Subaru Motor

That's an interesting question. I did a "backyard" conversion this time last year and installed a junkyard EJ22 engine in my elderly IM. Total cost was under $3K. It works pretty well and I put about 12,000 miles on it last year. Now...my engine is very basic...Megajolt ignition with a single two bbl Weber carb in the center. No fancy exhaust either...about $150 for mine in total. Want a real nice rebuilt engine ? Add about $2,500. Insist on FI ? add about $1,000. That's mostly for the harness etc. Need a fancy exhaust to look at...maybe $500 and up if you really want to impress the troops. Need shiney chrome bits on the engine ?   Who knows $$$. This is if you do the work yourself and it'll come with zero warrantee. If you need a respected builder to do a real nice job for you, loosen up your wallet and be prepared to wait a bit. They are nice engines and you'll have heat, not that you'll need heat very often in Jacksonville.

Listening to David one would think the conversion is easy.  It isn't.

It was easy for David because he's a DIV type of guy, with lots of Knowledge and fabrication skills.

TR, if you can do most of the work yourself it can be an inexpensive (relatively speaking) project.  If you have to pay someone to do most of the work it can become very expensive.

Jake Raby sells an awesome conversion kit, which includes everything, but the price is (for me) staggering.  His kit, which included a high performance, non turbo Subaru engine, and Subaru transmission will set you back around $25,000, not including installation.

TR, Since you live in Florida and Don't need much heat and a good middle ground would be a T-4 built by Raby instead of the Subaru Conversion.  That will only cost ten smackers.  I don't mean to sound facetious but that's a far cry from $25,000.  Jack Crosby went this route and I think he is Pretty happy.  Like Ron said, having some one else doing Fabrication(air to water) will be very expensive and difficult afterwards.  

TDR:  Don't go nuts over that price - that is about as high as you can possibly go for a conversion kit and seems like a hell of a lot of money.

I was at a local salvage yard a couple of weeks ago and they had a 3-year-old Subaru engine sitting there waiting to be delivered.  I've been dealing with this yard for 45 years and they're a no-BS kind of place.  The tag on the engine said it came from a car that had been badly hit in the rear quarter (severely bent frame) and had just over 47K miles on it.  I asked what they were getting for it and the counter guy said $1,800 - including the ECU and harness would bring it up to $2,100 delivered within 25 miles.  

Dave Stroud can provide pricing on the other stuff, but everything else you would need would come in under $1K, so if you are moderately handy, you could upgrade to an EFI Subaru for under $3,500, or about half the cost of an aircooled T-1 and 1/4'th the cost of a Raby T-4.  Not knocking either of those engines, just giving you honest numbers.

gn

Gordon, you over estimate the moderately handy part.  Yes, the parts are cheap but guys like you and David have real skills and tools that are needed.  An alternate to a High Performance Raby conversion would be to find a guy or shop that has done Vanagon conversions.  Go with mostly stock parts and you maybe able to do a nice job for under 10K including labor.    

Remember, some of us don't tinker much and don't want to be under a car fixing their mistakes.   My driving season is short and the garage is cold from November to late March.   I would love to see more guys give it a go so we can see the outcomes.       

Yes, and I think you guys should also act like a gang of roaming gypsies, stopping in areas of the midwest doing your thing for free food and beer :-)

I'm going to try to tread really lightly here-- because I'm a retro-grouch who's biases and opinions are well known to long-time SOC veterans, and because discussions of money on this site always seem to descend into places that aren't really productive to go. I'm hoping I can throw a couple of things into the mix that might provide some clarity.

The weak link for 99% of the people trying to enjoy these cars is the power-train. The original concept of using a Type 1 VW platform for mechanicals was genius back in the 70s when Frank Resiner designed the first speedster replica. At that time, there were many tens of thousands of beetles running around, and at least one "foreign" (VW) shop in every town in America. Stuff was stupid-cheap, and nobody expected as much from their cars mechanically.

That was then, and this is now. 50 hp isn't so fun after a couple of years, and in many swaths of this land there hasn't been an ACVW on the road for useful transportation in 25 years. VWs used to burn to the ground with regularity-- and even when they didn't, they oxidized into powder in less than 10 years. There's never been an ACVW with decent heat. VWs are still used in niches out west, but east of the Rockies they are obsolete novelties.

Guys like Vince M. don't want to talk about mechanical stuff on this site because they don't have to. Guys in most places besides So-Cal HAVE to know and care about this stuff, or their cars will just become garage-art.

Still-- the replica speedsters held their appeal everywhere (not just in Kalifornia), even as the platform they were built upon on became increasingly obsolete everywhere else.

There are 3 commonly used power-train families used in 90% these cars: Type 1, Type 4, and Subaru 4.

