Stupidity

Use the opportunity to replace that ugly vw shroud with another one that looks the part  .

I thought about that but I think the stock shroud cools better and I don't think the thermostat vanes fit in the shroud you show.

With a quality 36 shroud that has the correct internal design you do not need the vane -thermostat set up.

I am also wondering if my Vintage Speed center-pull carb linkage would clear the heat outlets.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

I thought about that but I think the stock shroud cools better and I don't think the thermostat vanes fit in the shroud you show.

Talk to Clark Callis, Michael. I've got a 36 hp doghouse shroud and vanes/thermostat in the 2110. He can set you up, if that's what you want.

... and I'm super-sorry for the trouble.

@Stan Galat, I asked Clark about that but haven't heard back yet.

I first asked him about a stock shroud or fixing my damaged shroud.

With the 36 hp shroud, I am still slightly concerned about cooling and more concerned about if my Vintage Speed linkage will work with it.

I know that there are a lot of people who swear by stock tin, and I get it.

The setup I've got on the 2110 (not on the other motors) is an Awesome Powdercoat supplied Scat 36 hp (although the EMPI is just  as good) doghouse with stock VW flaps, modified sled tin, and a Mexican thermostat (that fails the wrong way). I've got the shroud modified to accept a T4 oil cooler on the stand, and OG cylinder tin. I've got all the little this-'n-thats that nobody uses.

It works really well. It was 98* the last time I took the car out, and everything stayed cool and comfy.

Your mileage may vary.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

@Stan Galat, I asked Clark about that but haven't heard back yet.

I first asked him about a stock shroud or fixing my damaged shroud.

With the 36 hp shroud, I am still slightly concerned about cooling and more concerned about if my Vintage Speed linkage will work with it.

My Vintage Speed Linkage worked just fine:

@Stan Galat & @Robert M, OK, you guys have pretty much convinced me to go with the 36 hp. shroud.

Thanks for your contributions to the discussion.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

@Stan Galat & @Robert M, OK, you guys have pretty much convinced me to go with the 36 hp. shroud.

Thanks for your contributions to the discussion.

For what it's worth Michael those are Weber 44 IDF carburetors. I don't think the carburetors you're running should matter but I don't know much about those things. I just thought I'd let you know in case it does.

@Robert M, I have Weber DCNF carbs and my manifolds may be lower than yours which would improve the clearance.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

@Robert M, I have Weber DCNF carbs and my manifolds may be lower than yours which would improve the clearance.

I agree. The 36hp shroud can certainly be fitted with flaps/thermostat. I also am pretty sure the 36hp shroud is narrower than your existing shroud, so you should gain clearance.

P.S. You're not stupid. Things sometimes happen when you're getting stuff done. This is an opportunity to get a cool-looking shroud, that works.

I'm just glad you weren't injured when that happened.  Things can happen in an instance that you pay for, for a long time.

I'll confess "we" had similar incident 4 years ago when a friend here " helped" as I was pulling engine and the rear jack stand tipped doing the shroud damage as Mike has too. No matter how careful we are, in haste things can and do happen ~

I feel better now knowing I am not the only one this happened to.

I still need to get the car back in position. I may not try to swing the back over. I may just leave it skewed until the wheels are on the floor.

Maybe I have removed the shroud when the engine was under the car.

I did too much of this job in haste.  When I was trying to pull the engine back away from the trans. I discovered the heater box cables were still attached. Then I discovered the hoses were still attached to the valve cover vents.  The last time I pulled the engine I didn't have valve cover vents.

My wife totally doesn't understand the need for making "improvements" to the car.  She is pretty disturbed about all of this. Fortunately, the topic of related money spent hasn't come up.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

I thought about that but I think the stock shroud cools better and I don't think the thermostat vanes fit in the shroud you show.

I was going to suggest you get a repro Thing shroud like mine. It definitely works with Clark’s stuff.
https://www.jbugs.com/product/...cs7P3JQaAk4tEALw_wcB

...........My wife totally doesn't understand the need for making "improvements" to the car.  She is pretty disturbed about all of this. Fortunately, the topic of related money spent hasn't come up.    Limited disclosure is always best and minimizes the senseless pending verbal volley.

I'm glad you didn't get hurt, Michael. When I had the body off of my IM, I tipped it onto the driver side front fender while fiddling with the cart. Fortunately no cracks. It happens in a second.

My wife came from a blue-collar family. Even though mom was a nurse and dad was a factory worker for the great yellow father, they would often run out of money before they ran out of week.

My family wasn't like that. Those of us who were tradesmen always had an eye toward hanging out our own shingle - nobody wanted to be a wageman. I thought I did, but as I got further down the road the more I got really restless. Those of you who really know me - can you even imagine me working for somebody else? Yeah, me neither, but I did. For 10 years I did.

