Stroker project

This guy was my second choice.

 

My first choice was too busy.

 

I don't know where to go now.

 

Also, I was having the parts shipped directly to him.

Well, Michael, sounds like it's time to approach your #1 choice again, hat in hand of course.  Since you mentioned talking to Gene Berg in an earlier post, you've been around the a/c block a time or two, since GB died in '96.  When one door closes, another door opens.  This is just a minor detour.  You'll get the job done. 

Have you tried Petrucci in Farmington?


> On Feb 1, 2015, at 12:07 AM, SpeedsterOwners.com <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

Michael...sorry to say this but I'm glad your builder backed out. I say this from the prospective of a small business owner. You'd spend money, he'd have one customer and about 20 people to answer to according to your expectations / findings.

There's reasons builder #2 dropped out of the picture. They aren't good reasons, but they do exist.

 

From the builders perspective:

• A big, open deck means no potential for piston to head contact if a rod bearing lets go. It's safer for him if something goes wrong and he needs to warrant the work.
• A big open deck means lower static compression ratio, since higher CR works better with a tighter deck. Lower compression ratios are safer from his perspective, since they mean that he won't ever have to deal with a pre-ignition issue. 
• An opinionated customer means the builder will need to explain himself. From his perspective, "I've done it like this for 20 years" should be enough. Requiring explanations mean that you have questioned his competence. He is likely an opinionated guy in a niche market, without a lot of local competition. He sees a knowledgeable customer as a threat. 

I own and operate a small business as well. I agree 100% with Jim Ignacio and Justin. Ultimately, it's your money, and you know what you want. If your ideas are whacked out, a good technician should be able to talk you back from the ledge (without going prima donna on you).

 

In my (technical) small business, my best customers are the ones who are informed enough to make their own decisions, and live with the consequences. My clientele is divided between three classes: those who know nothing and trust me for everything, those who know a little and want to be involved (to one degree or another), and those with a robust and knowledgeable engineering department who are steering the process.

 

I love working with the first, because I'm "Dr. Stan" to those people. The second group is more challenging, because most of what they think they know is wrong. But it's the most fun, and I ALWAYS make the most money with the third-- because when we get into custom stuff (as often happens), the informed customer (the one steering the process) assumes the risk for the decisions made. With customer number one and two, I eat 100% of any issues that might arise.

 

The gray are is between customer number 2 and 3. Some guys think they are the third type, but are barely the second. I'm pretty sure that were the "internet experts" comment came from. A REALLY competent technician/builder/mechanic will offer more than "trust me"-- he'll have good reasons he'd like to do something a certain way. If he's willing to guarantee his work, completed his way (with his parts)-- he's got a legitimate argument. Providing your own parts is a certain way to get no warranty, and yet it's what a lot of guys end up doing. Regardless, a lot of builders won't assume liability even if they build it "their way", and supply all the parts. My opinion is that if you are assuming the liability, you ought to be able to get it done your way. I've done stuff for customers that I knew wouldn't work-- because after I expressed my concerns, they still wanted to go ahead. Having to do it twice (at no risk for me) is just good business. They trusted me a whole lot more after that.

 

I'm the third type of customer as it regards these engines. As long as you are willing to assume liability for the decisions you make, you making them shouldn't be an issue. Of course, this has to happen in a climate of mutual respect. But ultimately, it's your money-- and there are builders out there that will build what you want.

That's the thing, even if he couldn't explain why he wanted to do it his way, he could have just said "we can do it your way but it'll be without warranty" or "that's a change order so it'll be X amount additional charge". Either way he's money ahead. Now I can understand from a reputation standpoint why the first one could be problematic and should be avoided. But the suddeness of it and seeming with no effort made to argue the point just makes me paranoid. So here's my wild, baseless accusation: He used a flimsy excuse to break their deal knowing he can still make money in less time and with less effort by extorting Michael for overpriced shipping costs to get all his stuff back.

I will be able to drive to his place to pick the parts up if he signs for them and accepts delivery.

 

There have been several instances where what he wanted to do differed from what everyone else seems to favor.

