This may be sacrilegious but.........Since i became obsessed with speedster replicas the past year when i retired I have felt 25-30% of the auctioned speedsters stated mileage was suspicious. Regardless of auction. I realize these are pieced together Frankenstein cars so it makes it easy to change the mileage. I am new to this site and enjoy it but that's my story and i am sticking to it. 
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@wahoo57speedster posted:This may be sacrilegious but.........Since i became obsessed with speedster replicas the past year when i retired I have felt 25-30% of the auctioned speedsters stated mileage was suspicious. Regardless of auction. I realize these are pieced together Frankenstein cars so it makes it easy to change the mileage. I am new to this site and enjoy it but that's my story and i am sticking to it.
Go ahead and stick to it, but I doubt anybody is rolling back odometers.
These cars aren't everybody's cup-'o-tea, and with the market the way it is, it's hard to make an argument for hanging onto something that didn't quite measure up to expectations.
One trip around the block is all it takes for a lot of women to nix the thing. When it's $50K+ sitting there, a guy gets thinking about all the automotive love he can buy for the sale price.
Sometimes, the juice isn't worth the squeeze to people.
I can say this from certainty, many speedster owners are impulse buyers who after a year or less become disenchanted with having minor adjustment and service issues pop up now and then. The owner has zero mechanical abilities and becomes the subject of " their mechanic " who has little of no knowledge of air-cooled. Hence the frustration and resale at minimal mileage.
@Stan Galat posted:Go ahead and stick to it, but I doubt anybody is rolling back odometers.
These cars aren't everybody's cup-'o-tea, and with the market the way it is, it's hard to make an argument for hanging onto something that didn't quite measure up to expectations.
One trip around the block is all it takes for a lot of women to nix the thing. When it's $50K+ sitting there, a guy gets thinking about all the automotive love he can buy for the sale price.
Sometimes, the juice isn't worth the squeeze to people.
Now this was funny "One trip around the block is all it takes for a lot of women to nix the thing. When it's $50K+ sitting there, a guy gets thinking about all the automotive love he can buy for the sale price."
I have seen so many of these cars with claimed low mileage with new gauges. If the car is only a few years old why replace gauges?
Because the gauges that came before the new gauges were garbage. The Brazilian gauges were so/so, the Chinese "VDO" copies were junk.
What do you consider the new gauges. I have seen what appears to be the same VDO gauges going back 10-15 years. I dont claim to be an expert just mentioning what I perceive from a distant. I could be 100% wrong.😄
Your blanket statement suggests that I lied about my odometer reading. If you say, well, not you but..........then did all the others ? If they say, we didn't lie either, then who's is it your talking about ? In the end, I guess we're all sticking to our stories.........Bruce
When I see cars with listed 2000 miles and I read serviced regularly and service is every 3000 miles I am suspicious. Think what you like. I just tossed this out their for discussion because I felt the mileage was suspicious in some of the cars I have followed in auctions the past12-18 months. If I am the only one that feels this way so be it🙂
Ok, I'll bite. I built a Spyder in 2002-2005. From 2005 to 2016 I put 40k plus on it. 40,245 miles to be exact. Everything was new when I built it. No "lies" or "suspicious mileage".
Later in 2016, I built another Spyder. It went on the road in 2017. Today it has about 5k on it. I don't drive as much as I used to, retired in 2019.
In general, most of these cars don't get driven all that much. That's the reason the mileage is low. Period.
When you build a Speedster or Spyder, you're using new gauges. The VW Beetle donor had only a speedometer for "gauges" which physically won't fit in the dash of a Speedster/Spyder.
I really hope the OP isn't trolling. Nobody is doing anything wrong here.
Most of the replicas I see in the major auctions have newer gauges. No problem. So why replace them after Limited mileage. Not a troll . I own a 2014 Auratium Green speedster built by Vintage Speedsters in HA Gardens CA. Like I say just put this out there for discussion. Isnt that what this is for?
A lot of cars of a certain era were originally built with 914 gauges. And, as Stan mentioned, a lot were built with cheesy aftermarket VDO knockoffs. The new GPS speedo gauges that are available now are much better.
All speedsters that I refurbished got a Bill of Sale that no matter what the odometer reading was, included a stated actual mileage statement as TMU.