The Type 1 is still far-and-away the most common, because the aftermarket is still reasonably robust, and because they lend the illusion of being economical. The problem here is that the law that says, "affordable, powerful, reliable- pick any 2" is immutable. Almost everybody defaults to picking "affordable" and "powerful", and the cars become something of a fair-weather toy to be enjoyed within 30 miles of your front door. A "reliable" and "powerful" Type 1 is not inexpensive. Horsepower/dollar, it's certainly more expensive than a small-block Chevy or Ford, and probably approaching the Porsche end of the register. Even with an essentially unlimited budget, and a willingness to go well beyond "normal" or even "rational", a big Type 1 remains more highly-strung than most guys are willing to live with. I really like this, as I tend to favor stuff that is at the end of it's evolutionary cycle, but most guys can't live with it at all. Even I am in the process of detuning to some extent in an effort to give up some h/p for a bit of reliability. There's a sweet-spot with a Type 1, and it's about $8K and 130 hp.

A Type 4 is quite a bit more reliable as long as a guy doesn't reach much beyond the 150 hp range-- but it's not cheap either. Type 4 stuff was never as plentiful as Type 1, and there are probably less than 100 guys in the world who specialize in them. That being said, at least the air-cooled Porsche shops will work on them, as they are 914 engines. They resolve many Type 1 issues, and parts are generally of better (and more expensive) quality. If I'd have had a lick of sense, I'd have just written the big-checks all at once, and done a big Type 4. Rich D. has a 2.8L Type 4, and I can tell you from experience that it is an awesome thing, and certainly WAY more reliable than my (claimed) 200 hp Type 1 ever was. Still, they are old-skool air-cooled, and require monitoring head and oil temperatures closely, provide no heat, and generally give off a retro-racer kind of vibe. You can't just jump in and drive "anywhere"-- you plan, and take some spares.

The Subaru is not like the other options at all. It's modern, powerful, and inexpensive laying there in the salvage yard. However, if a guy wishes to retain all of the modern goodies (EFI, etc.) they are far-and-away the most complicated of these power-trains to install in a speedster. I'm sure there will be dispute about this, but it's the truth. The wiring harness alone is a nightmare, as systems in modern automobiles have become more and more integrated with each other. Keeping that factory EFI map, and OBD2 capability might mean you need to rat-hole instrumentation from the dashboard of the donor car somewhere inside your retro-appearing Speedster. You have to figure out where/how you're going to mount stuff, and where you're going to adapt to the VW running-gear (Porsche transaxle? VW? Subaru with a special R/P?). A water-pumper can provide real heat in the cabin, but that requires a bunch of fabrication too. David S.'s way of doing this is really, really smart IMHO-- sacrifice all of the electronic wizardry that provides instant start-ups in any weather, etc, but retain the excellent mechanical reliability of a modern Japanese power-plant. Yeah, it's got carbs (and the attendant idle-jet issues, etc.), but it's as simple as this installation can get. He could always put his throttle body back on, and control it with mega-squirt if he had a hankering later on. He's also got less in his stuff than most people do in a really bad Type 1.

There are other options too, which present alternatives that most people don't consider. Early 4 cyl (pre Type 4) Porsche stuff was always considered an ignorant waste of money, as the parts were expensive and the performance no better than a Type 1. But these engines were always weighted towards the "reliable" end of the spectrum, and the quality of parts available for them makes them really interesting to me (as long as something in the 100- 120 hp range is adequate). A guy can buy a Tangerine Racing tri-Y header for an early 912 engine-- and other really, really nifty parts. They can be built to 2L or so. They aren't drag-racing motors, but very few of us are drag-racing.

Intermeccanica does a 911/6 car. On the surface, this sounds like an insane waste of money-- but I've driven a couple of these cars, and they are quite nearly perfect. "Awesome" is an overused adjective, but there's a picture of an IM/6 in the dictionary under the listing "Awesome". 200+ h/p, an exhaust note that is like no other (OK, perhaps a Ferrari 12 is better, but cummon'), and 200K+ mi reliability. Rick Davis drives his like a normal car, which is to say "everywhere/any time". When you jump on the throttle, it sounds like the sky is ripping in half. The cars are all Porsche- transaxle, suspension, wheels, everything. There is no VW compromise left in it. If I could choose any car in the world to own-- it would be an Intermeccanica Porsche 2.7 Roadster with dual-plug heads, all the updates, and PMOs. I'm not kidding-- these cars mash every single one of my buttons.

There is no "best", as everything represents some compromise. How much money is too much? How much power do you REALLY need? Do you want to win drag-races, or drive across the country? You need to decide for yourself, with enough information to make a good decision. There is no short-cut, no secret-sauce that all the smart-guys are doing, and nothing you are going to think of that hasn't been tried by somebody somewhere. Peter must be robbed to pay Paul-- how much is something every man decides for himself.

Forewarned is forearmed.