 

First, he was really pushing a 2007 engine when I wanted a 2110.

 

Second, he wanted to use Chevy journals where others would still use VW for 2110.

 

Third, he insisted 5.4" rods are for 2007 and 5.5" rods are for 2110. I went ahead and ordered the 5.5" rods.

 

Then, there was the issue with combustion chamber volume and deck height.

 

I am thinking of taking the job to a guy who races formula Vs and also builds engines.

 

There aren't a lot of semi-local options.

Most Formula V guys end up (if they race a lot) doing their own work and most of those guys are pretty good (at least the ones I usually came across in New England).  

 

Most of them have several engines that they juggle during the season to keep themselves on the track while keeping good engines in the pipeline.  They have similar issues to those that we see all the time so he should be familiar with what we (you) are talking about  -  we're all cut from the same cloth.

 

Hope he works out.

 

(and now that I think of it, putting Danny P's engine into a Formula car would be the BOMB!)

What are the chances this builder is reading this thread?

I think no chance.

Well this thread has definitely been informative for many. Bottom line you are not having a motor built that doesn't fit your desires and performance.

if you have deep pockets call on jake raby in Georgia. Maybe ask Stan who built his stuff. And the third option is to have someone on the west coast build and ship it to you. the best part of this exercise is that you either are totally confused by everyone's input or you have a much better knowledge and understanding what fits your application. 

Michael, meet Anthony. Anthony, this is Michael.

 

Anthony's a good good ACVW mechanic in central CA. He did a PPI on a '64 bus in Nevada City for me a few years ago on Terry Nuckels' recommendation. He did exactly what I asked of him, which I greatly appreciated.

 

FWIW, I don't even attempt to get special stuff done locally. Everybody's got a different way of doing it, but I've been using Blackline Racing in Salt Lake for my work. It's Art Tharen's old shop, now run by a young guy named Justin McCallister. He's done some pretty "out there" stuff for me, and I've never been let down by his work. They have machine tools (a lathe and a couple of Bridgeport mills) and an in-house dyno, along with a hot tank, etc. Everybody knew Art for carbs, but they really were/are a complete ACVW engine shop.

 

I built a crate for the engines, and LTL trucking runs about $150 each way, which seems pretty inconsequential in the big scheme of things.

Michael--what a hassle for you my friend. I was totally confused about half way through the thread and must say that I felt you knew a lot more than your so-called builder when it came to what you want and why you want something.

 

I believe you were looking at a Type I engine which Jake has stopped building.  He is still the master when it comes to the Type IV and I have to add that my experience dealing with him was nothing but a treat.  In fact I ended up with a good friend who answers my questions long after doing my build.  The feeling that someone is first understanding your driving style then designing around that is priceless.  You can have a Trpe IV and add maybe just 20-25 pounds for anvil-like reliability and truly care free usage.  He's not for everyone either by temperment or price but for me working with him was a joy.

 

Whatever you do, I wish you the best!    

I appreciate everyone's contribution to the discussion.

 

If I was using all new parts I might consider using someone far away.

 

Because I am modifying my current engine it seemed best to do it local.

 

I am a little nervous about being able to get some miles on it before driving to Carlisle. I had hoped to get started on the build a month or two ago.

 

The only confusion was because the last builder suggested different things from everyone else.

Relieved to hear that. Heard too many horror stories of people butting heads with their builder and getting screwed.

Guy must really like his 0.160" barrel spacers.

Does anyone have an opinion on ACN Heavy Duty Aluminum Pushrods?

It depends.

 

Are you building a big-valve, dual valve spring, large displacement monster engine, or just something to get you to and from "Cars and Coffee"??

 

If the former and you want it to be quieter than using Cromoly steel rods, then go with the ACN's

 

If the latter and you just want to sneak up on the other C&C folks and not be heard above the clatter of valve noise to tip them off that you have an air-cooled engine under the covers, then go with the ACN's.

 

If neither of these apply, then use the Cromoly or plain old, stock, aluminum push rods.

