Subaru-powered Coupe?

I am in the market for a new Subaru or Toyota-powered coupe. I contacted Steve at Specialty, who let me know they're not taking build orders until they clean up the existing list, which has a long delay in build time. I found CSW Speedsters in Canada on line, but they only make a Speedster, not a coupe. JPS seems to be VW engines only, as is VS. Is there a builder I'm missing? Thanks in advance, Jim Kelly

Toyota powered? Not heard of one of them. Could always buy a used ENVEMO (rare but not as rare as new replica coupes) or VW powered one from guy making them in Mexico (had one on Ebay listed awhile back) and convert it to Subaru. Ya missed a nice green one (Tom's) by about 2 years. There was one for sale in VA beach (silver?) about same time too.

Steve has a long waiting list?

Jim, my advice would be to look in some other direction as Subaru-based coupes are rarer than hen

Maybe it's time one of the other builders took up the Subie powered coupe crusade.

Jim,

Did you ask JPS if he would sell you coupe, less engine? John has a background is street rods of all types. He may not want the engineering headaches of a one-off build today, but you may be able to farm out the engine install yourself?

Would you accept a back-motor configuration? That would be easier to build, as opposed to a mid-motor build, which is probably more desireable, but not the only game in town.

I'll bet there are many hot rod shops who could build a simple engine support frame to align a Subie to a T-1 tranny (I built my own for a T4 engine). Crankcase adapters are readily available. Dune buggies do ths all the time.

Then it becomes a simple question of will it fit under the bodywork? They make styrofoam replicas of many engines for just that purpose. Or Work with an engine supplier to lend you a "hollow" engine assembly for a short time? Next comes radiators and plumbing - pretty straight forward compared to getting the rear deck lid to close!

Hey - lets do this!

BTW, has anyone ever seen a CSW Speedster?

If you

Unless something has changed, CSW is vaporware.

I had a flared VS 2110 built about 10 years ago. This time around, I want a mid-engine Subi, pumped to about 300 hp. I'm now 65, and my time constraints and wrenching ability dictate that I will need an experienced builder to put this project together. I don't want to be the test case for a builder who has never installed a Subi. It sounds like I will need to wait for SAW to go through their list if I live that long. No other builder seems to offer my requirements: a coupe, tube frame, and Subi power. Thx to all for input. Too bad GB is gone. I'd build it just to piss him off.

Jim, what the hell do you need 300 hp for? You got a big trailer to pull?

Or perhaps he just has a small penis

I wanna hear Angela answer that one ........

Hi Vince,

Why don't I stck it in your a**, and you can tell me if it's too small.

Hi Alan,

Thanks for constructive comment. A coupe as I envision it would likely weight about 2100 or 2200, quite an increase from 1400. A mid engine configuration would help to even it out also. Even with that, possibly a milder Subi upgrade would be in order. Regards, Jim

While it sounds great stuffing 300 HP in 1400 lb car, it's a pita to drive. I did two T' buckets, one was 300 HP and the other 355 HP. You need to re-learn driving, you can't touch the throttle into a turn or on a highway ramp...these are must idle moves, hitting the gas in a light car... you'e going straight . ~Alan

Jim - 300 HP, even in a 2000+ LB car, is overkill.

And regarding your response to Vince... apparently your sense of humor is even smaller than your schwanz. Lighten up a little.

Hey Vince, I'm glad I didn't just take a big drink of Coke. Bwa ha ha ha ha ha. You're killin' me man.

This might be sacrilegious, but you could purchase a nice Porsche 356 coupe and have someone install a WRX Sti engine in it. Heck, there's a guy who is presently installing an Audi V8 in his coupe!
I personally like that idea, but then-again, my last car was a V8 powered Miata, and before that I owned a Porsche 911 powered 1970 VW single cab pickup (I still miss that damn truck!)

Ouch....That hurt...Not the penis up the A$$, or even that you have no sense of humor, it's not having a quick come-back for you...
I must be slipping....give me some time, I'll be back....

Hey Vince,

I apologize for overreacting. Flame wars are not my style. Regards, Jim

Like I've said a 1,000 times before...this site gives you the most bang-for-your-buck (for those who actually contribute to support this site) in entertainment value (and sometimes technical assistance once you filter out all the wise-guy-I'm-just-yanking-your-chain man-talk)!!

...I'm just sa..........uh, you know what I mean.

Jimbo, build what you want, it's your blank canvas to create your own personal masterpiece!

Fun thread.......Ron ever since I saw and was allowed to drive Rick Davis's IM-6 Roadster on 2007 I wanted one. At that same time I thought of grafting one of Henry's IM-6 frames into the 65 356C Coupe I had at the time. The "Rat Rod" was a POS 65C shell I bought for $2,000 and built from parts and pieces and made a cool driver out of.

I think anything other than a stock 356 motor in a 356 is an improvement. It is still on the short list for the next build if I can fins a 356A Coupe that does not cost me my first born. Got to be steel not plastic so I can piss off the Porsche Purists.

