Synthetic Oil

I have been testing various brands of Fossil Based Oil in my Speedster. Ambient Temperature, Humidity, and Tune up have been observed in an attempt to generate an "Apple for Apple" test. While attending a National Race, I had a conversation with a Petroleum Engineer with Red Line Oil. He suggested that I contact one of their Chemists and provided me with an phone number.

At this time I'm testing Kendal GT-1 Oil and placed a call. The Chemist indicated that Red Line Oil has a formula that allows their oil to "Change Viscosity". I mentioned that I have never heard of a "Oil" that would enlarge or increase its mass when exposed to heat-only decrease its mass and "Thin" its viscosity.

He indicated that for instance their 10-40 or 20-50 has the viscosity of a 10W or 20W for "Cold Start" and at "Operating Temp" will have the viscosity of a 40W or 50W determining which oil you selected.

He suggested not to use a "Racing Grade" oil for the speedster but stay with one of their multi-viscosity synthetic oils determing the climate/ambinet temperature you were located.

The Kendal is parallel or slightly better then Castrol but has proven better than Penns & Valvoline.

Once my test is completed with the Kendal, I've purchase Red Line Oil Synthetic for the next test (20-50W).

If you would like to ask questions, this is Red Line Oils Tech Line Toll Free Number - 800-624-7958.

Jack Blake

Jack, I don't believe that oil (the fossil component) behaves in a manner which is counterintuitive to what we would reasonably expect as its temperature rises. Modern oils seem to contain many chemical compositions which include something which has a generic name of viscosity modifier. Others who are better read on the subject can correct me, but I understand that the esters in the oil form longer, more complex chains of molecules as the temperature increases, effectively making the oil flow as thought it was thicker.

John,
If I may say so, that was a mouth full.......
I had to read your thread over a few times to fully grasp
what you were saying...still not really sure I do understand it but
I have interest cause I am planning the switch to synthetic soon...
I will try to keep up, please continue.........

Jack, I too am interested in your results. Just a thought? Jake did a synthetics study at his shop. I know he posted the results (or at least some of his findings) on this forum. I will look for them. What I recall as especially interesting was his findings in increased performance in certain brands... and these were different than the brands that held temps down better.

Jim

Vince, I think I already shot my wad. The whole concept of multi viscosity oil still amazes me and I did my best to recall what I had read in the past. That's why I was hoping that someone would jump in and add to my limited knowledge and give me a chance to forget the details once again ;-)
John H.

Vince: Do you cook? Seriously......think of the newer oils with their chemical additives as a sauce that you're simmering. As the temperature increases, the sauce gets thicker. The difference is that, when the temperature goes down on the sauce, it STAYS thick.

With the newer oils, and especially the synthetics or blend's (both "natural and synthetic), there are chemicals added to accomplish a lot of different things. Some fight against acidity build up (a by-product of getting heated petroleum distillates (unburned gasolene) that sneak by seals and rings and get into the oil), some fight against "viscosity breakdown" which is where I say an oil loses some of its' "slipperiness", and some of the newer ones can make an oil thicker when hot, and then thin it out when cold.

As John mentioned, these are chemicals which are not necessarily petroleum in nature, but can enhance petroleum characteristics. In the case of viscosity enhancers, they are chemicals that, when heated, the molecules bond together (like your sauce) to make the overall surrounding environment (the oil they're living in) thicken up. The interesting thing about them is that, when cooled, they release their bond with their surrounding molecules and they all float free again, making the environment thinner.

Pretty cool, huh?

The hard part about all this, is that you have to figure out what the application (in our case, a heated oil delivery system) is expecting to see (i.e: what it was designed for) and try to either mimic that environment, or to enhance that environment to accomplish a specific (set of) goal(s).. For a VW engine, there are two things to accomplish: 1. lubricate the bearings (make them "float" on a film of oil). 2. cool the engine internals (not necessarily the heads - that's done with air flow over the heads).

Oil viscosity, or slipperiness, is key to #1. As an oil heats up, it generally thins out and the film of oil holding bearing surfaces apart becomes thinner, allowing the bearings to rub together, ever so slightly, but rubbing is wearing and not good. The newer additives actually get thicker as they heat up while the real oil might thin, so, working together they can maintain a set thickness overall (in other words, a 30 weight "oil" would maintain 30 wt. at any temp within a range).

Also key to #1 is something to fight acidity, since that can shorten the molecule chains (in three dimensions) mentioned by John, or make the molecules thinner, either way effectively taking the slipperiness out of the oil and/or making it thinner.