Your right!  .I have built bug engines and  know the cars pretty well. Many are not so gifted.. and will make you more headaches and charge you for it.

     And then we have the aftermarket parts problem with Chinese parts not up to snuff.. but still not cheap.. even when they are junk you really have to know where to shop for to get quality parts ,,, It's getting real tough.

Well thought out Stan.  Especially the part about the wiring harness.  I spent the extra coin to  have a custom map created by this guy in Canada.

http://www.subaruvanagon.com/c...sion_services_01.htm

He came highly recommended by the engine builder and it was a pleasure to see him work with me and Henry to customize the harness for my application.  The EFI is priceless for a non-tech guy like me.  I can drive my car anywhere I care to roam.   

Stan---what a fine summary of the main options we have to power our cars---I printed it and will save it for reference as I haven't seen anything as well thought out and explained as your post--thanks for doing that for the rest of us. 

I never seriously considereed a real 6 cylinder Porsche engine as a  power plant for these replicas---sort of in the class of a nuclear reactor as far as price and practicality.  So to me the options were Type I, Type IV and Suby. 

Please don't jump on me for saying this as it's only my personal opinion but I have always wondered why one of the high dollar replicas (You know--the ones with real windows and possibly AC) would ever use a Type I VW Bug engine to power it?  Seems that this turns a potentially serious road machine into a toy car. Now most of us aren't looking for a "serious road machine" but something to use to get ice cream on a summer evening and in this case it might not matter at all what engine is used.  I have to add that I know of many Speedsters powered with Type I's that do pile up some serious mileage with zero issues so we can't make blanket statements.

I guess the mission defines what engine gets chosen and one size does not fit all, as you so smartly pointed out.

Thanks again, Stan--for the food for thought!

Thanks, Stan, for an excellent post.  Hot rodding has always been a hobby in flux, morphing from one "new" invention to another when technology and budget meet.  We all make our own choices.  What works for me might not work for the next guy in line.  Not only that, but what works for me now wouldn't have worked for me 20 years ago.

Our wish list and our pocketbooks determine the road we choose.  Air cooled will always have an active following, but Subi's and their ilk are certainly making inroads into areas previously thought of as strictly air-cooled.  The sand guys have mostly switched to Subis, and lots of airplane hobbyists are too.  I don't really have a dog in the fight.  Subi works for me at this stage in my life, but I've spent lots of time and money on air-cooled 'dubs in the past.

Here's hoping we all find the product that rings our New Year's bells. 

Thanks, Stan, your thoughts are always fun, entertaining and helpful...

you old grouch, you :-). Please get your facts straight though, I don't even have 2.7 :-)

Thanks Stan.  You were a great help when I was specing out my car.  I'm super happy with my stroker 2054, 145 hp engine.  I bop around town, mostly, and make one big trip per year.  It's perfect for me.  Likewise, it seems like everyone else has found their sweetspot, too.

Stan:  as always, a very thoughtful post.  The only light I'll add is that the whizzes in the aftermarket have gotten around the Subaru factory problem of everything in the car talking to each other and not cooperating unless there was perfect harmony.  It is almost so bad that it seems like the seat heaters can't even be replaced without the drive train going on strike and failing to come to life.

However, the aftermarket guys can now, as Marty pointed out, provide modified PROMS (I'm showing my age, here.....younger motorheads call them "chips) for the Suby factory ECU to ignore a lot of that extraneous stuff and run the way we want them to w/o resorting to carburation Or sneaking Suby gauges under the seats.   My son's motorhead friends (granted, several of them are engineers and can figure out things just from the schematics) get around these factory eccentricities all the time (Although, often by throwing money at the problem).

As Jim mentioned, the hobby is evolving and as the current mainstream alternatives become more and more expensive, cheaper alternatives will be found, tried out, perfected and will then become the new mainstream.  In the meantime, we'll all just be part of a hobby in transition........I see, however, a business opportunity coming shortly, of a decent, basic, inexpensive upgrade kit to go from an AC T-1 to a Suby, tailored just for a Speedster.

gn

Oh....and I looked at the length of your post and thought, "Holy God!  It's an epistle!"  Then I took the time to actually read it (a couple of times) and then thought, "Holy God!  He's right!"  Happy New Year, retro-Grouch!  Glad you continue to be a part of our madness!  

I find the Wasserboxer/Oxyboxer Type V interesting.

It is a water cooled flat 4 with the water jacket removed to convert it to an air cooled engine.

It seems like it would be a compromise between a Type I and a Type IV.

I may offer some of the robustness of a Type IV but a lot of Type I bits fit.

There is a forum topic on this on Shoptalkforums.com

Stan's post is great. Thanks for the knowledge. Now, speaking as a guy with (maybe) 50 horses, I will hereby assert that i have plenty fun. I also just drove my car to VA beach about 270 miles each way in November. On the highway. Emergency flashers off. Probably I just got lucky, but just sayin'.

