I haven’t driven much lately, but I noticed a knocking this morning. Temp is also heating up faster than expected.
Looks like I need to take a trip up to Tony’s in Auburn, but can you all give me an idea of what I should expect?
Should I get a flatbed or limp my way up the hill?
Here’s a video:
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It doesn't sound like the fan is rubbing, although I would reach around and check that it's not loose. You could take the valve covers off and check that the pushrods are all seated properly, an end isn't pounded in, a swivel foot isn't broken and the valve train generally is all in good shape and adjusted correctly, although again, from what I can tell it doesn't sound like that either. It also doesn't sound like engine knock, but considering I'm listening via (probably) a phone video it's hard to tell. Have you done the basics- checked timing, made sure the exhaust is tight (and if you're running a Vintage Speed muffler/tailpipes, something isn't loose inside). Again, it doesn't sound like it, but check the carbs and manifolds that they're tight.
Listening to it again, it's possible it's a rod knock- a trailer ride to Tony's is probably a good idea.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Al
Don't forget to let us know the outcome, and pics would be nice if there is carnage- bad rod bearing, or whatever else that rears it's ugly head. Does the engine have a deep sump on it? Has the oil light ever come on (even just for a second or 2) in a corner? Have you noticed a drop in oil pressure?
PS- something else to look for with the valve covers off- a stuck valve- I'm grasping at straws here but if the covers are off it doesn't hurt to look. Maybe have someone turn the engine over (slowly) with the crank pulley so you can watch the valve train on each cylinder?
Another PS- engine size and specs- everything you remember...
A certain Type4 that we know of toasted the rear main bearing due to starvation. The end-play was 0.016" instead of 0.004" and it sounded just like a rod knock.
I would definitely check the valvetrain first. I had a rocker adjuster screw break off, then the adjuster backed off, making a racket kind of like what I'm hearing in your video.
Ohhh... good 1 @DannyP! Ryan- push and pull on the crank pullley- spec is .003- .007" (you'll barely feel any movement). Any more and if it clunks the thrust bearing is worn. I've seen engines with what seems like 1/8" play still running. Not only was the bearing toast, but the case would be pretty beat and needing a resurface at that point as well.
A loose flywheel will also sound similar to a rod knock......
Thanks for all the direction.
My youngest son says it sounds like a woodpecker.
Nothing appears stuck near the fan. But on my 2 mile trip, it was getting worse. I’ll start checking what’s easy for me and leave the rest to Tony.
Pics and details will follow when I get it up to Auburn. Hopefully I can get a shifter upgrade done at the same time.
Given my adventurous history, there should be an SOC Pool for what’s likely to break next.
I want to be ready for a great driving season.
5.00 tool from Harbor Freight will possible isolate the rattle. Listen to the engine in various places and it will also tell you if it’s a distinct knock or something rattling because it’s loose. Could be anything from bad alternator bearing to something internal. Here is a link to common vw engine diagnostic sounds
https://www.ratwell.com/mirror/Muir/Muir.html
I would check the valvetrain first. I also wouldn't run the engine at all if I could help it, until you KNOW what the problem is.
All of this is good info for Ryan, but I'm still hung up on the other thing that he wrote:
"Temp is also heating up faster than expected."
Could the air vane control arm have fallen off allowing the vanes on one side to flap back and forth? I doubt it, because it is repetitive at a specific rate. Heating faster than normal usually means the cylinders aren't getting enough cooling air, like there's something in the fan (like a rag, paper towel or mouse nest - which would also make the fan run unbalanced and might knock) OR there's something blocking air to the cylinder heads (see mouse comment above ). The fan vanes could also be stuck closed for some reason - That'll heat things up right quick.
Ryan: Reach behind the fan shroud. At the bottom of the shroud is a flat, horizontal shaft that connects all four air vanes together to work as one. It is attached to the vane shafts with small springs and 6mm washers. I can't remember how they're held on, but I have seen the keepers fall off. The actuator shaft moves back and forth horizontally and should not move much if you push it, but it should move a tiny bit. It also should move quite a bit as the engine warms up and will remain there til the engine cools off.
While you're back there, use a mirror and flashlight and look into the rear of the fan into the opening to see if anything is in the fan blades - like a mouse condo or something.
Re watching the video, the frequency of the rap sounds slower than the speed of the fan and more like the speed of the engine, so I'm stumped, too. I agree with others - I wouldn't drive it til you know what's going on.
It's a gremlin banging on the engine bay to be let out. Don't answer the knock but don't ignore it either.