Heat transfer of the oil medium is key to #2, since the ability for the "oil" to capture heat from the engine internals and release it in the oil cooler is life-and-death to an air cooled engine. I've recently read that many of the newer synthetic "oils" contain additives that actually enhance their ability to absorb and release heat, making them better to use in air cooled engines. This has become very predictable for the "oil" chemists. Jack has been studying these "oils" and has been reporting results on this forum - pretty interesting stuff so far.

That's it in this nutshell, and pretty interesting stuff. If you're contemplating switching to synthetics, keep watching Jack's inputs and do some internet info searching on synthetic oils.

"an informed consumer is a good customer"

hope this helps, gn

When I first got my car, about 8 years ago, I initially used Kendall GT1 20-50w. When the engine had about 5,000 miles on it I tried a test with Redline 20-50w. I found no improvement in performance or cooler runnning temperature, but the redline did make a slight oil leak a little worse, and it cost nearly twice as much as Kendall. So I put the Kendall back in at the next oil change. Recently, after reading Jake's test results on synthetic oils, I did another test with Valveline full synthetic, this is the oil that reduced temperatures by 10 to 15 degrees according to Jake's findings. Well, my engine ran very noticeably hotter with this product. With about 200 miles on this oil, I drained it, tossed the filter and put Kendall back in. I drove to Knotts in April with Kendall in the engine, at high rates of speed in both directions, ambient temps reached 90 degrees+, no overheating problem. Your results may vary. Good Luck. Have fun testing oil, I did.

Joel, our experience with synthetics are almost identical except I did notice a slight cooling effect with the Mobil. But the seepage was annoying at best. I now run 20/50 with great results in the summer. Not a drop of oil leaks from my case and oil lines now days.

Looking forward to seeing again you next spring.

Gordon,
I'm sicilian, I only know Extra virgin olive oil, I keep plenty around the house, I cook everything in it along with a lot of garlic, If I thought The speedster would run better/faster with the olive oil
I'd put it in immediatly....
My speedster runs cool all day, no matter how fast or outside temp.
I even asked Kirk why it runs so cool and my concern about what
would happen when he rebuilt it....He wasn't surprised at all, and
said the rebuild wouldn't change the temp, and it hasen't....
My guage only shows low to high temp, I can't get it past 1/4 up
the guage....AND, I don't leak or burn a drop of the precious stuff..
but I do want to change to synthetic, so I will be interested in the
results of any testing being done and posted on this site....

Vince, I wonder where your sending unit is located. I originally had mine in the bottom of the 1 1/2 quart sump. In this location my guage showed readings in the 1/4 to 1/3 range, even though the external oil cooling fan would be on (it comes on at 180 degrees). It would be interesting to run one of those dip stick thermometers in your car to see what the actual temperature is.
Ron

Vince: Someday, after my wife and I eat our way across Tuscany, we also want to eat our way across Sicilly......but I digress.....

I wrote a long account of trying out Synthetics on my dad's fleet of school busses years ago, but to condense to a thumbnail;

We had been running Kendall straight 30 wt. year round. Each of our Busses put on around 60K miles each year, with oil changes every 12K miles and filter changes every 2K miles. We used external, Frantz toilet paper filters (they're really good) and checked the oil monthly for viscosity breakdown (you could actually feel it when it got thinner) and for acid content. All of our busses were GMC's with 350 V-8's.

When we switched to Castrol Synthetics (10W-40) we expected to get more mileage between changes - that's all we wanted.

ALL of the busses (we were running 16) started to develop seepage leaks - not BIG ones, just seepage from several places. We also found that the oil went acidic more quickly and to a higher percentage so we found we could only get, maybe, 10K between changes. All of them started easier if they had been sitting in sub-20 degree weather for several hours (typical for going to a basketball game at night).

We went back to Kendall straight 30 wt. and ALL of the leaks disappeared. I wanted to try another synthetic, but my dad decreed "to hell with this messing with my busses - stick with Kendall, it's good stuff!" so that ended it.

I've played with synthetics over the years (never with aircooleds) but still come back to Kendall straight grade - I'm running Kendall straight 30 wt. in my 2110 right now. I tried 50 wt., but was worried about super-high oil pressure when cold, so I went down to 30 wt.

Still, I'm intrigued with the expirements with different synthetics and will continue to watch them and may even try one later on. But then I remember my Dad's words: "Kendall is good stuff - stick with it!"

P.S. I wonder about the temp sending unit you and Ron are using. I have two, both VDO's. One shows mid-scale on the gauge when warm, the other one gets the gauge up maybe three needle-widths. Best thing I did was get one of those dip-stick thermometers so I know what the heck's going on.