Probably I'll end up doing something very much like Stroud has done. It looks just hard enough to be almost fun.

Stan, that was an awesome post-you nailed it.

As for engine choice in my IM, I couldn't care less if it was a air cooled or water cooled. 

IT'S A REPLICA....IT DOESN'T MATTER!

As a few of you know, I've had ongoing engine problems since I had my new engine installed two years ago.  First, a broken piston ring, then serious overheating and drive-ability problems with my EFI.

When I pulled the engine out this time I talked to the mechanic, who will be doing the work, and asked if I should just give up on an air cooled engine and go with a Subaru powerplant.  He replied that a conversion was not an easy task and when you're doing custom work there is usually compromises.

Like Stan, I'm staying with an air cooled engine.  It's the easiest path to take.  I'm not sure it's the best.  Time will tell on this one.

Ron

As Michael points out, there are other, more esoteric alternatives to the basic engine families I brought out.

The oxy-boxer he mentions looks pretty cool as a one-off "werks" kind of power-plant. However, most of the stuff a (so-called) Type V "fixes" is being done much less expensively in the Type 1 aftermarket. Jeff Denham and Avery Aircooled are both offering Type 1 cases with the provision for 4" bores. The problem here is that everything (and I mean everything) becomes very, very pricy with these engines. Type 1 heads that will accommodate 4" cylinders either offer inadequate cooling (undrilled Comp Eliminators), or cost $5K (JPMs from Sweden). Jeff Denham is putting undrilled angle-flows on his 3L Type 1s, but these require custom headers. Regardless, a stout 3L Type 1 is going to be every bit as "one-off" as a big Type 4, and probably quite a bit more expensive.

Since we're talking about attractive unobtainium, consider the Polopolus (Advance Performance Engineering, Inc) 911/4. This is a 4 cylinder engine based on a 3.0/3.2L Porsche 6. It's a proprietary case and crankshaft that uses 911 cylinders and overhead cam heads. The Emorys have put several of these in "real" outlaw 356s. I wanted one badly enough to talk to Dean Polopolus about one. A turn-key engine comes in at about $30K.

... which brings us to Gordon's point about the fact that all of this presents an opportunity for somebody quite a bit younger (and smarter) than me to put together a turn-key EFI Subaru drive-train with a stand-alone harness and chip package. This would really fill a niche and provide a lot of guys the set of compromises they are looking for.

I'm with Jim Dunn on this though. I really DO like the fact that my car needs me, and that what's under the deck-lid is something that represents my own choices and compromises. Jim Kelly was 100% right when he said that what's good for me today might not be what I'm after in 20 years. What I want from my car today isn't even what I wanted even 20 months ago. I doubt there will come a day when I'm ready to do a water-pumper, but I've eaten crow before.

It's a big tent. There's room enough for all of us.

I have to agree everybody; Stan just about covered it all. The only points I'll add- while a 356 motor is a viable (although somewhat expensive) option, once you get up to 120-140 (Carrera level) hp the reliability isn't there that you have with a larger than 2 liter type 1. Parts are more expensive and the lack of availability in 5 or 10 years is going to keep these motors in original cars. Henry's 911 outfitted cars (motor, trans, suspension and brakes) are intriguing, but the cost of a new car from Intermeccanica (thus equipped- $75,000? If I'm way off base someone please chime in) is in another league compared to a type 1 based car. I'll take Stan's word for it that driving one is nothing short of spectacular (I've never been in one), but being several hundred pounds heavier (again, if I'm blowing smoke through my nose and if someone knows the figure, please set me straight), a 160hp type 1 speedster with discs, some decent rubber underneath and a 5 speed would give the 6 cylinder car a good workout. I understand there's no comparison in the 911 vs bug suspension argument, but at roughly half the cost....

But this is the beauty of these things; to quote my neighbour Ron-  

IT'S A REPLICA....IT DOESN'T MATTER!

As I like to look at it, they're not real, they're plastic. We can do them up however the hell we want...Al

Stan ....Your post it's spot on !

No offense taken at all Jack. It's a valid question, and one worth asking.

I'm one of the guys with the "high-dollar replicas" that put (more than one) Type 1 under the deck-lid. I may not be typical, but I don't think I'm entirely unusual. Here's why I did what I did:

When Henry built my car for me in 2005, it was a stretch to justify that kind of expenditure for a plastic-toy car in my own mind. Still, I had "the fever" in a bad way. I bought the car as a "roller", and installed my own engine and transaxle to keep the expense down. I did not envision a time when I would be using the car for anything other than getting that ice-cream cone after work you mentioned, so a cheaply built 2110 seemed perfectly adequate for the purpose intended.