 

Any of the above will work just fine.  Some make a tad more noise than others, and some cost a whole lot more than others.  All will work.

Well I don't know that it is a monster engine I am building - 2110cc, larger than stock valves, dual springs.

Use them.

I've got an unused set I'd sell, uncut and ready for install. PM me if interested.

Alum pushrods are great.    You need to know what your valve spring pressure is. These work fine on most street motors. If you have multi springs you must know what the pushrod limit is. Best people to discuss pushrods with are Smith brothers in Oregon.  Google them for a link. Don't order these until you pre assembled the motor and you know what length you need.

Compared to a stock (or even lightly warmed over) 1600, your 2110 is a monster!

 

ACN's aluminum pushrods will work with most (if not all) VW size dual springs. Chromoly pushrods are heavier (taking more spring pressure to control) and don't grow with the engine at the same rate as it warms up; hence the need to set them at "loose zero", and when the engine gets hot they still clatter. Al

 

PS- As Anthony said, don't buy pushrods until engine has been mocked up and you know length (unless you're buying them unassembled).

I am getting ready to mount my Setrab oil cooler.

 

What is the best orientation?

 

I read in another thread that if the connections are on the side the inlet should be the lower one.

 

What about having the connections on the bottom?

 

Also, when doing an oil change is oil trapped in the cooler? It seems like the thermostat thing would prevent it from draining.

 

On another note, when my 1776 was disassembled pitted lifters and failed air flap thermostat were found.

 

I used Brad Penn break in oil initially and Brad Penn regular oil after.

Orientation is for air purge: http://www.utxchange.com/faq/s...allation-guidelines/

The thermostat can't prevent drain back because it never blocks the oil cooler from the engine. At low temp the valve is open and all 4 ports are connected to each other (looks like an H). Because this means the oil cooler inlet and outlet are connected together with no pressure differential no oil flows through the cooler. The oil just takes the easy way out and does a U-turn back to the engine.

At high temp, the valve closes and separates the cooler's inlet and outlet (looks like | |). This forces the oil to take the long way around and go through the cooler. But the engine outlet/cooler inlet and cooler outlet/engine inlet are always connected together regardless of temp, hence no way to stop draining.

Pitted lifters after a proper break-in would indicate to me that the faces were improperly hardened.

I'll ditto Justin's statement on the lifters.....  at one time "bad" lifters were common and you had no choice but to go for the EXPENSIVE ONES....  That said, you seem to have gotten a reasonable life span (?) out of your build....

The lifters were ones I got from Gene Berg more than 30 years ago. I don't know if this was "at one time".

 

I am going to replace them with Engle lifters to go with my Engle cam (which fortunately still looks OK).

 

The reasonable life span was just over 3000 miles.

 

If I wasn't doing the stroker project I wouldn't have known about them and probably would have developed further problems.

 

Does air get into the cooler when the car is parked?

 

How much oil does the somewhat square Setrab with fan hold?

 

Thanks for your comments.

Justin, I have a Mocal sandwich with thermostat.  Does it work the same way?

I have the same cooler. I am assuming that its about a quart with the lines and all.

I also assume all that oil will drain back to the motor after sitting.

Wouldn't you sometimes be pumping air into the engine if that happens?

Setrab oil cooler capacity: http://www.setrabusa.com/pdf/P...apacities_112610.pdf

Example: series 1, 19 row = 0.055 gallons

-8 hose holds about 0.01 gallons per foot.

26mm oil pump at idle produces about 1.5 gallons per minute.

So with say 10 feet of hose you'd fill everything in 6 seconds absolute worst case of a brand new dry install. If your gauge/warning light says you've got pressure you're good. If you're that concerned about drain back just mount it both ports up.


Yes, the mocal sandwich plate works the same way. Cold, bypass is open, cooler inlet / outlet and top / bottom of plate all connected together. Oil just flows straight through top to bottom into filter and back to engine. Hot, bypass is closed, oil flows into top, forced out to cooler, down into filter, up into engine.

In another thread someone (Jan, I think) posted a diagram that would cut power to the oil cooler fan when starting the engine. It involved a connection to the coil wire.