I did get a dip stick thermo. Works great.
Ron

not to step on any toes but i don't believe any of it (the synthetic
hype). the reason you change oil is to remove dirty "suspended" oil
from your engine, not due to "breakdown". oil can then be cleaned
and reused (recycled) and it still has the same Viscosity. this didn't
change due to use or time. yes synthetics have a larger
"operating temp. range", flow easier when cold and still retain
their protective properties into higher temp. ranges. But if
your average piston engine doesn't reach those temps its a waste
of money, kinda like a 120 mph speedo on a pinto. i feel its greatest
advantage is the ability to flow at sub zero temps.
remember, a 50wt oil, synthetic or petro based protects/lubricates
exactly the same at average operating temps. no better/worse.
when i see oil commercials burning/boiling off oil with a blow
torch=who cares, its a load of bunk.
having said all that; my friend and i put slick 50 in his 5.0
mustang and i witnessed a 10 degree drop in average temp=go figure

Bruce, the reasons for changing petro oils are to remove any residual acids (from blowby and moisture condensation), and replenish with oil that has not had hydrocarbon chains broken down (thinning). A good filtration system captures most contaminant particles.

Synthetics are much better than petros; why do you think Porsche and Mercedes have been delivering new cars for years with synthetics? From my pesrsonal experience with street and racing air-cooled engines, I'll stick with synthetics...

I noticed that new Porsche cars, using synthetic, had very long oil change periods. I think I've heard that you can go as long as 15,000 miles between oil changes. This makes the cost of synthetics like Mobil 1 worthwhile, but to use something like Mobil 1 and change the oil every 3,000 miles seems like a waste.
Ron

George makes some good points.

Ron:

You could go with a synthetic, like Mobile 1, and change just your FILTER at an interval you're comfortable with. On our school busses, we changed filters every 2000 miles, but only changed the oil every 12K - 16K. That way it started to look economical. I think I would still change the speedster oil just before putting it away for the winter, so it might never see more than 5-6K miles between changes.

Alan Merklin: On your 18 wheelers, do they run high capacity oil sump systems? And, if so, how often do they change oil and/or filters? Just curious, as I know some owner/operators running big Cat diesels with 30 - 50 qt. or larger sump/systems and they regularly check for acidity build-up and thinning (most decent truck stops can check for this while you wait) but both typically run 50K or more between oil changes. Of course, they have some amazing filtering systems, too.

Dip stick thermometer?????
where do I get one of these handy dandy things, and how much can I expect to pay for one....I actually need 2, I want one for the ghia..
Is it just a guage at the end of a dip stick or what...

Vince, I got mine off e-bay, $50.00. It is essentially a dipstick with a 300 degree thermometer on the top, so you can pop the hood and read it any time without removing it. I've searched through my receipts, but I can't find the name or number. Do a e-bay, and internet search on "thermometer dipstick. By the way they are all different, porsche 356 is not the same as volkswagen....so if you have a type 1 or 4, you need to specify exactly which VW engine you have.


Gclarke "The vacaville Guy"

Vince:

Go to:

www.mainelycustombydesign.com/enginecomponents.htm#dipstick

Dave has them for $49.95 plus shipping and you'll have it in less than a week. You might also check out his wooden Porsche shift knobs and a bunch of other Porsche related stuff - all very high quality and the prices are usually really good.

Get the 616-070-002 for a pre-"A" Porsche/VW Type 1

A bunch of us have gotten these and I've never heard a complaint. We use them to calibrate the electric gauge on the dash (I used a parmanent marker on mine - real high tech) and then just leave it in there as a dip-stick.

Gordon
One of the Speedstah Guys from Rhode Island

Thank you Gary and Gordon,
I just ordered 2 of them, one for my speedster and one for my ghia..
I feel better already....

They're pretty neat.......the only drawbacks are that they typically fit loosely into the dip-stick tube, so most of us simply put a piece of shrink-tube around the top of the shaft, close to the gauge, to make it fit better (Alan Merklin's idea).

Mine was too tight for shrink tube, but still too loose for the dip-stick tube, so I put a thin film of clear silicon caulk around the gauge shaft, let it set overnight and it's fine.

