Hello dear friends!
I
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Hello dear friends!
I
I
I just picked up "The 356 Porsche...A restorer's guide to authenticity" from Amazon.com. I had the exact same questions, plus a few more. If you are looking to build a "replica", this book might be a good investment.
My understanding is that the tail lights changed from bee hives to the newer style in the middle of 1957. That why you here people sometimes refer to the a car as an early or late 57. They made several other little changes at the same time, but you will also find some authentic versions that don't show some of these changes. Most people will agree that Porsche during this changeover was using up whatever they still had in the parts bins....this is what adds some confusion to the change.
T1 vs T2 answer someone like george would be better at answering.
T1 vs T2 answer someone like george would be better at answering.
The above mentioned book goes a long way to explaining the changes. I've read it a number of times and continually have to refer to it when questions arise. In replicar construction it becomes almost humorous when somebody will tell you that your car has this or that feature wrong. I laugh and say it is a replica, not the real deal!
Bruce
Bruce
Guessing,
I thought 55 was beehive with smaller cluster on dash.
56 teardrops with three gauges same size.
Do you mean T1 VW(type 1 bug, ghia) style engine versus T2 (type 2 buses)? Or is there a porsche T1 & T2? because I don't know.
Edumicate me two pleese
I thought 55 was beehive with smaller cluster on dash.
56 teardrops with three gauges same size.
Do you mean T1 VW(type 1 bug, ghia) style engine versus T2 (type 2 buses)? Or is there a porsche T1 & T2? because I don't know.
Edumicate me two pleese
Bjorn,
T-1 and T-2 refer to the model type for the 356A. T-1 went from '56 to mid '57, and T-2 was from mid '57 to '59. So, in theory a '56 T-1 should have the beehive taillights.
-mike
T-1 and T-2 refer to the model type for the 356A. T-1 went from '56 to mid '57, and T-2 was from mid '57 to '59. So, in theory a '56 T-1 should have the beehive taillights.
-mike
Steve is the closest to what I think I understand from the research I have done lately. Steve says he doesn't have the definitive answer. Neither do I. I think we are probably close in what we think... having researched for our current cars under construction.
T-1 and T-2 stand for Technical Programs 1 and 2.
In March 57 there were a series of changes to the 356. This car was still technically a T-1. It took time for all the changes to find their way onto the production line.
In September 57 there was a second series of changes to the 356. These changes were brought on by Technical Program 2. So this is the true dating of T-2.
Back to Steve's note. Evidently one of the changes instituted after March was the advent of the tear drop lens. But in typical Porsche fashion they emptied the production line with the Beehives that were on hand.(My guess) So, here is the best I can figure reading almost everything I can get my hands on:
In general most post March/April cars received Tear-drops. For sure, all post Sept cars did. Thus the general assumption that a Beehive 57 is an early 57. But there are a few that slipped through the cracks and may be mid 57s.
Clear as mud, right? That's how it reads too. In a simple desktop book, Brett Johnson's Pictorial Guide, it takes nearly 20 pages to describe the changes that went into the 56-57 cars. There are changes in mechanics, body structure (doors) and appearance.
Ok, that's my wag at it. I am not an expert, for sure.
GB or Dale, John L., Bill or John Steele, or Henry may have the definitive answer. Maybe I'll hit Henry up when I go up next month.
T-1 and T-2 stand for Technical Programs 1 and 2.
In March 57 there were a series of changes to the 356. This car was still technically a T-1. It took time for all the changes to find their way onto the production line.
In September 57 there was a second series of changes to the 356. These changes were brought on by Technical Program 2. So this is the true dating of T-2.
Back to Steve's note. Evidently one of the changes instituted after March was the advent of the tear drop lens. But in typical Porsche fashion they emptied the production line with the Beehives that were on hand.(My guess) So, here is the best I can figure reading almost everything I can get my hands on:
In general most post March/April cars received Tear-drops. For sure, all post Sept cars did. Thus the general assumption that a Beehive 57 is an early 57. But there are a few that slipped through the cracks and may be mid 57s.
Clear as mud, right? That's how it reads too. In a simple desktop book, Brett Johnson's Pictorial Guide, it takes nearly 20 pages to describe the changes that went into the 56-57 cars. There are changes in mechanics, body structure (doors) and appearance.
Ok, that's my wag at it. I am not an expert, for sure.
GB or Dale, John L., Bill or John Steele, or Henry may have the definitive answer. Maybe I'll hit Henry up when I go up next month.
Thank you for your good answears!!!
What about the meters? Was it only early -55 that had the two big and one small in the middle? Anyone who knows?
What about the meters? Was it only early -55 that had the two big and one small in the middle? Anyone who knows?
Sorry, this is the photo of the meters i was talking about...
Th 56 (early 57 Lol) had that set up too. Except for the Carerra GS and GTs, They had a 3 guage cluster.
This is a smart group! The Type 1 cars began in 1956 (they were the first 356-A's). A curved windshield replaced the "bent" style on the coupe and cabriolet. Also, 4.5 x 15" wheels replaced the 3.25 x 16" wheels the Pre-A's had.
In mid-1957 the Type 2 body change came. Lots of little things morphed like exterior door handles and the position of the interior door striker plate, which was now held in place by three screws (T-1's used five).
Before the T-2 changeover teardrop taillights replaced beehives and the American-bound cars got tubular overrider bars on the bumpers (like Dale Bate's car).
