In ordering my V/S I'd like to stay with the 1600CC type 1 motor just as the emblem shows. With V/S dual carb arrangement, the motor is rated to 70bhp or better said 65bhp at the wheels. I would like to increase the hp w/o changing the CC. I have heard one can increase slightly hp by honing the manifold ports, apply a free flow exhaust, use a 110 cam and special carbs. Can anyone shed some light on this as far as to exhaust system w/o being super loud, carb type and anyother suggestion you may have experienced. Thank you.
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A reference:
http://www.aircooled.net/vw-engine-how-to/
(scroll down)
Other sources for info include "The Samba" VW site and/or "ShopTalkForums"
Blue Speedster.....Your wallet / life's savings , are your limiting factors.....They're all kinds of cylinder heads, exhaust systems, carburetor setups out there, some of which ( in the correct combination can grab a streetable 90 /95 hp..... And then you progress into what might be called "The Racing Motor" area, with H.P. limited by cash flow....
If you want to stay basicly sane on the scene, I'd go with "Baby" Dell's for carbs (34s), the 110 cam (maybe slightly warmer), and talk to an exhaust supplier about your muffler choice....
Do yourself a favor and get a 1776cc motor at minimum, ( a 1915 is the best bang for the buck) because the 1600 will just not cut it , you will not be happy being under powered and end up replacing it....so IMHO do it once, do right the first time around. ~Alan
The thing you will really want is not horsepower but torque. They used to say in Detroit, "Horsepower sells cars but torque wins races."
The reason for this is, peak horsepower on any engine--and especially a very small engine like a 1600--has to come at high rpm in order to be impressive. (For a modern example of this phenomenon, check out the Honda S2000, which I believe was built with a goal of sporting 250 horse from its tiny 2 liter engine. Honda did it, but the 250 horses come at something like 8300 rpm. The engine makes something like 150 ft-lbs torque and that's at maybe 7500 rpm.)
This means that, to get full enjoyment from the car, you've got to rev it to the stratosphere every time.
Note also: the difference between the 7500 rpm torque peak and the 8300 rpm hp peak is only 800 rpm. That's called the "power band" and it's not a lot of wiggle room.
Bigger engines tend to give you a lower rpm torque peak and a wider power band. That makes your driving experience much more fun.
Running at lower rpms tends also to make your engine last longer.
So, in your example, building a 1600 Type 1 to 90 horse is doable but, best case scenario you're going to get engine that makes 90 horse at 7000 rpm and pulls peak torque--maybe 80 ft-lbs--at 5500. You'll be able to tell everyone "it's got 90 horsepower, just like an old Super 90," and show them the dyno slip to prove it. But you won't be able to pull away from anyone at a stop light.
Or you could build a 1915 to make 90 horse at 6000 rpm and make 85 ft-lbs at 4000. That would give you roll-on power when you're cruising down the highway at 75 and still want to pass someone. The greater torque will extend down towards idle too, so you'll be able to take off from a dead stop with much more authority.
The 1915 will not look any different from the 1600, btw. You could tell people it's a 1600 and they could never never know you were lying unless they pulled the heads off and mic'd your cylinders.
Of course, 90 horse isn't ver much either, and with a crankshaft change you could get even more cc and more low end torque, and the engine will still look like a 1600.
This is why so few of the members of this board run stock-sized engines.
..or you you could stroke the 1915 to 2054 like mine and really add some torque. I wanted more torque, because I knew that I most of my driving would be from 0-45 around town and I wanted to feel it in the seat of my pants when I left a traffic light. Very happy with this engine.
The very first time that you pull out in front of a truck or bus "with plenty of room" or drive down an on-ramp and try to merge into speeding traffic and step on the gas and the car sort-of, kind-of, leisurely accelerates and the truck/bus/traffic gets REALLY close because your little 1,600 can't accelerate you out of the way.......You'll wish you opted for at least a 1,776cc.
You could, as you say, build a 1600 "super" with some ported stock valve heads (big valves are too big for a 1600), dual carbs (exactly what will depend on your choice), 1 3/8" merged exhaust and a cam that revs to 5000 (Engle W100) or 5500 (W110- it won't quite have the bottom end power it would have with the milder cam) rpm. Power will be about what an original speedster had (75-80 or so hp) and will be perfectly adequate for toodling around town, cruising down to the beach or going for ice cream. You'll have to watch what gears are put in the transaxle- if you go the "freeway flyer" route you'll have overheating problems with the small motor at highway speeds as it will be working too hard, even in it's modified state. The shorter gears will limit top cruising speeds slightly, and combined with the lower power output, some people find that a little unsettling on today's highways.