When I took the plunge in 1997, Mrs. Galat had one request: "just give me a check every month. Please don't talk business with me - I know I can't handle it". She wanted the same amount, enough to cover household expenses, and a bit left for her to dispose of as she would.

In the beginning, there was no extra for "Stan's fun project"s - but by 2000, there was a pretty healthy surplus after all of the obligations (including an aggressively funded 401K, health insurance, college savings, etc.). I asked if I might have a fun car, and Jeanie said, "Sure. Anything but a Corvette. Don't be that guy". I was crestfallen, because what I wanted was a C2 'vette.

As fate would have it, I saw a Vintage Speedster on the cover of Kit Car magazine, and was bitten by the bug. They were just a VW Beetle, under the skin. How expensive could they be, anyhow?

Fast forward 10 years or so, and I'm on my third car and am building my second engine for the third one. I found out exactly how expensive they could be, anyhow.

Jeanie never asked, and I never told. I made sure there was the agreed upon (adjusted) amount in her account every month, and she was happy. Though thick, thin, fat, lean, broken, strong -  that check is always there, and she's never complained about the car. Even when I built an entire house around a lift for it, she was OK- as long as the check was there.

She's my closest confidant now, and I discuss business with her all the time - but she's still very, very hands off... and so am I. The trick is in not crawling around in her books, and she's OK not crawling around in mine. I care not if she spent $500 on high-end artist's paint brushes, and she's not asking how much it costs to ship twin-plug heads to Denmark.

FWIW, all of this stuff pales in comparison to what it costs to build stuff (garages, houses, etc.) anyhow, and the return on investment is way better.

Separate accounts. It's been a really good thing in our marriage.

Separate bank accounts are a good thing for us too.

If you think aircooled VW stuff is expensive, you don't want to know how much watercooled P-taxed stuff is!

Currently looking into rebuilding my 3.4 Cayman S(295hp) motor into a 3.8(380hp plus). Even if I do the work, the parts cost almost as much as I paid for the whole car.

Here's an example: Billet VW forged connecting rods run about $400 a set, so $100 each. The Cayman factory rods are known for stretch/failure, they are not forged. New aftermarket rods are $1200 a set, so $200 each. That's really not bad for what you get, as that is the weak link of the M97 engine.

Complete gasket set, new main and rod bearings, new water pump and new case bolts is $4000-5000 dollars. Hope your crankshaft is good, because they can't be reground(no undersize bearings available). I don't want to know about new, a used one is $3000. Yep.

Cylinder wear is another biggie. Send your case halves to LN Engineering, and they'll machine the old out and install new billet aluminum with Nikasil coating for over $5k. At least that comes with new custom pistons. And a 6 month wait.

I haven't even talked about cylinder heads yet, they have 4 valves per cylinder and 24 hydraulic lifters...

The last thing is the tools to do the work, which are specialized and expensive. Of course.

A bone-stock rebuild(by a reputable company) is 13k.

She'll never know unless y'all tell her.

@DannyP posted:

If you think aircooled VW stuff is expensive, you don't want to know how much watercooled P-taxed stuff is!

You want to get into serious P taxed parts, start looking at performance aircooled 911 parts...  I just built a 3.8L out of a 993 donor.  GT3 oil pump, Ti retainers, RSR cams, 50mm PMO carbs, backdate rockers and heads (964 mechanical stuff), and the list goes on.  Parts bill alone, excluding the $25k donor motor, was over $40K.  P-car HP is NUTS!  But it's OH-SO FUN.

@Stan Galat posted:

My wife came from a blue-collar family. Even though mom was a nurse and dad was a factory worker for the great yellow father, they would often run out of money before they ran out of week.

My family wasn't like that. Those of us who were tradesmen always had an eye toward hanging out our own shingle - nobody wanted to be a wageman. I thought I did, but as I got further down the road the more I got really restless. Those of you who really know me - can you even imagine me working for somebody else? Yeah, me neither, but I did. For 10 years I did.

When I took the plunge in 1997, Mrs. Galat had one request: "just give me a check every month. Please don't talk business with me - I know I can't handle it". She wanted the same amount, enough to cover household expenses, and a bit left for her to dispose of as she would.

In the beginning, there was no extra for "Stan's fun project"s - but by 2000, there was a pretty healthy surplus after all of the obligations (including an aggressively funded 401K, health insurance, college savings, etc.). I asked if I might have a fun car, and Jeanie said, "Sure. Anything but a Corvette. Don't be that guy". I was crestfallen, because what I wanted was a C2 'vette.

As fate would have it, I saw a Vintage Speedster on the cover of Kit Car magazine, and was bitten by the bug. They were just a VW Beetle, under the skin. How expensive could they be, anyhow?