The bottom line on these cars is the mileage is irrelevant. Some have a few hundred miles when they come up for sale. Some a few thousand. Either way, what you want to know is how the owner(s) treated the car. Was it built properly to begin with? Was it sorted out methodically? Was it garaged? Was the engine filled with the right kind of oil? Did the (Type 1) valves get adjusted properly? When things broke or leaked or sagged (as they inevitably do), were they fixed the right way? Whether the ODO shows 40 or 40,000 miles, these are the questions you want answered.
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So, summing up a few factors:
The knockoff copies of the original VDO gauges were so prone to failure that Beck approached VDO a few years ago and worked with them to make the new, genuine VDO gauges that virtually all modern builders use. These are the 'new' gauges that Stan and Dave ( @dlearl476 ) are talking about. And yes, it's very common for folks getting a used car ready for market to swap in these 'new' gauges for their old dysfunctional ones.
And Ed is also right about the condition, maintenance, and sorting being much more important than actual mileage.
But the biggest factor is probably, as Stan points out, just how impractical and unsuitable these cars are for daily use — something the starstruck buyer often doesn't realize until after the sale. Many folks are too sheepish to admit their mistake, maybe reasoning they'll drive it more eventually, but often end up putting on only a few hundred miles a season — mainly on ice cream runs and local hops to C&C. These are a lot of the 5-10 year-old cars you see on the market with under 2000 miles on the clock.
Even if you buy into all the car's shortcomings for daily driving and decide to drive it as much as possible anyway, you're just not going to rack up huge miles, even compared to other 'playtoy' cars, like a Boxster, Miata, or Bimmer.
I live in northern California, where the weather is more suited than in most of the country to what's essentially a topless car with no heat, AC, rainproofing, or ventilation, and I've only managed 45,000 miles in 10 years. And that's probably on the high side of average — even for the dedicated crazies who hang out here. If I have a three-hour slog on the freeway ahead of me, and no 'fun' driving on the other end, the Speedy is not my first choice for the mission. Or my second.
If you're more used to modern, factory-produced cars, a lot of different rules apply here, and low mileage on an older, legitimate example is one of them.
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Thank you for educating me. I have been following this market for 12-18 months and have owned one for a year. I am a car guy. Have owned 30 Model A Sedan, 22 Dodge pickup, 62 pontiac Bubbletop pontiac w/389 quad, Fiat SuperBrava, Vw GLI, nd a 95 Miata I owned for 21 years finally sold it with 170k miles. I wanted an old school technology to tinker with. The Speedster is easily my favorite car. I live in Sherwood OR and have been caught in the rain at the beach at car shows. It is not a daily driver. I love this car. My wife hates it. She hates the smell of gas in garage. We take two cars to the coast. She is 5'1 and sits on a pillow. She says why would you own a car you can't lock and is so primitive? I love this car and it is an attention whore. 😄
I have always been intrigued that the style of a 356, either Speedster or Cabriolet, attracts women at car shows like a magnet - "Oh.... Isn't this one pretty!" but those same women probably would (do) hate riding in one for all of those reasons.
These cars aren't for everyone.
@wahoo57speedster posted:Thank you for educating me. I have been following this market for 12-18 months and have owned one for a year. I am a car guy. Have owned 30 Model A Sedan, 22 Dodge pickup, 62 pontiac Bubbletop pontiac w/389 quad, Fiat SuperBrava, Vw GLI, nd a 95 Miata I owned for 21 years finally sold it with 170k miles. I wanted an old school technology to tinker with. The Speedster is easily my favorite car. I live in Sherwood OR and have been caught in the rain at the beach at car shows. It is not a daily driver. I love this car. My wife hates it. She hates the smell of gas in garage. We take two cars to the coast. She is 5'1 and sits on a pillow. She says why would you own a car you can't lock and is so primitive? I love this car and it is an attention whore. 😄
My wife hates it ... that made me laugh but it is true, gas smell, my hair gets messy, I sit too low etc etc. are common complaints but it truly a recreation machine, in night time driving you can see the stars and in the daytime expecially near highway 1 the ocean takes your breath away ... hard to get those benefits in a hardtop...
Then there is the opposite female take on Speedsters that being my wife loves them through and through. She knows everything there is to know about their functions and quirks, doesn't whine about wind in her hair.... she'll bring along a ball and cap hair brush. Lastly she still talks about that 200plus HP silver outlaw from Texas I finished that she loved to drive that :~)
I think a better question as to Speedsters and mileage, is what was the original mileage on the (if used) motor before they were transferred to the Speedster and connected to new gauges that showed zero mileage. Gauges show mileage since the Speedster build was completed, not necessarily what's on the motor or tranny or frame (a re-build doesn't mean zero mileage).