It sounded to me like a tinny metallic sound which to me sounded like a fan blade or as Gordon suggested one of the cooling vanes. Start with the simple stuff and move on to the more complex.
The "faster than normal heating" is a problem though. It could be a blocked fan, a paper towel stuffed in there. But if it's a main or connecting rod bearing, there will be metal to metal rubbing and that could explain the "heating".
I'd pull the valve covers and check the valve train. Then check out the fan/flaps and stuff. If they check out, dump the oil. Put a screen in the funnel and look for metal flecks. If you don't see any metal I don't know what to tell you.
But at that point, a full teardown and inspection is more than prudent. That, along with all the other advice given will hopefully help you.
Worst case scenario? Power upgrade!
P.S.: What's the oil level currently? Do you have an oil pressure gauge?
I've seen a couple photo of where the entire fan hub gets rounded out or cracked. Hold fan at back of engine and rotate alternator and see if they turn together of the fan flexes.
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Ryan, it's hard to tell, but I think I can see the strap holding the alternator down moving as you rev the engine.
Can you check to see if that hasn't loosened up?
If it's loose, the fan could be shifting, hitting the shroud intermittently, and that might explain the cooling problem, too.
I think I would send Tony a link to this video, let him watch it, and then call him to see what he thinks.
Also, if you want me to follow you up there, let me know. I may be able to, depending when you go.
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Maybe remove the belt to see if the rattle stops when you Isolate the fan. You will know if it the fan or bearing for sure and an easy check. It sounds like a tinny sound to me too, not a rod nock.
^^THAT^^
I should-a thought of that, too. You can run for a few minutes without the fan - It'll be OK. That should isolate the noise to the block or the fan.
I go with the elongated fan hub. I had the same sound and that is what it was.
Hey Ryan, How did the fix go with your speedster ? Did you figure it out or take in up to Tony's? Just checking in ..........
Dave
I am betting on the fan too; I've had a sound like that and it ended being a piece of paper stuck in the fan. Scared the **** out of me too...
@Ryan (formerly) in NorCal Any updates? Inquiring minds want to know.
Yeah. I'd like to know also.
Hey, we're all waiting...
Sorry all. I've been traveling ever since and didn't want to burden Tony with an extra car on the lot. I'm home now. I'll get it up to Tony ASAP. Thanks for checking in.
@Ryan (formerly) in NorCal- Ok, you've had time and enquiring minds want to know- WE NEED AN UPATE!!!!
Well, here’s what I’ve done so far…
- it’s not the fan. I removed the belt and it still knocks.
- it’s not a simple valve adjustment. I did that and it still knocks, growing fiercer.
- it could be related to my manifold. The right side has some left-right play. But holding it to one side doesn’t appear to “fix” the problem.
- it appears to be in the case.
@Anthony will break it open, diagnose, and fix… but he recommends upgrading the 25k mile engine to a new CB 2110 kit instead, for only a little more in price.
Unfortunately CB has a 12week delay. This would mean missing summer drives! 😞 This can’t be my only option!
But I can get an Aluminum case & kit with similar components from Aircooled Vintage Works in about 2 weeks.
I don’t see anything in our forum about AVW, but they’re all over TheSamba. Any reason I should avoid this option?
updated video:
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Are you SURE you know where all your 10 mm sockets are?
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Aluminum cases seem to be ok, just make sure Tony trims mold flashing and checks for clearances (I'm sure he would). CB is a known and trusted engine vendor, but like you said, thesamba seems to like the AVW. 2110 isn't pushing the envelope.
I got two bucks in the hat for a loose flywheel....
@Ryan (formerly) in NorCal- have you tried pulling out/pushing in the crankshaft pulley?
@Alan Merklin posted:I got two bucks in the hat for a loose flywheel....
I like your guess. I lost a flywheel on an SPG roller crank about 30 years ago. Sounds like “brrrrrp” when you rev it. Depending on how bad it is, crank and flywheel can be redrilled for 11/32 dowel pins.
I had that happen on a dune buggy while running the dunes way out at the tip of Cape Cod. IIRC, I was about 19 years old and chose to drive it home, so by the time I got home the (stock) dowel pin holes were egg-shaped.
What to do? Put it back together as-is, torque the gland nut to about 300 ft. Lbs. (I sat on the end of a 6’ pipe on our breaker bar and bounced it, just to make sure it was tight) and then welded two sides of the gland nut to the flywheel.