Fast forward 10 years or so, and I'm on my third car and am building my second engine for the third one. I found out exactly how expensive they could be, anyhow.

Jeanie never asked, and I never told. I made sure there was the agreed upon (adjusted) amount in her account every month, and she was happy. Though thick, thin, fat, lean, broken, strong -  that check is always there, and she's never complained about the car. Even when I built an entire house around a lift for it, she was OK- as long as the check was there.

She's my closest confidant now, and I discuss business with her all the time - but she's still very, very hands off... and so am I. The trick is in not crawling around in her books, and she's OK not crawling around in mine. I care not if she spent $500 on high-end artist's paint brushes, and she's not asking how much it costs to ship twin-plug heads to Denmark.

FWIW, all of this stuff pales in comparison to what it costs to build stuff (garages, houses, etc.) anyhow, and the return on investment is way better.

Separate accounts. It's been a really good thing in our marriage.

Michael--so much great support and input.  You are one of the most stalwart DIY guys on the forum and I salute you for that.  My sympathy for this mishap.  Have you considered Jake Raby's solution to upgrading the cooling fan?  Looks unlike a VW bug part and works.  Good luck getting past this issue my friend--I am certain you will!

(Loved Stan's post, above.  The man can write.)

Keep talking guys. I’m starting to feel better about what I’m paying for my Type 4.

@Michael McKelvey- Sorry to see this happen to you, Michael.  I'm just glad no one got hurt and it wasn't worse.  You'll get it back together and (in time) it will be nothing more than a laughable memory.   As people have said, we've all had those "what was I thinking?!" moments- work around cars for long enough and things happen.

I know that at least some repro 36 hp fan shrouds come with directional vanes inside and guys (as here) report them cooling as well as a doghouse shroud.  They are the same width, look period correct and with a little work will take thermostat flaps.

@Michael McKelvey do you mind explaining what happened with the Quickjacks?  Did they start out parallel to each other?  Did they slide on the floor?  Did they tip?

The reason for the questions is that I have one ordered.

@550 Phil posted:

Keep talking guys. I’m starting to feel better about what I’m paying for my Type 4.

I'm starting to think I got a bargain when I bought all the 911 suspension, brakes, steering, 915 transaxle, and all other associated parts for my IM6 build, and got a 993 engine thrown in, all for $13,000 a few years ago.

@Jack Crosby, I am not aware of the Raby cooling fan upgrade.  Can you tell me where I could find out more about it?

@James, what happened was totally unrelated to the QuickJack.  Before starting the work the car was on the QuickJack. I then raised the front slightly and put it on jack stands.  To raise the rear I used a small bottle jack placed at the end of the tunnel.  The bottle jack was now the only support at the rear.

When I was pulling the engine to the side to try to get it through the wheel opening it caught on something. This pulled the car sideways, tipping over the bottle jack and as the car rotated, the front jack stands tipped over. The rear of the car came down on the engine shroud and the front came down on the QuickJack.

The engine was tilted sideways at about a 30-degree angle. I now think my oil leak was from the disconnected valve cover vent.

I am hoping I don't have damage to the underside of the car.

I agree about Stan's writing ability.

@Michael McKelvey Thank you for the explanation!  I am sorry this happened to you, but thankfully you were not hurt.  Things can be repaired and maybe even improved, that's always fun. 

Actually, I was slightly injured just before this happened.  As I was lowering the engine I stupidly had my hand on the side of the jack.  As the engine was coming down 2 fingers got pinched.  With my other hand, I had to quickly rotate the jack handle and pump it up to free my hand. The fingers are still sore.

I find it easier to pull the alternator and shroud because of clearance issues once the engine is lowered down. Since I can't drop the engine without pulling the dell 40's anyway just taking the few minutes to pull the shroud gives me a ton more room sliding it out from the body. Car is on 4 jack stands---no quick jack yet.

Michael, stuff like this happens to everyone who works on cars - I think someone already mentioned this, but it bears repeating:

Stuff like this happens to everyone who works on cars.

The important thing is that you weren’t seriously hurt beyond your pinched fingers and pride.  I’ve known mechanics who have been messed up in all sorts of ways over the years by things falling on them or flipping around at them or things breaking off and launching at them in a fit of pure spite.  One guy escaped totally unharmed, but the car he was working on fell off the single-post lift it was on, landing on it’s side in the space between garage bays (on the opposite side of the lift from where he was).  Thank God, they made single post lifts illegal around here (I probably would have tried to buy one if they hadn’t ).

Some day, years from now, you’ll look back on this and realize that you made it to that ripe old age in spite of what happened along the way.  I may start a whole ‘nuther thread on just that!

Yeah, I guess it is comforting to know I am not the only one.