That is my mission in life.........;-)

Looking forward to meeting you at the BBQ if not when I pick up my car.

Jim, No apology necessary, I'm a wise guy, I dish it out, but I can take it...Makes for cheap entertainment....

FWIW there was a nice rear-mounted Subi Speedster at Carlisle and there was plenty of room in there. Guy built it himself, more or less, and aside from having very low clearance underneath (which he thought he could fix), the job was very nice. Plenty of room. JPS tells me that his Coupes have even more room at the back than his Speedsters, so getting that mill in there should be OK. I also thought that you get get a Coupe from John snas engine, and get the engine work done somewhere. Ask JPS what he thinks -- no harm asking, talk is cheap. What is the worst he will say? No? And I agree that finding a hot-rodder that will do this for you will be pretty difficult/expensive. the guys who build these cars a living (the current Speedster/Coupe builders) likely are not looking for a developmental job, but will prefer to turn their products out as they know how to do them for a profit. That said, the aforementioned rear-mount Subi Speedster owner and Henry (IM) spent a great deal of time talking at Carlisle, and Henry admitted that the whole operation looked pretty "reasonable". Now if it could ever be Reisnerable, I dunno . . . Again, what is the harm in asking?

Kelly - That was Peter Venuti's IM/Subie Roadster. I was impressed with the meticulous job of laying out the plumbing for the radiator up front and incorporating features to allow airflow that are not visible without crawling under the car. That engine looked right at home in the rear bay, and the exhaust Peter used (from a Vanagon/Subie setup) even sounded like a Type-1 aircooled engine. Rayner Marx (former SOC participant) also had an IM Speedster that he retrofitted with a Subie motor.

Hi Kelly,

Thanks for your comments. I have considered your suggestions. My concerns are two-fold: I think the extra h.p., stress, flexing, etc. would do better in a tube frame, and I think mid-engine makes more sense than rear for balance and weight distribution.

I'm 6'1", so the tube frame appeals to me as it increases interior room also. If I was younger, a rear-engined prototype would make sense since it's easier/faster to do, and then a guy with time and talent could progress to the mid mounted, tube frame as the next project. But, you know how it goes: when I was younger, I couldn't afford to build it, now that I'm older, less time for long term projects, etc, etc.

In a larger context, VW pans will give way to tube/channel frames as they become scarcer and in worse shape. When a manufacturer's costs for adapting/stiffening a pan vs. a tube frame narrows, things will slowly change. Legislation like SB100 will continue to impact the specially-constructed market as well. AC engines will always have appeal to a significant market segment. The popularity of Cal-look is just one example. Modernization does have appeal to those of us who are in the "autumn" of our years, however. Subi engines are reliable, plentiful, powerful, and adaptable. I guess that's why some of us say: potatoes, and some potahhtoes.

In my opinion, a modern IM or SAW really have no connection to a Speedster, except in the shell and cosmetics. Even pan-based Speedsters are a far cry from an original. I don't think that's a negative comment, either. Speedster just look so cool that it's the shape that matters. I'm not a purist at all, so it doesn't offend me that folks are using modern materials, drive trains, brakes, suspenstions, etc. to tailor the final product to their dream. I'll work out mine also, but it will take me some time. Regards, Jim

MY JPS COUPE IS A TUBE FRAME
AND JOHN WILL SELL WITHOUT AN ENGINE

Gerd, I got a tube for you...

Kelly, I'm not surprised that Henry is interested in the Subie powerplant. He can see the writing on the wall-there is no future in building replicas with air cooled engines. I believe that sooner or later all replica builders will be building their cars with water cooled engines. It's only a matter of time. I'm not saying it's going to happen tomorrow, but it will happen.
I thought about installing a Subie in my IM, but in the end decided it would be too expensive and too much of a challenge for my limited fabricating abilities.
Dave, I'll see you at Henry's BBQ. I doubt my car will be ready in time-I'll have to 'slum it' and bring the Miata.

Jim:

I'm currently building (albeit, slowly) a CMC pan-based speedster that will eventually have an Audi 1.8T engine. The current plan is to run somewhere near 300hp to the wheels (around 350hp to the flyheel). We (my son and me) will have the ability to increase that to over 450hp to the wheels, but with a progressive turbo to provide for a more linear (and predictable) power curve vs. throttle position. My calculations call for a LOT of tire rubber on the ground to attempt to harness all that power, as well as quite a bit of chassis/pan stiffening and suspension upgrades (although nothing "exotic" will be necessary) to make it handle the way I want it to.

I'm anticipating a car weight around 2,000 lbs., 7" wide rims and 205 tires all around and I'm thinking of coil-overs to augment the torsion bar suspension along with the usual anti-sway bars. I am not afraid of the car getting away from me under any power circumstances, but I want to make sure that it goes where I point it when under severe power loads.

