Sway Bar Needed

Many of us on this forum replace the stock front sway bar with a thicker aftermarket bar.  Many also add a rear sway bar, if you have IRS, or camber compensator if you have a swing axle.

If you're just going to putter around it's probably not necessary.  Personally, I wouldn't drive one of these crates without aftermarket bars, front and rear.

Thank you RonO. Any aftermark supplier that I can look at that is a good source?

Actually, almost all of the VS cars simply use a stock, 1970 VW beetle sway bar mounted upside down (for clearance).  You can get one from a salvage (junk) yard and it should be about 3/8" in diameter for a car with a 1600 engine.

If you want a new one, most of us use bars from "Sway-Away", available from Cip1, SoCal Imports or CB Performance.  Again, for your car, I would not go thicker than 3/8".

Bluespeedster; here's the set-up on my '95 VS w/swing arm axles. Standard front & rear anti-sway bars from EMPI. As you'll notice, I had to modify my front bumper brackets to properly install the front bar. After installing both, difference in handling was like night & day.

I'm a cruiser so not so much racing around, but taking a corner at speed is a lot of fun! 

(click on pics to enlarge) 

Oooops. Im missing something.

I've been told that a sway bar was NOT to be installed on a swing axle. That it made for spooky handling...

Carl....  Some few people have experimented with sway bars on the rear end of swing axle applications....  

The results most often were not the ones desired...  Think camber compensators....

Front sway bars should be a "Norm" for any of our cars.... 

I read (believe in the Keith Seume VW Performance book) that if you go to a larger than stock front sway bar that you "must" (for handling safety) add a rear IRS sway bar or a swing axel camber compensator.  

Below is my mock up of altered front CMC bumper bracket.  And one of the "oops" the original one interferes with the sway bar.

remember that sway bar gos up&down a lot.I have the big single on the front of my bug and it's great. but it does get in the way of things I will build a proper one for the 356 that pivots in main bar like most.so it is staionary. you may also look at mounting it on top of the lower arm, or possiably botom of the upper control arms. there are many ways to skin a cat, some will get you scratched,some get you bit, some get you a dead cat, and then there is the one that gets you arested, choose you method&tools wizely.

If someone does want to try a swing axle rear sway bar, like Jim's, I have one I could be persuaded to part with.

I didn't even know you could buy a sway bar for a swing axle suspension.  I thought the only option was a camber compensator.  Is the camber comp. better?

Sway bar

Camber compensator

The improvement in handling that I noticed after adding front & rear anti-sway bars on my swing axle VS may be due to the fact that it handled like sh*t before (the tail end would get REAL squirrelly through a fast corner). I will disconnect the rear sway bars (only) and try the same maneuvers to compare.

I would like to try a camber compensator to determine if that should be a permanent replacement on my car.  

Ron:  Unless I'm missing something, the sway bar you show in the top picture is for an IRS rear end, while the camber bar shown in the bottom picture is for a swing axle rear. 

Why do I think this?  Because, while they do, indeed, sell anti-sway bars for swing-axle cars, the ends of the bars have holes to accept horizontal mounting bolts from a "dog-bone" connnector and another mounting plate that attaches (typically) to the lower shock absorber mount to accept the lower end of the dog bone.  That dog bone link allows the axle to go up and down in a slightly different arc than the ends of the sway bar and it all works.  The bar itself is mounted to the rear torsion tube with big, clamp-style mounts.  If the bar you show is supposedly for a swing axle car, then there will be a lot of angular forces on the connecting link (a bolt in that picture) and I would expect premature fatigue.  Interestingly, a close look at MUSBJIM's last photo of the rear bar setup shows the EMPI bar that is in Ron's picture, going against all that I've said, right?  But they get away with it by making the holes in the mounts really big compared to the diameter of the bolts used, and then rely on the shock washers to allow angular movement of the connecting bolts as the swing arms move in an arc, while the sway bar moves in a line.  (Get the picture?)  Porsche designers saw that problem and always used a double-bolt connecting link to eliminate that movement difference.  For the amount that we drive these cars and the cost of new shock bushings every few years (whenever the bar starts to rattle), either one will work.

Is a rear sway bar better than a camber compensator?  Some say yes, some no.  It all depends on how the rest of the suspension (both front and rear) are set up, the four corner balance/imbalance, weight distribution front to back and all that stuff.  I've run both on VW beetles in autocross, and they both do OK, but neither come close to a well set up IRS rear.

That makes perfect sense, Gordon! Thanks for that tip. With that said, I guess I've pretty much reached optimum street handling with these anti-sway bars on my swing axle and would probably not gain any significant advantage with camber compensator.

Like I've said many times before, I learn something new every time I visit this site. Cool!

Carl, here's my CC on my car, FYI.

niiiiiice header Rich!

Thanks, Paul, that would be my Tangerine Racing system. Costly but nice and it allows excellent ride height.

I'm really mesmerized Rich, by those powder coated intestines you have for an exhaust system on the Type4.

