Still having starter issues

I know why this happens but can’t explain it as well as this article here. It’s not uncommon for a starter to fail when hot. Read this article so you understand why:

https://www.knowyourparts.com/...-when-hot-heat-soak/

For under $50 buy a auto stick VW Beetle starter at either auto Zone or Advanced Auto Parts for your VS speedster. .Their whse stocks them , it has it's own support nose cone ( no need for the bell housing bushing) and that starter has more torque than the standard one.

Subaru or VW engine? 

Hot start problems can be very difficult to diagnose.  Some simple and inexpensive things to try are: 1) buy a "starter heat blanket" and wrap your starter with it.  It's a piece of insulating fabric that you wrap around the starter and solenoid that keeps engine or exhaust manifold heat from migrating to the starter.  They cost about $20 at your local parts store.  When a starter becomes heat soaked, it required more current to operate.  The blanket helps keep the starter cool; 2) if the heat blanket works, think about a heat deflection shield that performs the same job as the heat blanket, i.e., it deflects heat away from the starter.  If one is not available for your engine, they can be easily made from aluminum flat plate.  Cut, bend, drill holes, install.

Of course, it may not be a starter problem.  It can also be a hot fuel problem, which may also require insulation of fuel lines or moving the lines to cooler areas. 

I suggest that you be methodical and eliminate possible causes one at a time, starting with the cheapest/easiest fixed first.  Please keep the group informed as to your solution.

I Agree with Jim Kelly.

 I have had several cars that the starter would do this from being over heated. This is a common problem It isn't a fuel problem if the engine wont crank over when hot. If the engine cranks normally and the engine wont start then it could be a fuel delivery issue. Once a starter gets over heated it can be damaged but still work when cool. Try wrapping it with a heat reflective blanket. They sell the kit at my autozone. It is a 15 minute fix.  Good luck.. Smile, things could be much worse 

If you do install a heat shield or blanket around your starter, I’ll bet you’ll be the only person here to do that.  

I’m with Alan.  Get a new starter and get it over with.

bigger grounding straps always fixed mine, especially when hot..

I really like the high-torque gear-reduction starters. Love means always being able to crank over 10.6:1 compression, no matter what.

... but I'd be surprised if that was the problem. It's a new-ish car. I'd imagine it's got a new-ish starter. If I'm wrong, I'd definitely not dork around with anything but a gear reduction starter for a 2332. I don't think I am, however.

I think the last time you brought this up, I was pretty adamant about putting new ends on your cables. I had an issue a couple of years ago that almost drove me around the bend. Same deal-- would not crank... sometimes. What I had was a negative cable that was corroded internally, at the battery terminal end. The cable and end were as clean as a whistle, but when I (finally, in desperation) cut the terminal off the cable, it was nothing but white powder inside. I was getting continuity through the cable (or powder, I guess) as long as the load wasn't too high. It started out as a random thing, and progressively got worse until it finally wouldn't go at all. That's when I found it.

Put new terminals on your cables. They cost a buck-fifty at every Friendly Local Auto Parts Store in America. Good luck.  

You can also add a starter relay - $15 or so.  Common on bugs where the starter gets hot.  I had a Porsche 914 and occasionally had to wack starter with a hammer.

Empi has one for <$13

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDe...ductCode=C13-17-2917

So far the consensus is:  starter , heavy ground strap and relay, not too sure where you get intense heat from to need a heat shield though unless you somehow have an exhaust pipe against the starter

Tony, I just read your post again, but I'm not clear on what you're saying.  You seem to say that your fans run for 8 minutes when you shut off the engine.  Since the only application I know of that does that is an electric water pump with fans on a Subaru, I assumed you had a Subi engine.

If you have a VW air-cooled engine, I' stumped how you would have a fan run after engine shutoff.  Can you explain?  Do you have aftermarket electric fans?  Am I reading your post incorrectly?

f you have a VW air-cooled engine, I' stumped how you would have a fan run after engine shutoff.

Just have the oil temp thermostat wired to an always on hot circuit.  It will run until the thermostat opens or the battery dies.

That's exactly how my fan is wired Greg, but it never runs for more than a minute. Maybe two on a REALLY hot day.