I'm setting it up to be a killer autocross machine. I would LOVE to run a late-model automatic transmission, but we'll probably just use a really beefed-up early VW version (although I still have to research the benefits of a 901 or 915 style box).

I've heard that a Subaru 2L engine will add about 40-50 lbs. to the rear of the car. An Audi 1.8 is about a wash. Both fit inside the Speedster body w/o mods. Either is highly modifiable(?) without having to open the engine up. BOTH are highly reliable, even under gross power loads.

I have long ago gotten over the need to hear a "boxer-beat" from the engine bay of a Speedster. I already have a boxer that has plenty of grunt (160+ ft. lbs. at 4500 rpm) and love it.

Now, I want something that absolutely blows my socks off and lives many years.

Talk to Carey Hines and Henry Reisner about what they're doing with water cooled engines (I think Henry is concentrating on Honda engines, not Subaru). I think they are both (and about the only ones for speedsters) in the forefront of what's going on. Then, snoop around the tuner sites like Diamond Star Motors New England (DSMNE) or the Shop Talk Forums and see what types of engine swaps are going on out there all the time (although mostly, on the shop talk forums, into beetle sedans).

You're right in thinking that this is the wave of the future. It's a very cheap way to get LOTS of reliable, modern horsepower.

gn

I saw Peter Venuti's Speedster and got a ride in it to dinner. It sounded EXACTLY like a type1, but was fuel injected and had TORQUE, plus it can also have real heat and AC. What's not to like?

Greg Leach @ Vintage Spyders put a Suby into an IM Speedster also, it can be done relatively easily.

2007 Carlisle, didn't we have a round-table discussion with John, Henry, and Carey about the future of kitcars and powerplants? I know i had a bit to drink, but I think I remember something along those lines.....

BTW, I don't think there is any more room in a JPS coupe's engine bay than a Speedster, having worked on both Tom's and Kelly's. But plenty of room for a Suby. I'm just sayin..........

Jim Kelly,

SB-100 is easy to figure out in California. The only thing you need to do is get to DMV the first day of January with enough receipts to start the process.

I agree the 4 cylinder air cooled motors are out of date. No matter how big you build them they still just don't cut the mustard until you get to a point of almost self destruction. They are almost useless unless you want a basic cruiser then a good stock DP 1600 will work. Water cooled Speedsters or Roadsters either Audi/VW or Subaru powered is the new wave. Pun intended. With all the room the plumbing and radiators take it is a bit of a problem for trunk space thus rendering the cars to closer overnight trips because of limited space for gear.

Water cooled is a very good way to go but Porsche 911 air cooled motors will be around for many years. Expensive you say? How much extra does the radiator and extra plumbing cost? Horsepower? What ever you want. Reliability? You bet, build it correctly and expect 100K easy before you even think of doing anything major to the motor.

All power plants have good and bad points either air or water cooled. Which ever you decide to build or have built you have the one basic thing common to all Speedsters or Roadsters which is a car that turns heads and is a blast to drive.

Enjoy the ride! I can't wait!!! ;-)

Presently Henry installs VW water cooled engines as an option.
Gordon, sounds like you will have one 'bad ass' speedster!
I have a street/track Miata (stock powerplant-meaning it's slow) and have been watching, with interest, the move towards Chevy powered conversions. In the past most monster Miatas have been powered by Ford 5.0 liters. Now they're stuffing GM LS engines in the engine bays and it is possible to get a converted Miata with 480 hp! These are not temperamental beasts-they're near stock LS engines, which can handle the race track and make a great daily driver. The only problem is they still look like Miatas :-)
Here's a link: http://www.flyinmiata.com/V8/

JPS makes pan-based and a tube-frame/pan hybrid Speedster. I am not sure, but would have to guess that the JPS Coupe is a hybrid pan/tube construction. John might be able to at least talk about how you could go about Subi-izing one of his coupes. I do not know if John has ever done or has even thought about a mid-engine arrangement. But as some have said, he has been hot-rodding most of his life, and likely would have some ideas, good, bad, or otherwise. If you are serious about this project, seems to me you could spend some time talking to John about how much of it he could supply to you and/or your appointed wrench/metal-burner, and for how much. Who knows?? Maybe this would be seen as a JPS business opportunity. Some guys sitting around dreaming about: "What if we tried to do this . . ." is how this Speedster replicar thing got started in the first place.

I'm just sayin' . . . and certainly not speaking for JPS Motorsports in any way shape or form. But if you want a coupe, that is one place you can go to ask questions.

While I was at Henry's today he let me drive his new water cooled IM.
It has an Audi TT engine and puts out 185 hp. This car flies!!
Since it's a TT engine it wouldn't take much to boost the power up to 225. The engine looks like it was made for the car and the massive intercooler will keep the intake temperature down.
I picked up some lotto tickets on the way home :-)

Sweet.

I'm taking bets on who kills himself first in one of these things...
I bet George Brown has a big smile on his face, wherever he is....

Vince, Is your concern with too much power or overall weight distribution? Or both?