The other drawback is that the numbers on the dial are really small, especially if your eyes are over 45, but you can always pull it out to read it!

gn

About two years ago I was looking through the 356 Registry magazine and saw the dip stick oil temp. guages. When I called to order one I was told the VW units were not ready for sale yet. So I pre ordered one and 3 months later I recieved the piece, which I did a product review on for this site. I noticed that it fit a little too loose so I suggested shrink tubing which I tried for a while, but was not happy with the fact that oil would get under the tubing and it would start to slip. Recently I put a bead of JB Weld about 1/8 in. wide, and about 1/16 in. high down the part of the shaft that is right under the guage head. This seems to work better so far, but I'll keep you posted.

Eddie

Sounds good - think I'll try that!

Thanks, Eddie!

Steven O'Brien (356fan) lent me his to try in my car. He told me to run the car at about 65 mph for at least 20 minutes and then check the temperature. I'll see if I can do that tomorrow; I'm curious as to how my engine is running.

Got my dip stick thermo's in the mail today.....
so what is suppose to be the correct temp....

Vince:

That's a good question and I'll bet you can get a lot of different answers.

VW engines were designed with slightly higher hot running temperatures expected. Still, it's really nice to keep them below 220 F. Some of the racers (356 engines) tend to run around 230 F when racing, but they're whaling the hell out of their engines, too.

Before I installed my external Oil cooler, and with a 1971 big doghouse cooler and all German engine tins, around town I would run 205 - 210. If I got out on a turnpike and ran it hard, it would run up to 215 - 220. Remember, I'm at Sea Level, so it runs just a bit cooler here. If it was really hot outside, like over 80 F then the oil temp would start to creep up over 220 making me nervous.

Hope this helps.

BTW: The new, external, fan powered cooler keeps everything under 205 now, no matter what.

Gordon

Vince, anything from 180 to 200 is normal. Of course, this depends upon what you're doing. I found that cruising on the highway at speeds over 75 mph, on a fairly hot day, caused the temperature guage to to from its normal 180-190 to 200-210. Once I slowed down to around 70 mph the temperature guage went back to 180/190 (this is using the dip-stick temperature gauge). Interestingly, switching from dino (Kendal 20/50) to Royal Purple synthetic (20/50) did not result in any change in running temperature. If there was a change it was too small to notice.
Ron

thanks guys

Theres a great article about synthetic oils on vw trends magazine of april 2003... I started using mobil 1 synthetic and seems better that before to me, no increase in leakage... I will be testing the temperature shortly - cheers - JJ

Years ago Consumers Report tested different brands of oil in a fleet of New York taxi cabs. After 70,000 miles (I think) they had the motors taken apart and examined for wear, etc. Turns out it didn't seem to matter what brand of oil they used, and this included synthetic. Wear seemed to be the same. So, if we're using synthetic to decrease wear, we're probably wasting our money. If synthetic oil lowers operating temperatures, that's a different story.
Ron

These are my 2 cents worth: JJ & myself went out on a ride today on both cars. We decided to measure the temperature of our engine oil. On the way to our destination we put Steve O'Brien's thermometer in my car's engine and on our way back we did the same to his car. The trip was at interstate speeds (65 mph give or take) for close to 20 minutes each way. We are both running 1776 cc engines; his is a rebuilt German unit from Mofoco with dual Kadrons (jetted, adjusted and drilled for connection to vacuum advance distributor by AJ Sims), a vacuum advance Bosch distributor(as sold by AJ Sims) and (we believe a modified cam; don't have the specs on it since the paperwork for the motor, which was bought around '95 or '96 was lost). His exhaust system is a Monza with the 4 tailpipes. JJ's engine oil of choice is Mobil 1 synthetic (multigrade 0 - 40W).

My engine is a new Mexican unit with dual Kadrons and stock everything except for the larger cylinders and pistons and it has a VW of Mexico header exhaust with two large tailpipes. It has a Bosch 009 distributor. I'm using Valvoline 40 weight regular oil. Both our engines have similar mileage (around 400 miles) and are equipped with the same type of fan shrouds (old 36 HP style set up for doghouse oil coolers) and both have Bosch alternators. My engine is equipped with a 356 generator/fan pulley (smaller diameter). JJ's is equipped with a stock VW alternator/fan pulley. These are our findings:

My engine's temp after the run was 220 degrees; his was 210 degrees. Could it be the engine oil or his distributor? (AJ Sims says that when using vacuum advance distributors the cars run 20% cooler). It's also interesting to note that my engine is helped in the cooling department by the smaller 356 pulley. JJ is planning to install one of those in his car to help out in cooling. Could it be the oil??? Thanks!

For some opinions on what oil to use, read through these posts on the Shoptalk aircooled VW forum. Some interesting reading.

www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=72838&highlight=royal+purple+oil

Ron