As I put some miles on my car over the next couple of years, and began to appreciate all of the sweetness Henry bakes into the cake (as it were), I began to want "more", and and had the resources to buy/build it. I looked hard at a Type 4 (and briefly at the Polo engine), but what I was really after was not a long-legged cruiser, it was brutal torque-- and the Type 1 platform offered more of it for less money than any other option. I ended up with north of $10K in a 2332 that had all of issues you would expect from an engine of that nature, and some you wouldn't.

In the years since then, I have subconsciously trended towards civilizing the engine with the dry-sump, etc. But underneath it all, my 2332 was a still a bare-knuckled street-fighter, not a grand-touring motor-car.

Almost on a whim, late this summer I decided to throw caution and reason into the wind and drive my car to California to spend a long weekend with friends, rather than fly. I did it alone, and met my wife in Sacramento.

It was complete insanity, and I had the time of my life.

The engine held together (mostly), but exhibited all of the characteristics you would expect asking Usain Bolt to run the marathon instead of the 100m dash. The issues weren't the result of the platform, but rather the nature of the particular build (and the ineptitude of the particular builder). On the way back from California, I made a stop in Salt Lake City, and asked Art Thraen to tear the engine apart to set things right.

Together, we decided to de-stroke from 84 mm to 82 mm, get rid of the Chinese nickasil cylinders, and go to a new cam. The engine is now a 2276. We did combustion chamber coatings, and installed 911 oil squirters to cool the pistons. He also did most of the Hoover oiling system mods. The entire bottom end is new, but the case and heads remain. I had Art install a 3.44:1 Ring and pinion in the transaxle, and a .93 fourth and 1.3 third gear to go with my custom 1st and 2nd. It's on the dyno right now. I suspect we'll be down about 20% in horsepower. But with the dry-sump system and the support systems I've got, I'm suspecting it'll perform like a baby 911-- which is perfect for me (right now).

The point is, that the Type 1 is not an inherently bad platform. It can be modified to be as robust as needed for most applications. In 2008, I wanted a "street/strip" motor, but came to want a horizon-chasing grand-touring rig during my 2012 odyssey. A Type 1 can be massaged into either one, depending on the choices made during the build. It's less expensive than a Type 4. It can't be everything, but it can be all I need it to be.

A Type 1 makes sense for me, but it's because I'm not the average guy. I Love this stuff, and would like to retire with a shop full of machine tools for an obsolete platform. As I said in my opus-- I really, really like stuff that's at the end of it's evolutionary cycle-- getting the last little bit out of a fully mature technology. I'm the guy looking for the last drop of coffee coming out of the filter.

I'm aware that I represent one extreme of the spectrum. I'm not aiming for the sweet middle, so a Type 1 makes sense for me.

That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.

Damn Stan when I am ready for my next engine are you available as a consultant. 

"I really, really like stuff that's at the end of it's evolutionary cycle"

Yup, that pretty much describes the type 1.  It's a great engine at the end of it's life and parts (not to mention complete engines) are beginning to get pretty expensive and that's why the shift to Subaru power - it's going to be lots cheaper.

It occurs to me, though, after reading Stan's last post, that we need to hear from Peter Venuti.  Peter bought a roller IM from Henry w/o engine and then, over a winter and just like Dave Stroud, installed a Suby powerplant into it.  The performance he's getting is stunning and it didn't sound like he had a lot of troubles getting it in there or many bugs to iron out, but we should hear from him (all I know is that I was cruising home from Carlisle in "Son of Mighty Power Stroke at over the legal speed limitand he came up on me in a heartbeat, beeped on the way by and "ZAP!", he was gone.....  I'm jus' sayin'.......

I've emailed him and asked him to chime in (he's not on here much).

Stan--set a good example and add your location under your name and your email adr on your profile!  Lets force this site to work for us!

First, I really appreciate your writing and grasp of engine lore.  Between you, Gordon, Larry Jowdy plus a couple of others like David and our resident carb experts I understand what attracts me to this site!  More of this is what it will take to attract the old gang back and encourage new participants in my opinion.

Thanks for clearing up my question about Type I engines in high dollar cars---I really didn't want to broach the subject but I'm glad I did.

And may I add, I believe that "Beavis and Butthead" may have made a new years resolution to not post.  As I have said before, some folks brighten up a room just by leaving it.  I for one hope this is a permanent situation.  Insulting others is not an approach I respect.

Just my 2 cents.

Jack:

You (and adult conversations like this one) are one of the reasons I came back.

My info is in my profile, as you requested. Stay in touch, my friend.

Want to tell us why you bailed?

Stan--your comment was much appreciated---pardon me, but for a while I felt we were back in the nicer days which got me hooked on Speedsters, this site and damned smart people who DO work on their cars.  Anyway, where in Dogpatch where I live am I going to find someone to work on my Speedster?   Definitely like the old saying "If it is to be, it's up to me!"