The car is back on the QuickJacks, although still skewed in the garage. I think I will not try to swing the back over until the wheels are back on and the car is on the floor.

I have thought about removing the shroud while the engine is still under the car. But, it is so much easier to work on when it is out from under the car. I only need to lift the back about 5".

It is interesting how much conversation my mishap has prompted.

I've pulled a bunch of motors.

The way I've done it with rear-engine aircooled cars is to leave the front wheels on the ground. The highest I've had the front wheels is on those little wheel dollies, then they're maybe 2 inches off the ground. But even so, the front suspension is compressed with the weight of the car, keeping the back end higher.

This way, the back is high enough to remove the engine when stands are under the rear torsion tube. I place the engine on a dolly and roll it out

WOW! Glad you weren't seriously injured by that mishap, Michael. It's happened to all of us that have spent any time with DIY car projects. Luckily it appears to be simple to repair and relatively inexpensive.

"My wife totally doesn't understand the need for making 'improvements' to the car.  She is pretty disturbed about all of this. Fortunately, the topic of related money spent hasn't come up." - @Michael McKelvey

I know I may sound like a boring record about my MUSBJIM frame-of-mind regarding my Speedster, but if my wife even cared to ask about my Speedster expenditures the answer would be "...well, in the 7 years (and 47,000 miles & smiles) since I've bought the current VS the only expense I've incurred has been the 7 oil-changes, 4 tune-ups and a clutch cable".

I was able to buy a car lift demo unit at SEMA.  I bought it for car storage.  Later, I found the lift made pulling type 1 motors safer as the car is always on 4 wheels and stable.  Once the motor is separated from the transaxle the car is lifted out of the way.  I was never comfortable with the jackstands and floor jack balancing thing.  I always had somebody spotting when taking that approach.

Car lifts today, if you have the right flooring, space & oh yeah budget, are super tools.  The unit I got 4 ton capacity, 4 posts, 110v, does not require floor anchors, came with casters and drip trays.   I've had it for 12 years (knock on wood) without hiccup.

@Ewatub, I totally agree that a lift would make the job easier and safer.

When the woman across the street got divorced her husband left a lift behind.  She didn't use it for cars. She just used it to get 2 levels of stuff storage.

I really wanted to roll it across the street.

Now she has sold the house and moved away.  I don't know if she left the lift behind for the new owners.

I haven't been able to convince my wife that a lift is essential. I thought she would like being able to put her car inside in the winter.  To store a car I would have to modify the garage ceiling and roof trusses.

Funny how different couples work out the best way to handle money. We celebrated our 49th this year. The first year we had separate checking accounts.

We've shared an account since then with the philosophy that all of our money belongs to both of us. There have been years when she made a lot more than I did and vice versa. She set up her own business when our son was born and after a few years became the full time home manager as my career did better.

Until I retired, we had a monthly budget that included an equal amount of discretionary allowance for both of us. As much of the budget as possible went into our son's college account and my retirement account.

Now, our agreement is that we just let each other know when we were going to spend more than $100 on a discretionary thing. Capital or large spending is planned out together years in advance (house painting, bathroom remodels, reroofing, trips, etc). Unplanned spending is discussed as it comes up.

The recent cost of a new starter for the speedster was one of those unplanned spends. She expressed unhappiness about how long the speedster was out of circulation while I did the repair.

She was almost tapping her feet at me yesterday because she was READY to get out of the house and take a ride. I see that as the best support I could want for owning one of our little cars.

We eventually ended up at Maui Brewing on the hill overlooking the south coast, drinking our favorite beverages (Big Swell IPA for me, chardonnay for her), eating happy hour food, and watching dozens of visitors enjoying their trips to paradise.

I'm a lucky guy...

My wife Connie thinks nothing of working with me for hours on end in the garage, wiring, installing windshields, tops, seats and more. Getting greasy, inhaling paint & exhaust fumes, pointing to tools I just laid down and can't find, listening to me invent new four-letter words and phrases and keeping my glass full too. She rarely say's a peep about car expenses and just the other day say's,..... "Isn't about time you buy another bike for yourself" ? ..........That my friend's is both rare and priceless.

Michelle routinely helps me in the shop when I ask her. She helped wire under the dash, and will hand me tools when I'm lying on my back. We put the motor and trans in together. She always helps me with brake bleeds too. The help is very much appreciated.

As to the finances, we have multiple accounts. We have a joint house account and individuals also. And like Stan, what's mine is Michelle's and vice-versa. I always share how much I'm spending on stuff, but like Stan, as long as the bus keeps going, she doesn't concern herself with the details.

When I retired, I had been looking at Caymans for a year. When I showed her the one that I eventually bought, she said "Why don't you buy that? You deserve a retirement gift to yourself."

That right there is gold. Pure gold.