BTW, I also have a camber bar installed on my VS, but was told that a sway bar was 'dangerous' on a swing axle...Soooo, like Jim Ignacio, I learn something new every time I visit this site.

My recommendation would be to at least use a stock front anti sway bar. If the rear is swingaxle I would install a camber compensator; if it's IRS I'd probably just leave it alone. When my VS was ordered and delivered a few years ago it came without a front anti sway bar (!) so I got a thicker aftermarket one from Bugpack with the urethane bushing and clamp installation kit and came up with the idea to notch and add metal plates to the front bumper brackets to allow the bar to travel (as in Jim's photos above). On the rear I installed an EMPI camber compensator; it's worked beautifully ever since.

!Thread Hijack Alert!

Perhaps Paul (Mango) has some idea how cool this is, but I'd like to hold forth for a bit on exactly how insanely cool Rich's exhaust really is.

By way of explanation for the normal people on this forum (since Rich is humble), what he has there is something pretty special-- it's a true Tri-Y exhaust set-up. The primary pipes from the appropriate cylinders (1&3, 2&4 in our engines) are joined at a tuned point, where they run as two pipes for another predetermined length together before they join in a head-pipe (which is also of an optimal length) before dumping into the muffler. Doing this is about 10x harder than building an equal-length 4/1 header (which is itself ridiculously hard), but the benefits of a Tri-Y are pretty astounding-- tons of torque, right where you want/need it. It's not a drag-race header, it's the ultimate street header. Comparing this exhaust to a regular Tri-mil, or EMPI single pack is like comparing a Model T to a 991.

Tangering Racing makes these systems for Type 4s, and for 356/912 engines. The bulk of their business is 914s. The systems run north of $2K.

Since I am not a normal man, I'd love one of these for a Type 1, which is a product that does not exist at the present. However, since I'm insane, I got in touch with Chris Foley (Tangerine Racing) last month to gauge his interest in building a Tri-Y system for a Type 1 application. I surmised there would be some interest in this for guys like me, who are really, really sick, and who want the ultimate solution for a Type 1 exhaust. Chris expressed interest, and put the ball back in my court by offering to build it.

I was an early-adopter for the A1 sidewinder. I've built 3 exhaust around A1 headers, and have enough time/money in speedster exhausts to buy really decent 914 and put a Tangerine Racing header on it. And probably take a vacation in Mexico and have some pocket money left over. I've got many, many hours, and many, many hundreds of dollars in my present exhaust (complete with a muffler bypass cut-out valve)... but I still pine for this one.

This is the ultimate. I just can't justify it after all I've got in mine, but I'd climb all over it if my name rhymed with "Won O'Smack" and I was re-doing the header on my car.

I've got what I think is a pretty cool car right about now, but I've struck out 20 times for every single I've rolled out to left. Rich stepped up to the plate, and hit one out of the park. First swing.

A camber compensator is designed to counteract the jacking forces inherent in the swing axle design. As the cornering forces push inward on the outside tire in a turn, the outside axle swings downward, the chassis is jacked upward, and the inside axle also swings downward because its inside pivot is being raised along with the chassis. If it continues, the outside wheel tucks in, the tire gets severe positive camber, you loose rear traction and you get sudden oversteer.

The compensator keeps the outside axle from drooping low enough to tuck. As the outside drops, the compensator pivots and pushes up on the inside axle. This motion is resisted by the inside spring. Also because it is tied to the chassis in the center, it produces a downward force on the chassis helping to resist the jacking force.

Lowering the car can also have a similar effect, because the outside axle is initially angled upward vs the stock downward angle, it takes more sideways force to produce the same amount of jacking height before wheel tuck. Droop limiting straps can serve a similar but less effective job.

Another benefit is the compensator's center pivot makes it work without adding extra roll resistance. Increasing roll resistance on the rear increases oversteer, generally not what's wanted.

Adding an anti-roll bar increases rear roll resistance which will increase oversteer. Also because it makes the inside axle move in the same direction as the outside axle, it can make the jacking effect even worse. If you do add one, you must increase the size of the front bar to try and get the oversteer/understeer balance back. But a rear anti-roll bar is doing the exact opposite job of a camber compensator and counteract its effects.

Basically, a camber compensator is a necessary safety item. A rear anti-roll bar is an generally an unwanted option on a swing axle because it breaks what we were trying to fix with the compensator.

Some good diagrams here: http://auskellian.com/paul/lin...nhancements.htm#rear

thanks justinh,Im gladd I have irs.ocd,crs& what ever I happen to have.this is mostly kinda new for me as Im a drag racer(dirt bikes too).Ive got a lot to learn on road cars& proper setups, but like everything else there are so many varring ideas on what works&what works. and throw in small tires& Im almost lost, gladd it isant dark.

Gordon, I'm just going by what's shown on Cip1's website.  Personally, I'd go with the camber compensator.

Stan, Won O'Smack.....very funny.

Presently, I'm waiting for my A1 header, which I ordered 5 weeks ago.  I'd love to go with something fancy, but I only have so much $$$ in my 'car account'.  Once that's gone the boss is turning off the money tap.