Happy New Year my frend.

Stan, we have never met, hope that changes someday soon. You are right on, as is pretty much every other comment on this thread.

As most of you know, I am a Spyder owner, and I did kind of(not really?) what Stan did, bought a Spyder roller and installed one of Jake's turnkey type1 motors, specifically to fit my needs along with the transmissions. From that point on, it took a few years and many mods and variations to get the car as reliable and quick and sorted as it is. Plus I taught myself how to tune, adjust, and troubleshoot carbs along the way.

All the engine options apply to both Speedies and Spyders. Today I might not make the same decision that I did in 2001. I have 27,000 miles on mine now, and am starting to think about things the way Stan and Ron are. How is it running? Just fine, not a hiccup or a problem. Head temps good, oil pressure good. I just am thinking about 180 hp out of a 2165cc isn't going to last much longer. How many 6500 rpm shifts can it take? When will the case get pounded enough to need new bearings and a good "refresh" on the top end? Hell, I don't know, which is why I ask.

When I do rebuild it, and I will do it myself I think, do I send the heads out for twin plugging? That means another ignition system to handle the slightly delayed spark for the second set of plugs, but that is easy with Megajolt. Do I change to dry-sump this time? Good questions, and I don't mind that my engine needs me. I just don't want it to need me too much, so maybe just leave it alone and maintain the state of tune I have, which is ok with me. 

Danny---that Speedster of yours is truly one of a kind. If there's anyone out there that thinks

a well built Type I won't take your breath away, I'm here to say oh Yeah it wil! 

27,000 miles---fantastic.  Might be a record for a Spyder.  If I had that baby, I'd ride every chance I got!  Happy New Year, Danny.

I spent 5K and had a type1 built and could not be happier with 140hp in a 1700lb. car! For durability I had it built with a aluminum case,CNC ported heads,balanced,full flowed and the price included dyno time,a new set of 44 Webers,& crating and shipping from CA to HI,all that for 5K!! Engine has been absolute joy,very pleased. I feel the type1 has the closest semblance/essence of the original powerplant 

 If you are in CA,you will save $500.00 shipping.

 http://steelbugin.com/ 

People who think that going water-cooled should rather be left to the pros couldn't be further from the truth. 

I have a 2.0L 8v water pumper from a VW golf in the back of my speedster. Yes it took me the better part of 8 months to do it, but I had never done one before and there was a lot of trial and error on my part. A friend did help with the wiring harness, but seriously with the internet, I could of done this myself. There is enough information on the web to help the average guy make something like this a reality. 

The car hauls, it's cheap as chips to maintain, next to my old mild built type 4 it doesn't compare. The 2.0l just kills it on power/ fuel economy/ QUALITY parts availability and reliability. I paid about R25 000 for mine which is about $2500.00. But that includes EVERYTHING. 

Stan, all.  I am pretty new to all of this and have been hoping to see more information like this on the forum and less of the other stuff.  Thanks.  I learned a lot from reading all of these posts.

One of the reasons I got involved in this thread was to try to dispel the notation that some engine families are "good", and others are "bad".

The high-performance Type 1 has gained a horrible reputation primarily because this corner of the hobby is largely populated with thieves and charlatans posing as "engine builders". This is further aggravated by Speedster manufacturers who often default to the lowest bidder as their engine suppliers. It is the native "value orientation" (cheapness) of the average customer that is ruining the Type 1 as a platform. There is no lack of parts and labor suppliers willing to race the other guy to the bottom of the barrel. We reap what we sow, and with the Type 1, we've largely gotten what we are paying for. The frightening part is that we may have crossed a tipping point, where there is no good alternative to the cheap/bad parts we have gravitated towards.

Obsolete stuff just costs more, as there is no economy of scale. Look at it like this: a good mechanic or machinist needs to make at least a living wage, or he'll go into something that pays better. A factory can pay skilled workers a decent wage, because they can produce and sell hundreds of engines a day. A shop, on the other hand, might spend a couple of weeks or more building a single full-custom split-case engine.

It goes like this: After the engine is speced, parts are purchased (they come from all over the world). Once everything has arrived, they are measured and sent out for machining. The modifications to the case and heads begin-- this can be as simple as drilling out the oil galley plugs and tapping/cleaning them, or as complicated as a guy could imagine (doing the Hoover mods, 911 squirters, shuffle-pinning the case, etc. is a LOT of machine work). Once the machine work is done, everything is cleaned, and dry-fitted to check for interference (this means completely putting the engine together and taking it back apart). There will likely be some issues, so stuff gets sent out to be re-machined, or the appropriate shims are put in place. The engine goes back together again, and is taken apart again. Everything is cleaned and final assembly begins. Once everything is together, the carbs, exhaust, and ignition is installed, and the engine is fired and break-in begins. Once the engine has the initial break-in complete, the break-in oil is drained, the engine goes on a dyno, and the tuning begins. Dialing the engine in may take a day or more on the dyno.

