shop), but if your car is pan based, Tom, and the front beam is bolted in (iIrc one company welds the beam in, but I don't know who?) your car will benefit from a pair of shims under the bottom beam. Even if your front suspension height was achieved with drop spindles and slightly shorter tires (and no beam center section turning), at best the caster is about stock and you want a couple of degrees more.

 

PS- Guys, if (at the speeds you like to take it up to) the car seems to wander a bit more than when you were going 15 or 20mph slower (and it will get worse the faster you go), you almost have to over-correct with the steering wheel and then it darts in the direction of change rather than being slightly corrected, a side wind can almost push you into the next lane before you can react (ok, that 1 is a bit extreme, but at 100mph you'll just about crap yourself faster than you can "holy sh*t!") and generally doesn't seem as controllable as it could be, you don't have to measure it to know it needs more, and a pair of shims under the bottom beam is the answer.

 

PS again- Worn suspension parts will also cause erratic (and dangerous) handling issues at higher speeds; if unsure of what you should be checking re-read my 2nd post from the top. For your safety, EVERYTHING MUST BE IN  TOP SHAPE! If anybody can think of anything I've missed, please chime in.

Caster is not adjustable on a Beck except by changing ride height in the rear relative to the front.  The beam is welded into the frame as a forward crossmember and caster is set when the frame is constructed.  Inadequate caster in a Beck means that the rear sits up too high relative to the front.  Every Beck has adjustable spring plates in the back and an adjustable beam up front.  Lowering the rear and/or raising the front will increase caster, thereby increasing stability.

Do they still use a pan, Lane, or a custom chassis? With a pan you could pie-cut and re-weld the frame head, or just add more to the custom frame and build more caster into the car so this wouldn't be an issue 

Lane recently posted photo of SE Beck custom chassis.  It does not appear to have any VW pan bits.  Can't find thread with photo though.  That custom chassis give far more leg (foot area) and seat room inside.

 

ALB - I agree Craig's issue is not a single item - each little wear item adds up to cause the problem.  Parts are so cheap that you can start replacing by trial/error.

Thanks, Lane.
Carey has also offered a detailed explanation.
Basically what you have said here and that Camber setting also could have an impact on Caster angle.

Yes, Tom, adjusting the camber via the offset adjuster does affect the caster a little bit, but you're not going to get the 2-4 (or more if the car's been lowered by modifiying the center collars of the beam itself) degrees we're all looking for here.

 

We don't know if worn parts are the problem, Greg; all I'm saying is to make sure everything in the suspension (rear as well, because worn torsion bar bushings poor rear alignment also have an effect on how the car feels, especially at higher speeds) is in proper working order. At highway speeds and above (and who here hasn't stomped on the pedal to see what it will do at least once, or cruised on some lonely stretch of pavement at 75, 80 or?? for a bit), things go wrong way too quickly with sometimes devastating results...

Al,

Agree with your observations made above.

While my Beck has a fixed welded beam up front, I am told that it is fixed at 4.5 deg. Caster, at standard ride height from SE.

The height diff. at back end will play into it, and the Camber, etc.  

Carey of SE, like yourself, point to other items such as: broken or worn bushings in front beam, loose pitman arm, improperly set front and/or rear tow, loose wheel bearings, excessive play in the steering box, etc. as most likely to cause the "Steering Wander" on a Beck Speedster.

I have measured the body (just behind front wheel) and it is 7"; back end (just in front of rear wheel) and it is 8.25" from level ground.   So I will deduce here that my ride is fairly close to level front to back at only 1.25" delta.

I am going to pay more attention to the wear of bushings, proper tightness of joints, etc. to make sure all is well in suspension, steering.

Thank you for your input, it is appreciated.

Tom L.

I didn't know that Beck dialled in more caster; that's good news. When going through stuff, don't forget the rear alignment and torsion bar bushings, as they can cause problems as well. Is your car swingaxle?

Yes, you can certainly do that but you have to be really accurate in your measurements. It can be hard to eyeball just where the exact center of the balljoints are and 1 degree is equivalent to just an 1/8th of an inch difference top to bottom.

 

Doing it by measuring the difference in camber at two opposite steering angles is both easier to do with the wheel on so the car is at normal ride height, and you don't have to worry about where the exact center of the balljoints are.

 

Most people might be better served by a more expensive caster/camber gauge that you can directly read instead of fiddling with knobs, but this will get the job done and is good to 1/8th of a degree:

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/...mber-Gauge,2699.html

Glad I didn't forget, HAPPY THANKSGIVING to y'all!!!!

 

craig