You could use a cam with more duration and get more power; an Engle w120 will let the motor rev to 6000rpm and with a W125 it'll rip to 6500. The problem now is that with the small motor, bottom end will seriously suffer and mileage won't be quite as great (especially when you're foot's into it). The W125 will also take you into new territory; dual springs and the increased maintenance and wear that more rpm’s brings. Now the motor will be a little higher strung and not the dependable little watch winder it could have been. It will need plugs more often and instead of the heads coming off at 30 or 40,000 miles they’ll need attention in as little as 15-20,000 miles, depending on how heavy your foot is.
Increasing the motor's displacement with a bigger piston/cylinder kit doesn't cost much more; the set sells for about the same, and the case and heads have to be machined ($150?, not much considering the price of the motor) but there are benefits. A larger motor will have more bottom end/midrange power (this is where you'll be doing 90% of your driving), and as long as you're not ripping it up all the time it will still get great mileage, because of the increased torque. It will last as long as a stocker (again, as long as you're not constantly beating on it), not look any different than a 1600 with dual carbs and maintenance will be about the same as any VW aircooled motor. A 1776 (90.5mm pistons), 1835 (92's) or 1915 (94's) with the W110 will produce 90-100hp and with the added cc's have more power down low, which will ultimately be more fun to drive.
Having been around VW motors a long time (I bought my first bug in 1974 and built my first hot rod motor in ’75 or ’76), I think the perfect speedster motor is a mild 2 liter (78x90.5) or 2165 (78x94) . It would rev to 5500 or 6000 rpm with power, have killer torque characteristics, get great mileage, be easy to take care of and be so much fun!!! Somehow though, I don’t think I’m going to be able to talk you into that…
Please take the time to look over the link that Scott provided; specifically, “Building a big VW Aircooled engine” and “Aircooled VW engine easy bolt on modifications”. And after reading, don’t be afraid to ask questions; that’s what we’re here for. Al
There's a place for being authentic and I think it would be best kept parked in the garage
where it'll look real nice all pretty and shiny. Now, if you want to drive it...that's another story addressed by the posts above.
What Rich said X2.
Remember torque is what makes HP. HP with low torque is like a wet Oreo cookie
" Edsnova" I am impressed with your accurate post !
Mr. Blue: if you've already got your car in the VS pipeline, just get in touch with their engine builder and discuss your needs and wants with him. I'm sure you can be accommodated.
Add: By the way, don't be concerned about "...what the emblem shows".
Bluespeedster, listen to the above advice. You will not be happy with a 1600 cc engine, unless most of your driving will be cruising around a retirement village.
Go with a 1915cc engine. No one will be able to tell the difference.
Bluespeedster, do what Ron O says -- except the part about "no one will be able to tell the difference".
More correctly it could be added: You want to make sure the guy you some day sell the car to knows the difference. He will pay more for for a 1915 than a 1600. (For all the same reasons you should).
BTW, my car has a high-mile 1500 cc engine in basically stock trim. I am going to go for more grunt but I have also driven the car with great joy for the past three years, including 400 miles to Virginia Beach and back in highway traffic. She did fine all day at 70 mph, though I do think Schu will testify that he could have gone faster. His car has 1641 cc and dual carbs.
At least go with the 87mm P&C for the 1641 cc and a counter weighted cam. I have very old set of German Mahle 88mm slip in P&C that I'll use for a light dune buggy build - it gives 1679 cc. I wouldn't go 88mm with new China parts.
a counter-weighted cam?
Thank you everyone for your response. Specially Al (ALB), Edsnova & Scott S for the details. I'll review the links and talk with the motor manufacture. The high torque makes sense for I would like to do a lot of country and mountain driving- love rolling hills more than city and freeway driving; its suicide here in southern california. Thanks everyone again I after reading the links suggested I would like to post more questions. This site is really great.
My first was a 1600cc and and my new one is a 1915. Great for the first 800 miles so far but to honest i want more!! if it were me (and it was me a few months ago) I would upgrade. The cost is insignificant compared to the driveability...
Have you driven an air cooled 1600?