Only then can the engine be crated and shipped to your door.

The parts themselves cost about 2x what they did even a couple of years ago-- the demise of the Mexican and Brazilian Beetle has means that factory parts production (cases and heads) has largely ceased. A good engine builder has north of $75K is machines and tooling-- he has a hot-tank, a lathe, a mill, and a dyno, along with all the standard shop stuff (compressor, lift, etc.), and the overhead of his building and employees.

... and we all want these engines to cost less than $3000. It's just not possible to get anybody with any skill or care to do it for this kind of money. The real trick, in an internet age, is finding the wheat among the chaff. Being willing to pay top dollar for this service is by no means a guarantee you will find the right needle in a stack of other needles.

Over on the Samba they say, "you don't always get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get".

George---"  other stuff"  well said.  

If the members here want a treat and don't know about it---you can view all posts going all the way back to 2002.  Sometimes I start at the end of a category and read the threads going from the oldest to the newest.  Some very fine info there and if you liked what Stan had to say as I did, there is a lot of info available that we have been missing lately. 

Stan has unfortunately described the state of the VW aircooled hobby/industry accurately. At one time you could buy off certain suppliers and know that what you received was engineered and manufactured to specs that would ensure long life. Gene Berg was one; you may not have always agreed with his thinking (he was quite opinionated, didn't suffer fools well and had no problem with telling you what he thought of your "plan"), but even though their stuff seemed expensive you always knew what you bought from them was top notch. One of his favorite sayings was "buy the best and cry once!" and it had to be as good as factory stock (as opposed to aftermarket replacement) or better. Sadly, Gene Berg Enterprises is but a shadow of what it  once was. Gene wrote an article ("The Killing of an Industry" 1978? It's copyrighted, so I won't reprint it here) foreseeing exactly the situation the aircooled market is in right now. The solution- resist the lure of "it's as good as/it'll be fine and it's 1/2 (or 2/3, or 3/4) the price of the properly made one" and support the companies that are trying to bring quality back into what we use.

My apologies for the rant. Al 

stan is pretty close, there are the guys that want it all on a diet soda budget.there are the guys that want everything on a champain budget.but when the champain guy gets his stuff done by a sham-pain builder he gets an expensive pos, that gives issues most all of the time.and the diet soada guy? well he might of got a good builder or might of got screwed too.Ive got 1 motor in my shop now for a guy that is pure **** for workmanship.it came from the great northwest coast of usa, from what he thought was a good builder, well it had about 800 miles before it came appart(by it's self) then when we split it I was horrified.the builder than proceded to post pics of somebody elses motor(probably somebody elses work too as there was no resemblance at all)parts&peices and a through pictorial of rebuilding the carbs(dells) well non of it was the same parts.the builder was trying to cover his ass with more ass.so the motor ended up at my shop(witch I didnt have time for)I had already done a 2387 for this guy(witch I also had not planed on)so he droped off the 2110 one day with a pile of parts.the 2387 was a"professionaly built" compleate motor with the porsche fancy glass shroud&fan assy.(type 1vw)in his 65 912,well it had about 1000 miles on it when I got it.it would of gone farther if it had been instaled by somebody with 1/2 a brain.but even with that the motor was crap.small valve heads on a 2376cc motor with big valves seating on the swirl polished portion of the valve,valve train geomatry way off, pushrodsnot asembled corectly&not straight, the crankshaft(oe german welded & stroked to 86 mm with fulround counterweights, looked real nice till I found the oil gally on 1 rod almost welded closed&another not much biger,and steel slivers hanging off the crank were sticking me,I mean big stuff,about .008 thick by .060-.125 wide,by up to 1/2"long, just trimings off the crank that were never fully removed they just bend over when they get that thin. this motor was ful of all kinds of crap like that, the oil gallys were effed up in somebodys attempt to turn a duel relief case into a single relief case with a ball&spring relief,but they blocked off one of the main oil gallys. he was told this motor was 168 hp on the dyno,I realy dont think so with theheads effed up like thay were, and hemi cut too boot!(vw isant a hemi,hemi cutting just effes up the head,the torque,the power,the mpg,the motor). and the motor has a hyd cam in it too, witch I left in there and added 1.4ratio  cb rockers(witch took a lot of work before I would put them in any thing,but thats me)it took about a week to fix/reglass the innerd part of the "shroud-of-turin-cars) so it would cool the motor the way it needed to(the cylinders were purple when I pulled them off they were running so hot). So in the end what do we have ?a guy spending about 18000 on 2 motors(for 2 diferent cars)(not including what it cost to have me fix them) thinking he was getting a good reliable set of motors(I forgot he also has a southeastcoast motor that was$$$ and has been back the the builder 1 time and last week had a valve train failure from not being set up right(from what I understand as I havent seen it appart, but the time it went back the builder siad nothing was rong,even thought it was making horendus noise&black oil)now this guy has **** for luck with his vw stuff he has paid real good $$$$ for, he rides the crap out of his dirtbikes and does all the work him self on them.he's not the brightest tool in the shed but nut a moron.but made bad chioces on motor builders 2 of witch are"perfessional" both have add in mags, 1 is real big, 1 is big. 1 has now stoped all type 1 work from what I hear,and I understand that there isant much $$ in it.