I find that if you ask how many miles were on the 2003 Subaru Legacy that went into a new Speedster build, you don't get an answer. It's a matter of "true mileage unknown"
Currently on BAT
"Said to have been assembled in 2016.....The six-digit mechanical odometer shows 641 miles, all of which were added under current ownership."
So actual mileage on the pan (before reconditioning) actual mileage on the motor (before re-build if any) and mileage on the body is unknown. Mileage on the Gauges IS known 
@WNGD -
This is not the first or second time you've brought this point up, and I wonder what you're driving at.
Have you ever seen the process the respected builders use to build a turnkey? It's not the same as a homebuilt. Greg, etc. are not buying old VWs and steam-cleaning the chassis, engine, and transaxle, then dropping a body on top.
There used to be a shot of the old VS where Kirk had probably 100 "pans", which were really just central tunnels, frame horns, and the front Napoleon's hat standing up, leaning one on the next. I'd bet there wasn't 100 lbs of "original" left in what he started with. There weren't even pan-halves left. Greg does the same thing.
Beck doesn't even start with a tunnel (and VIN). Their frames are 100% fabricated, in house, by the elves in Bremen.
Either way, every car gets a new beam, new torsion bars, new shocks, new steering components, new hubs, new brakes, new transaxle, and a new engine - new everything. The car is entirely new. Receipts are available upon request.
I'm really not sure what the relevance of the total mileage of the "donor" car before it was stripped to its central spine, but perhaps I'm missing something.
I think the year building is t is very relevant. When I was in college I worked at a plant that made fiberglass septic tanks. They would send them to tundra area and large ships. I learned a lot about fiberglass and started building furniture and repairing cars on the side. Fiberglass ages, cracks and when the gel coat or finish paint wears you can see fibers. I was seriously looking at a black Intermechanica that was easily over 20 years old. From afar it looked beautiful. The owner had the car really dirty and dusty like a garage find. I asked him if I flew to Passadena to see the car could we wash the car. He said no. I could see some areas near the windshield that were worn through. He denied any issues with paint and fiberglass. As I have said before these are Frankenstein cars and you need to know all aspects of the build
Without cooperation you know your being taken, I mean do you want to sell the car or not? Good for you to catch this guy misrepresenting the car or at least not being forthright from the get go means stay away... Fryer alert...(scammer)
As to what Stan said, yes IM and Beck always built from completely new parts unless repurposed parts were agreed upon and so mileage has less of an issue unless a used engine or tranny is being used. Not the case for other home builder projects hence the kit car label does not really fit for manufactured cars ... but then it depends on the manufacturer. Buyer beware again.
@Stan Galat posted:@WNGD -
This is not the first or second time you've brought this point up, and I wonder what you're driving at.
Have you ever seen the process the respected builders use to build a turnkey? It's not the same as a homebuilt. Greg, etc. are not buying old VWs and steam-cleaning the chassis, engine, and transaxle, then dropping a body on top.
There used to be a shot of the old VS where Kirk had probably 100 "pans", which were really just central tunnels, frame horns, and the front Napoleon's hat standing up, leaning one on the next. I'd bet there wasn't 100 lbs of "original" left in what he started with. There weren't even pan-halves left. Greg does the same thing.
Beck doesn't even start with a tunnel (and VIN). Their frames are 100% fabricated, in house, by the elves in Bremen.
Either way, every car gets a new beam, new torsion bars, new shocks, new steering components, new hubs, new brakes, new transaxle, and a new engine - new everything. The car is entirely new. Receipts are available upon request.
I'm really not sure what the relevance of the total mileage of the "donor" car before it was stripped to its central spine, but perhaps I'm missing something.
I'm not "driving at" anything but I like the reference.
I gave an example of one of the few things that bothers me in some sales. The Subie engine was listed as coming out of an old Subaru Legacy but and the replica had 600 miles on it (for instance, I don't remember the specifics). When I asked how many miles were on the original motor, which can be rebuilt or refreshed or neither, I found crickets. And I think closer to what the OP was asking, if a replica gets new gauges that show little mileage, what were the miles on the old replica gauges is a valid question.
Unscrupulous used car sellers have been buying scrapped gauge clusters for all kinds of cars to "roll back the mileage" for decades or kids unhook the speedo and drive off the tach etc. That's why many ad sites list "odometer shows X but total mileage is unknown" which is fair.
There's nothing wrong with acknowledging wrinkles in the hobby but this has nothing to do with Beck, who I have the utmost respect for. They're much closer to custom coach builders.