Bill (crhemi) I had a 1600cc 1958 bug at 18 & was a very reliable care. but for life of me I can not remember if it had a pick up & go.
TDR- your new one is hot, i saw it at v/s during the finishing touches. How long did you have your 1600cc b-4 selling it & did you get what you were asking for it??
Thank you! I had my 1600 vs with dual carbs for a year before I sold it. The car was 10 yrs old and it sat in a lawyers garage - then was bought by and sold to me by south Atlanta Motor sports. It was built by Vintage. I think I showed you pics before..iIt was my red one. I got less than what I was asking and after a year of ownership I lost about 2K in price and about 2k fixing the motor.
Just a little more theory and context from Ed (because Dr. Clock encouraged me).
On power-to weight ratio:
Your Speedster will weigh about 1600 pounds (generally speaking, if you do not lard it up with a lot of anti-Speedster accessories). That is less than half of what a "normal" modern car weighs. Even "sports cars" these days are tremendously fat-assed. The afore-mentioned Honda S2000 tips the scales at 2800 pounds. Which is just about what my four-seat, big trunk, iron V8-powered 1967 Nova weighed.
In that Nova, with its 4-bbl, cammed-up, header-exhausted 350 engine running too hot one July day in Central Florida, I turned a 16-second quarter mile at the local track. Trap speed was an atrocious 83 mph.
Theoretically, a VS Speedster with 75 horsepower, driven by a relatively svelt person, could have beaten me that day.
A Speedster with 100 horses in a usable part of the rpm range could probably have beaten my Nova any day. That amount of power (torque, really) would get you into the mid 14s.
That's not Corvette territory, but it would put you in the company of a Subaru WRX or an S2000. It would beat a typical Acura RSX or a Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder by many car lengths.
You don't need modern muscle car power to make these cars go fast.
bluespeedster,
I bought a used 2006 vs with a good running 1600 cc mexicrate engine with only 650 miles on it two years ago and joined SOC. After two pumpkin runs and one time at Carlisle I wanted more power-I put about 5000 miles on the car.
I picked everyone's brains on the site and finally decided on 1915cc with a mild cam because I wanted low end torque and don't like high rpms. This past winter I dropped the engine out and took it to V dub shop in Pennsylvania where they made the mods. The only problem was the 34 single barrel Empi Carbs. The guys on the site talked me in to dual weber 40s and they were a pain to adjust(lack of experience) but once I got them dialed in I was very satisfied. I've taken two of my gear head friends in the car and they were both impressed with the torque. I'm a stickler for authenticity (built 3 national prize winners for AACA at Hershey) so the engine looks stock.
I gained a ton of knowledge from this modification and highly recommend Carlisle.
Joel
bluespeedster...
I bought my 'secondary market' VS last year and lucked out with a 2110cc, 90.5x82 that because of the available torque is a pleasure to tool around town in...but merging into fast moving highway traffic is no sweat thrill 'cause that engine accelerates like a scalded dog!
The bigger the motor, the more fun. Any thing over 2 liters...
....also consider that the larger the cc'c the more heat is produced which needs to be addressed with a fan oil cooler etc.
I recommend 2.3 liters.....No oil cooler required. :-)
Good one dave!
Suby is the future. No contest.
Purists may argue that but steel belted radials replaced Maypops, and Suby will replace aircooled-----------------------------------someday.
What the hell's a "Maypop?
(I get the Suby part...)
Maypop= Tube type tires of the pre '60s..... As in 2ply baldies.....
Hmmmmmmmmmm...............
Must be a "Southern thang"......
Suby is the future. No contest.
Probably, but not for me.
Damn the torpedoes, Stan, full speed ahead!
Suby is the future. No contest.
While you're probably right, I have to agree (at least right now) with Stan; it'll pass me by as well. Al
Suby is the future. No contest.
Probably, but not for me.
Well, I do have a Suby engine in my car...
My Impreza, that is.
In my wife's Outback, too. A 2.5 NA (non-turbo), and the lady who cuts her hair has an Outback with the flat six. Amazing power plants.
I agree with the exalted ruler of Stanistan on this. My day-dream will always be a 911-powered Speedster. Sound of 911 engine revving with sport exhaust, there is no substitute for me!
Of the Porsches I've owned, my hands-down favorite engine sound came from my blue-printed 2.2 911S with velocity-stacked triple-throat Webers and sport exhaust.
Maypop= Tube type tires of the pre '60s..... As in 2ply baldies.....