     as for the cheep ass china & empi parts, well as of yet I havent had any empi engine parts that were bad.but a lot of others.(I do mod every part that comes through my doors,it's all junk untill it's properly fitted,modifyed,coated,machined for it's intended pourpose)some more junk than others. as for the "new china heads"?? well Ive had 2 sets hear, both the scat street pros(about the cheepist you can get now days for any new head,but the head is sold by oh so many, just scat has a better price & is ported for less than the otherguys non ported head,nothin fancy just very well pocket ported witch is just what 80% of the motors need)the head looks nice,Im not a fan of the oe chambers,but they are what they are.the valve cover serface is smaller than vw so the covers are too big but still seal fine. for the $ if thats what your after there a good head.I have mofoco 042's on my 2028 motor, there an american made head(wisconsin)extra fins for better cooling,rockerbox isolated better from chamber heat,biger ports, great company to deal with.a little expensive, but not bad. I have the cb 044 wedge ports on my 2332,there a briazillion head,mostly a race head but if fine for the street in most cases&cb has somany heads to choose from for vw type 1 you can get just what you need not settell for the stage left head that fits everything. camshafts, well there are a few manufactures, engle,web,cb and some others that dabble in it.I have a cb in my 2028, it's only got about 80000 miles on it so the jurry is still out as far as how long it will last, it's got dubble springs,1.33 rockers,empi lifters with the oil hold in the face.but as with everything I do I fixed the cam/lifters/springs/retainers/rockers befor ever using it.I have many engle cams,I had them grind me a experamential hydro roller cam for my vw type 1 motor(one of them)and they were great to deal with.

     none of this stuff is hard.Ive been building/machining engines for more than 45 years of my 53 years ,professionaly for more than half of that,but with that said they were almost all high performance&racing,95%big ci v8.and also a racer. as of yet since Ive been into the vw stuff (over 10 years)I havent found any thing diferent that any other motor exrcpt for the mazda rotery I rebuilt out of a box of parts when I was 18 years old(and yes it ran great when I was done) the motor dosent know what is written on the valve covers.there are size &shape that change,and a few things that are the same but react a bit diferent,but when equlized & realized there the same, these motors are about the simplest thing I have even messed with. with that sid I cant figure out how there are somany guys out there effiing up these things & getting paid well for it. the parts are plentyfull, and the quality isant realy that bad(but nowhere it should be,and eveilution has left the aircooled industry way behind). some people just think to much into it, or dont think at all, then there are the 40 year old hot rod books that are a joke and guys still try that stuff and dont know what thier stuff dosent work when they did it by the book. most issues are owner inflected, and yes this includes selecting the rong engine builder.(is rong spelt wrong? how can that be?it's rong nomater how it is spelled execpt for when you spell it right or was that wright?rite? yes I do spell a bit differently at tymes,but if you cant get through my spelling you woudnt understand what Im saying anyway.and my gramer in in cali with grampaw, there just fine in thier crypt) the state of the acvw/porsche/aka porch/ is just fine, you just have to do a little work, if that dosent suite you you better have a fat walet & time to spair. Im still worken on getting a 356,not there yet but getten there.(glass,no rust)wish I had time to make an aluminum one, but I dont.life has a way of getting in the way.

Welcome to the madness Mark; I didn't realize you posted on here. I see your spelling has improved....

Some costs I can tell you right off the top of my head

Rebuilt EJ22 with FI wiring harness all set delivered to your door, right around 5k

Want a 5 speed P transaxle rebuilt $2200 maybe more

KEP engine adaptor plate and clutch  $280

High Torque start $200

 Exhaust $480

Then you get into stuff like radiators, plumbing, heater cores, burp tanks, fans, controllers, recalibrating your gauges, fabricating mounts for all of that stuff.

As you can see from the short list above mating German and Japanese parts together and then adding water to the mix requires more stuff and takes up more room in your car. Can water cooled be done well for less than outlined above absolutely just depends on what your needs vs. wants are and what work you can do for yourself.

I’m very  happy with my choice of going with a freshly rebuilt Subaru I learned a lot along the way.

If your serious about it PM me and we can get on the phone and talk through what my experience was.