I sold the buggy a year later and that guy drove it for another five years.
@ALB posted:@Ryan (formerly) in NorCal- have you tried pulling out/pushing in the crankshaft pulley?
Zero play.
@Sacto Mitch posted:Are you SURE you know where all your 10 mm sockets are?.
This. 🤦♂️
At this point I’m just hoping Tony et al can resurrect this beautiful car for more off-road adventures. Flywheel, rod, I don’t know. But it’s past my ability to diagnose.
@Ryan (formerly) in NorCal posted:Unfortunately CB has a 12week delay. This would mean missing summer drives! 😞 This can’t be my only option!
But I can get an Aluminum case & kit with similar components from Aircooled Vintage Works in about 2 weeks.
I don’t see anything in our forum about AVW, but they’re all over TheSamba. Any reason I should avoid this option?
updated video:
I had never heard of Aircooled Vintage Works. I frequent the Samba almost every day and hadn't run into the name there either. Any idea where they get their stuff from?
It appears a lot of their parts come from CB Performance.(I have never heard of Aircooled Vintage Works either, and have no opinion either way)
Last year it took a while to get things in general, but CBs machine shop was pretty backed up. On the complete motor I built up it took extra time for balancing the crank/flywheel/pressure plate. The parts were in stock. It also took MORE time to get CB the heads flycut to give the compression ratio I wanted. The heads were not in stock, they are CNC ported for each order. Then they are flycut at CB.
The longest component delay was the camshaft from WebCam. That was supposedly for heat-treating, to get a big enough batch to make it worth their while.
Interestingly, aircooled.net was a great place to get the H-beam rods with ARP rod bolts, and the Scat tool-steel lifters(compatible with Webcam, compatibility is IMPORTANT).
Anyway, the supply chain is a big problem. Once you get the parts moving towards you, then you have to negotiate the machining hurdle. Then you have to find a qualified assembler/builder. It can be a lot of ducks to get in a row.
I took the motor apart in January, it was finished in June. Once all the fabrication, installation, and fettling of OTHER parts were done(once they showed up!) the car finally left my shop just before Labor Day. There were transmission issues(not my build). It was a long journey.
@LI-Rick posted:I like your guess. I lost a flywheel on an SPG roller crank about 30 years ago. Sounds like “brrrrrp” when you rev it. Depending on how bad it is, crank and flywheel can be redrilled for 11/32 dowel pins.
If, it is the problem drill for over sized drill pins. I ran into this once in a Spyder I redid and it started knocking at Carlisle as I pulled it off the trailer...what a racket! Back home I pulled the engine that came with the car and found the flywheel loose. I pulled the flywheel and figured what size drill bit it would take to bring the holes back to round and bought eight bits. after each drilling, I cut off the solid end of that bit using it as the dowel pin, worked like a charm.
@Alan Merklin posted:If, it is the problem drill for over sized drill pins. I ran into this once in a Spyder I redid and it started knocking at Carlisle as I pulled it off the trailer...what a racket! Back home I pulled the engine that came with the car and found the flywheel loose. I pulled the flywheel and figured what size drill bit it would take to bring the holes back to round and bought eight bits. after each drilling, I cut off the solid end of that bit using it as the dowel pin, worked like a charm.
Great solution Alan!
Note, there are oversized dowels made for this, but you have to catch it right away or the holes are too elongated for this fix to work.
If the flywheel/crank has the stock 4 dowel pins - it could be redrilled for the now pretty much standard aftermarket 8 dowel pins. Letting it go too long and crank, flywheel, and even transaxle case could be destroyed.
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When I got my (brand new) VS, the engine was already in its second car, or maybe the crank was already in its second engine.
In either case (see what I did there?), the four-pin crank had another set of four egg-shaped holes in between the four holes that were currently occupied. So, what goes around can definitely come around again.
But, I think Anthony's suggestion to take this opportunity to upgrade is probably the best idea. Postponed gratification can have its own rewards.
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I'd prefer an upgrade, provided it could be done in a month. But it looks like it'll be closer to 4 months for an upgrade through CB. That's a deal breaker for me.
I can get an aluminum kit from AVW in 2 weeks, and if Tony was willing to build it, I'd have an upgrade within a month or so. But Tony thinks that's a poor decision and would rather fix my stock engine.
I don't have the skillset for either, but I trust Tony, and would like to drive again ASAP.
I was even open to selling the whole car and buying another if it worked out. Hopefully I'll have a working car by the 2022 West Coast Cruise.