I think WNGD's point is in regards to all car purchases but in most cases researching the car vendor at times is as much of an education as the car itself. There are Scammers everywhere, period, no matter the area of life.
@Stan Galat posted:@WNGD -
This is not the first or second time you've brought this point up, and I wonder what you're driving at.
Have you ever seen the process the respected builders use to build a turnkey? It's not the same as a homebuilt. Greg, etc. are not buying old VWs and steam-cleaning the chassis, engine, and transaxle, then dropping a body on top.
There used to be a shot of the old VS where Kirk had probably 100 "pans", which were really just central tunnels, frame horns, and the front Napoleon's hat standing up, leaning one on the next. I'd bet there wasn't 100 lbs of "original" left in what he started with. There weren't even pan-halves left. Greg does the same thing.
Beck doesn't even start with a tunnel (and VIN). Their frames are 100% fabricated, in house, by the elves in Bremen.
Either way, every car gets a new beam, new torsion bars, new shocks, new steering components, new hubs, new brakes, new transaxle, and a new engine - new everything. The car is entirely new. Receipts are available upon request.
I'm really not sure what the relevance of the total mileage of the "donor" car before it was stripped to its central spine, but perhaps I'm missing something.
That's why the video just posted by EMPI was so perfect. It really shows what Greg does to make these cars "new".
My car is over 16 years old, built by Kirk with VS, had one previous owner, with original paperwork, and still has less than 7000 miles. My wife won't ride in it, thinks its unsafe or some crazy thing like that. My kids, who are young adults now, love it. I think everyone should know how to drive a stick shift, this is what my son learned on.
@Robert M posted:That's why the video just posted by EMPI was so perfect. It really shows what Greg does to make these cars "new".
100%
Even with IM's recent departure from new Speedster manufacturing, I think the hobby has 2 top notch choices in addition to SOME of the used market.
@356GS (Greg) posted:My car is over 16 years old, built by Kirk with VS, had one previous owner, with original paperwork, and still has less than 7000 miles. My wife won't ride in it, thinks its unsafe or some crazy thing like that. My kids, who are young adults now, love it. I think everyone should know how to drive a stick shift, this is what my son learned on.
I taught my daughter on her crappy Fiat 500. This Winter I taught her how to get out of being stuck in the snow....she's very competent now yet none of her friends, including her boyfriend can drive stick.
Like Stan and others have said the gauges are not great. I replaced a set of ~2000 ish Brazilian VDO gauges because the tach didn't work with new Beck VDO gauges that they have made for them. Best thing I have done to the car yet. The speedo is GPS and is rock steady, the gas gauge reads right and doesn't bounce, and the digital odometer/trip actually works.
https://youtu.be/mhVUxeU_VEU Thanks for posting this Robert.
This video is really good to show the assembly line that Vintage has developped not unlike other manufacturers that I have visited.
@WNGD posted:Gauges show mileage since the Speedster build was completed, not necessarily what's on the motor or tranny or frame (a re-build doesn't mean zero mileage).
I find that if you ask how many miles were on the 2003 Subaru Legacy that went into a new Speedster build, you don't get an answer. It's a matter of "true mileage unknown"
I'm slow, but I think I'm finally starting to understand.
Are you saying that the mileage on a motor or transaxle prior to being rebuilt is relevant to you? If this is what you are asking, I can understand why you get "crickets" to the question.
If you are buying a new (rebuilt) Subaru engine from (say) Outfront Motorsports, nobody knows the history, mileage, or any other particulars of the engine prior to its rebuild. Ditto Rancho - nobody has any idea what particular car this mainshaft came out of, or that 4th gear. Any OEM parts in the rebuild are likely from a bin of known good parts and could be from several (many?) different vehicles.
As far as I know, almost nobody is going down to the salvage yard and buying a 1996 Subaru core engine, then taking it someplace to be rebuilt.
I understand the hesitance to call every rebuild a "new" engine, as a rebuild from Autozone or NAPA might not be as good as a new OEM "crate" engine. However, even there, you're never going to get information on any of the particulars of this particular engine, because they're doing the same thing (reusing used parts that are within specs). You order and receive an engine, you send them back your core and they rebuild it for somebody else.
A hot-rod engine builder with a good reputation checks every single component before using it, upgrades when needed, and makes improvements to the stock configuration. In my mind, that's better than a new engine, because it makes more power and addresses the shortcomings of the stock configuration. I'm just gullible enough to believe that the aftermarket can fix things OEMs would rather gloss over.
