suspension upgrades

Hey all. I am just figuring out all the options I want before I order my speedster. From reading the forum I have heard about sway bars and independent rear suspension, and I was just wondering what are the advantages and cost etc. involved with these upgrades. thanks

First IRS: VW and Porsche both upgraded to it in later years, why wouldn't you?

Anti-sway bars: The only reason the rear suspension works is because the front suspension is so bad. ZERO camber gain on front suspension geometry in corners. Only solution is to severely limit all body roll and keep the poor tires square on the ground. A big (3/4") front anti-sway bar works pretty good on a light car. Same problem (although less so) in the rear, suggest the same solution.

I agree with David on the IRS and bars. I would add dropped spindles and gas shocks. If you are buying new then neither of these items should add much to the price.

If you really want to handle then you need to upgrade the tires. To make a worth wile change you need to go to a 50 series tire since you can

The quality of the road surface really impacts how these cars handle. Go into a corner (at a fast pace) on a smooth, newer road and well set-up speedster will handle quite well. Go into a corner on a crappy, frost-heaved road and it will scare the crap out of you. I don't care what you've done to your speedster, they do not like cornering on poor, uneven pavement.
Ron

Ron, have to agree with your evaluation. My theory is while my chassis is very stiff, (jack up any one corner and two wheels always come off the ground) the rest of the antique suspension is simply not up to absorbing the terrain and controling the vehicle. I'm putting most of the blame on the basic suspension geometry, because I got max performance tires and good shocks. In theory, new performance cars all have very stiff chassis (mostly unibodies these days) and that is what allows your suspension to work as designed. Formula 1 is an extreme example. I have sometimes noted that on certain roads I am driving at near 90% to keep the vehicle under control. And other vehicles are going near the same speed without any drama. Conclusion, I am at the limits of this vehicle, not necessarily the limits of what the road will allow. Call it a reality check.

Dave your are really not getting the proper diagnosis on the chassis by jacking it up as you described.It's just showing how light the car is . Sorry thats it. However if you look at the opposite side with the weightshift you are able to see the suspension under load. The standard VW front suspension has been know to be very stiff and ridged which is not the greatest for cornering. Understeering is also a problem with the suspension design. The speedster tends to get a push into corners due to most of the weight in the rear end.There is a book by Fred Puhn "How to make you Car Handle" It has a lot of great info in regards to roll centers, frame stiffeness camber / caster angles etc. It's worth taking a look at.

When these cars were designed, the sidewall height of the tires they had to work with, were tall, compared with todays low profile tires. With that initial design, some of the "suspension" or softening of the suspension, was done by the tires. When you put very low profile tires on these cars you lose that. You get a stiffer ride and less forgiving handleing on a bumpy surface, especially when cornering. I put 65 series tires on my car when the 60 series tires wore out and it's more driveable.

Joel, you've made a good point. 50 series tires on these cars can make the ride very stiff. Like you, I'm running 65 series.
Ron

My IM is running 195/60x15 Michelins on 5 1/2" rims, Koni shocks, 24mm rear torsion bars, and 19mm anti-sway bars front and rear; suspension is IRS. Car handles beautifully on every road surface I've encountered so far and is completely stable at 105 (fastest I've run it so far).

One thing none of you mentioned that makes a BIG difference in road surface compliance and handling is wheel/tire weight - my wide five aluminum wheels weigh 10 lbs. each.

George:

"....stable at 105".......is that KPH or MPH?

Why not? My lowly VS with 1776 has been past 90 MPH. With plenty to go if the road was clear.

If you spend what George spent on his, it had better handle great at any speed on any road surface. My Vintage handles terribly, but that's part of what makes in fun (or scary) to drive.

Hey George, at 110 (miles per hour..not kilometres...you metric weanies) I was able to take my hands off of the steering wheel and adjust my hat, straighten my tie, and stir my low fat, no foam latee.
Ron
I was also going to mention scratching my B*lls, but this is mixed company.
Note that scratching your b*lls while driving is worse than talking on your cell phone, and for Heaven's Sake DO NOT scratch your b*lls while talking on your cell phone...George are you listening?

Ron, I am so inclined to respond to your post......but you guys swore me to civility, but let it be known, I do have a rejoinder in the wings for just such an occasion.


Gclarke "The vacaville Guy"

If your toe is out of wack and or your steering box has alot of play/ slop that will make your car unstable at high speeds. Make sure you don't have any bad tie rods.

George's car has rack and pinion steering. That makes a big difference. The combination of torsion bars and shocks Henry used is different than stock, and much better than stock. Also, George is right that the lower unsprung weight, especially on the front, makes a lot of difference. Put all that together and you get a car with pretty good manners.
Ron

Here is a very good article on the subject from a type 1 racer. Your mileage may vary.....

www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/handling.htm

Adam Koller

Ron, it's time to spring for those 'light on the scale, but heavy in the cash outlay' wheels to go with your new motor....your kids are probably thinking, "there goes our university education."
Ron

Ron O wrote (partial): "and stir my low fat, no foam latee"

We have a name for that here, and it's the official State drink for us Rhode Islanders......it's called "Coffee Milk" - made with "Autocrat Coffee Syrup". I can send you some - you'll be the envy of your neighbors and students.

"Hey! What's that?"
"Why, it's Rhode Island Coffee Milk, of course."
"Rhode Island? What's Rhode Island?"
"Not a what, it's a place.....a state I think"
"Oh.....is it part of New York?"
"Must be......like Queens, only smaller"
"Oh......Yeah!......That's right......"

My kids wouldn't give a rat's pit-tooie about Rhode Island, unless Sponge Bob lives there.
Ron
I have no idea what a rat's pit-tooie is, but I like the sound of it....rat's pit-tooie...just sort of rolls off of the tongue...did I get too much sun today?