I had the problem of getting gas, then no start. Embarrassing to ask strangers to help you pop-start it. Starter would heat-soak, then stop working. Engine and exhaust heat under the Spyder bonnet was the cause. The solution was an IMI-101 gear-reduction starter. Never a problem again.

I have seen Stan's problem before, but not on my car. I did buy new battery cables when I built the new car though. They aren't very expensive, unlike everything else!

I currently have the same problem in Bridget--Suby engine with the IMI starter. I don't think it's getting heat soaked but need to really take a look. I like Stan's problem: weird and rare but logical and easy enough to check.

It’s hard as heck to find, Ed. You can’t use a multimeter because you’ll get continuity through the powder.

Cut the battery terminals off. If it’s bad, it’ll be bad right at the junction. 

The speedster was actually the second vehicle I owned with this issue. The first was a 2003 E350 7.3 powerstroke diesel. That terminal cost me over $1000 before I finally found it.  

You stated that you're getting 14V at the battery with the engine running. That seems a little low.  It tells me that  the Alt. is working but makes me suspect high resistance connections from the Alt. to your battery (or grounds). A new battery should put  out about 12.5V,  at the terminals. You said your new Batt. puts out 12 V. Got some resistance there somewhere.   About 14.7 V would be nice to see at your battery with the engine running.  Since you were humming along with no problems then all of a sudden this problem starts suggests what most guys on here're saying.....bad connections.  Most often it's battery cables and grounding. probably because there're overlooked most often. Just because the look OK doesn't mean they are....................Bruce

A good battery is 12.6 static and running alternator is 13.8.

If there is a next time that you have the no start issue , you can check if it's a ground issue by clamping a single battery jumper cable from the negative on the battery  and the other end to the starter mounting bolt which with a bit of contorting you may be a able to  reach from the right lower side of the fan shroud, then try to crank it.

Tony, I had a similar symptom with my previous VS. On occasion when I turned the ignition key, I could hear the starter click but no other response.

In those instances, I found that if I put the car in 1st gear and rocked it forward & backward, the car would then start as if nothing was wrong. There's probably a technical explanation for this phenomena, but it worked so I just kept on trucking.

Might be worth a try next time you experience this problem (at least until you figure which of the noted technical solutions will cure your issue on a more permanent basis)! 

@Verbieten

Jim, that's a problem with ring gear engagement. Either the ring gear is worn, or the starter gear sometimes. But the solenoids go most often, and are known as a "Bendix". The problem also is the braided wire corrodes on VW/Porsches. That little braided portion that goes from the solenoid to the starter motor is trouble waiting to happen.

I recently had the same recurring no-start on my 23 hp mower. Battery and charging system all good. I had to jump the battery directly to the starter using both leads. Everything LOOKED OK, but they used 10 gauge wire throughout. I didn't even bother to cut the ends off and look for corrosion. I bought new 8 gauge and ends and swapped it out. Spins over nice now, like when it was new.

****Use star washers when connecting ground wires to frame****

 13.8 volts is ideal and anything in excess of 14.2 is overcharging and will destroy the battery.

I think up to 14.5 is OK, but over that and you'll boil the acid out of the battery. 

14.0 to 14.2 is perfect, 13.8 actually undercharges a little in my experience.

Thanks everyone for your very insightful responses - I will keep you all advised as to progress.

Quick explanation.... https://youtu.be/cqs29N9AAP0

tons of videos on how to install relay (15$ solution).  Worth trying before replacing the starter—- ( which you wont regret, as a new starter- Autozone generic or high torque IMI is an awesome upgrade... and part of the madness!!!)

Oop's.......Mistake....I meant 14.2 V.  Times 2 on Danny's suggestion to use STAR LOCK WASHERS ! They should go between the wire terminal and the connection post and or the frame if it's a ground wire.  Another plus is the terminal usually won't spin when you tighten the nut...........Bruce

Re; Star lock washers, which type?  Internal or external?

"Jim, that's a problem with ring gear engagement. Either the ring gear is worn, or the starter gear sometimes. But the solenoids go most often, and are known as a "Bendix". The problem also is the braided wire corrodes on VW/Porsches. That little braided portion that goes from the solenoid to the starter motor is trouble waiting to happen." - Danny P.

Thnx, Danny! I learn something new EVERY TIME I visit this site. 

Here is what I was asking....

Art, a 'star' lock washer is the one labelled 'external' in your photo.

Thanks Mitch.