I know there are hucksters out there, and maybe I'm too trusting - but I'm not seeing a guy who doesn't know the complete history of his rebuilt Subaru engine as being evasive.
@Stan Galat posted:I'm slow, but I think I'm finally starting to understand.
Are you saying that the mileage on a motor or transaxle prior to being rebuilt is relevant to you? If this is what you are asking, I can understand why you get "crickets" to the question.
If you are buying a new (rebuilt) Subaru engine from (say) Outfront Motorsports, nobody knows the history, mileage, or any other particulars of the engine prior to its rebuild. Ditto Rancho - nobody has any idea what particular car this mainshaft came out of, or that 4th gear. Any OEM parts in the rebuild are likely from a bin of known good parts and could be from several (many?) different vehicles.
As far as I know, almost nobody is going down to the salvage yard and buying a 1996 Subaru core engine, then taking it someplace to be rebuilt.
I understand the hesitance to call every rebuild a "new" engine, as a rebuild from Autozone or NAPA might not be as good as a new OEM "crate" engine. However, even there, you're never going to get information on any of the particulars of this particular engine, because they're doing the same thing (reusing used parts that are within specs). You order and receive an engine, you send them back your core and they rebuild it for somebody else.
A hot-rod engine builder with a good reputation checks every single component before using it, upgrades when needed, and makes improvements to the stock configuration. In my mind, that's better than a new engine, because it makes more power and addresses the shortcomings of the stock configuration. I'm just gullible enough to believe that the aftermarket can fix things OEMs would rather gloss over.
I know there are hucksters out there, and maybe I'm too trusting - but I'm not seeing a guy who doesn't know the complete history of his rebuilt Subaru engine as being evasive.
OK Stan I'll keep playing.
You have a Speedster replica with 15,000 miles on the old crappy gauges so you replace them with new and improved replica gauges. Then you sell the car 2000 miles later.
Do you advertise the car with 15,000 or 2,000 miles on the car? Because people sell the car as "2000 cars on the odometer" or BAT makes them say "total mileage unknown"
For sure the next seller that puts on an additional 3000 miles advertises it as 5000 miles.
You hit the nail on the head. That's my suspicion CV ion. Should be 17000 not 2000.
@WNGD posted:OK Stan I'll keep playing.
You have a Speedster replica with 15,000 miles on the old crappy gauges so you replace them with new and improved replica gauges. Then you sell the car 2000 miles later.
Do you advertise the car with 15,000 or 2,000 miles on the car? Because people sell the car as "2000 cars on the odometer" or BAT makes them say "total mileage unknown"
For sure the next seller that puts on an additional 3000 miles advertises it as 5000 miles.
Me? I'd figure out how to make the odometer read correctly, or I'd disclose everything I know. The total mileage isn't "unknown" - it's 17,000 mi. Honor is doing the right thing when there's nobody checking.
I've got no idea what anybody else is doing
.... and I suspect nobody here does either.
Fair enough, I have no dog in the fight, I just understand what the OP was getting at.
I see used cars advertised as car with 170,000 miles, new engine swapped out at 130, engine has 40,000 miles on it. That's honest. If the odometer showed 40, that's honest.
My car has 45k-ish miles (I think) on the odometer, but I've had 5 different engines in it and 4 transaxles. There's a 6th engine on a stand waiting to go.
The car has 45k-ish miles, but there's not a lot of relevance in that number. The paint is original, but paint is on the list to be done in the next several years. I'm redoing a bunch of things this winter because I want to run a different wheel/tire package (this is the third time for wheels and tires). I'm replacing wheel bearings and seals with FAG parts because new brakes need new bearings. Even the cockpit seats have been swapped three times. If something is tired or tattered, or if I don't love it - I replace it. Gauges are original, but have been rebuilt by NHS. I had them set the odometer to the proper number.
I realize I'm not normal, but lots of guys make this a hobby, and change or modify things because they can and they want to, which makes total mileage pretty irrelevant (at least to me).
I'm proud of every mile I've rolled in my car.
Yours is an example where you would honestly say "the car has an odometer noted 45,000 miles on it but had a new/rebuilt engine installed last year that has just 8000 or whatever.
I am much more interested in what parts were used in the build, who built the various components and the maintenance history. I’d take a 40k mile Pat Downs built engine over a 400 mile Bernie Bergmann special, assuming the Pat Downs engine has been properly maintained. To me, mileage on hobby cars means nothing.