 

I am installing a hard start relay to take load off the ignition switch. I think connecting the cooler fan to the same relay would accomplish the same thing.

 

Any comments?

 

 

That would make the fan run anytime the key was not in the crank position. As in, even when the engine was off.

 

To do it, a relay for the cooler fan would have to pull power from switched power, not the battery. You'd need a separate relay, you couldn't do it from the hard-start relay.

 

Oil cooler relay:

86: to ignition switch #50

85: ground

30: to switched power at fuse box, (Terminal 15), stock VW black wires.

87: not connected

87a: to oil cooler fan

 

You could also use 87a on a similarly connected relay to feed the headlights. That would cut them off during cranking too. Whether you power it from the battery or switched power would depend on if you want your headlights available with the key on or not.

Thanks for pointing out my error. I see also that I should have labeled 85 ground.

 

I suppose the fan would eventually shut off when the oil cooled down.

 

Maybe this would be a good feature to cool the oil after I park :-)

Michael, why are you worried about the fan coming on when you start your car?  Besides, if you have your fan relay on the 'out' side of of the oil cooler (where it should be), the chances of the oil still being hot enough to cause the fan come go on are pretty slim, unless you restart your car right after you turn it off.

 

I wasn't until someone suggested in another thread that it would be better if the fan was off when starting a hot car.

Michael, I'm running a Mesa 72 row cooler, oil thermostat and fan switch on the output of the cooler and I've found that when I return to the car after a short period the fan does not come on.

The way Pearl is wired for my oil cooler fan, it is relay driven and energized by the oil temp thermostat, so it comes on whenever the oil exiting the cooler is over 180F, but the whole shebang is tied in to my ignition switch so the fan shuts down (if running) whenever I turn off the key.  That also means that with the engine off, if the cooler and fan switch are over 180F while sitting and I turn on the key, the starter and fan both run.  No big deal.

 

Seems to work OK for me.

Me too.  I've restarted my 'hot' engine dozens of times, with the fan on, with zero problems.

If your electrical system is working as it should there shouldn't be a concern.

 

My VS came with a Mesa 72 cooler and thermostat-controlled fan.

 

For the first few months, the fan would cycle on and off, and in hot weather, would stay on for a few minutes after I shut the engine off. This really didn't help the engine any, as once the engine stopped, it cooled down the oil in the cooler, not the oil around the heads.

 

After a few months, the fan never ran after shut-down, and I suspected it wasn't running at all. I didn't know if the fan or the thermostat had died, but I watched the oil temp and it never climbed too high.

 

When I put a new engine in, I didn't bother with a thermostat for the fan. I just ran it to a toggle switch under the dash (after first hooking it up to a relay as should have been done in the first place).

 

This has the advantages of:

 

- not having to spec a thermostat

- not having to buy a thermostat

- not having to install a thermostat

- not worrying about whether the thermostat is in the right location

- not worrying about whether the thermostat is working

- not having to replace the thermostat when it fails

 

But there are other advantages, too.

 

Now, I get to turn the fan on when I want and off when I want. Like, if it's hot out and the engine's not quite warm enough for the fan, but I'm coming to a long, steep hill that I know will eventually require the fan, I can turn the fan on before I get to the hill and give the cooler a head start at doing its work.

 

Of course, this means I have to take an active role in driving the car. It means I have to pay attention to the engine temperature, think, and act accordingly. But I think that's really what this car is all about, anyway. It's not like, if I had a thermostat, I could just forget about how I ran the engine or about how hot it was running.

 

But the coolest thing, is that I get to have and manage a toggle switch. There was a time when all cool cars had toggle switches. The coolest dudes of all, the Italians, took it a step further and didn't even label their toggle switches. If you were a man, you knew what your toggle switches did.

 

When the definitive and final history of the automobile is written, the beginning of the end of cool car design will indisputably be recorded as the day they took the toggle switches off the E-Type Jaguar.

 

Well, I've got a toggle switch, dammit, and I know how to use it.