Gauges? The T-1 cars had the speedometer on the left and the multi-gauge on the right (tach in the middle). The T-2 cars moved the speedo to the right, multi to the left (tach still middle), which is where the gauges remain today even on the new 997's.
Very early (Pre-A, 1955 and earlier) Speedsters had two large gauges and one small one between them.
And, naturally, none of this is written in stone - meaning Porsche pretty much did whatever they wanted with whatever parts were on-hand as the cars were built. That's why there is no "definitive" answer to these questions.
I have way too many braincells occupied with this stuff.
In mid-1957 the Type 2 body change came. Lots of little things morphed like exterior door handles and the position of the interior door striker plate, which was now held in place by three screws (T-1's used five).
Before the T-2 changeover teardrop taillights replaced beehives and the American-bound cars got tubular overrider bars on the bumpers (like Dale Bate's car).
Gauges? The T-1 cars had the speedometer on the left and the multi-gauge on the right (tach in the middle). The T-2 cars moved the speedo to the right, multi to the left (tach still middle), which is where the gauges remain today even on the new 997's.
Very early (Pre-A, 1955 and earlier) Speedsters had two large gauges and one small one between them.
And, naturally, none of this is written in stone - meaning Porsche pretty much did whatever they wanted with whatever parts were on-hand as the cars were built. That's why there is no "definitive" answer to these questions.
I have way too many braincells occupied with this stuff.
Is there any of You that drives with 16" wheels on you Speedsters, or is it only 15"??
Most use 15" as those are more readily available in the market.
John,
Thanks for that info!
Jim
Thanks for that info!
Jim
Wow!,
I had to take a pee break while reading all that killer info!
I had to take a pee break while reading all that killer info!
Bjorn,
I think some of the pre-A wheels were 16". I will try and find a picture of a former member's Intermeccanica that had these wheels mounted with Drum-Skinz from Fiber-Steel. (Found a copy of the pic, see below.)
Below are the 16" wheels in Silver paint and Polished faux DrumSkinz underneath. I think Dale Bates said he (the owner: Rich) used spacers to get them out into the well as they needed offset. Note the faux axle nut/etc. set into the Drum-Skinz.
I considered doing this with a more 'outlaw' looking Intermeccanica. I think the wheels are hard to source outside of a couple of builders. I think the slots, or holes in the Pre-As are more rounded, making them easy to spot. And, I think the originals are narrow (stock)in width. When I looked into it, the wheel would need to be wider, requiring another 1" to 2" in width and some different offset, depending on what tires you want to run in a stock replica fender well & the brakes/transaxle set up. I think it looks pretty cool, whether it's a retro Pre-A look you are after, or an Outlaw look with 45 Profile tires.
FWIW Info Dept. There is a set of Rudge Wheels for sale at the Pelican Parts Site (356 Forum) The owner was fishing to see what others thought they were worth. The last time I looked there was talk of $2,000 per wheel and that was just chatter. They will probably go for much more than that. (Farrrrr out of my league, but fun to read about.)
I think some of the pre-A wheels were 16". I will try and find a picture of a former member's Intermeccanica that had these wheels mounted with Drum-Skinz from Fiber-Steel. (Found a copy of the pic, see below.)
Below are the 16" wheels in Silver paint and Polished faux DrumSkinz underneath. I think Dale Bates said he (the owner: Rich) used spacers to get them out into the well as they needed offset. Note the faux axle nut/etc. set into the Drum-Skinz.
I considered doing this with a more 'outlaw' looking Intermeccanica. I think the wheels are hard to source outside of a couple of builders. I think the slots, or holes in the Pre-As are more rounded, making them easy to spot. And, I think the originals are narrow (stock)in width. When I looked into it, the wheel would need to be wider, requiring another 1" to 2" in width and some different offset, depending on what tires you want to run in a stock replica fender well & the brakes/transaxle set up. I think it looks pretty cool, whether it's a retro Pre-A look you are after, or an Outlaw look with 45 Profile tires.
FWIW Info Dept. There is a set of Rudge Wheels for sale at the Pelican Parts Site (356 Forum) The owner was fishing to see what others thought they were worth. The last time I looked there was talk of $2,000 per wheel and that was just chatter. They will probably go for much more than that. (Farrrrr out of my league, but fun to read about.)
Patrick,
I had to drink a Gatorade just to type my part of it! Then I took a piss break and read the rest of the posts. ;-) Jim
I had to drink a Gatorade just to type my part of it! Then I took a piss break and read the rest of the posts. ;-) Jim
He he, Thank you again!
As a last resort, check out this site and look at all of the pics of other folks restored 356's:
www.356registry.org/Members/index.html
There is a pretty decent array of years and body sylles to poke through and the details are pretty plain.
Luck,
TC
www.356registry.org/Members/index.html
There is a pretty decent array of years and body sylles to poke through and the details are pretty plain.
Luck,
TC
And nobody even mentioned shine-up shine-down license plate lights.
but for those who want to know enter either phrase (shine up or shine down) in the site search.
Also, I'd be willing to bet that several Type I's became Type II's
license plate lights and teardrop headlights the first time they went to the body shop for rear end repairs. So that may account for the mixture with Type 1 stuff that's less observable or harder or more expensive to change(like gauges).
Also, there are U.S. import vs. European model differences. So it may be best to merely "have it your way".
but for those who want to know enter either phrase (shine up or shine down) in the site search.
Also, I'd be willing to bet that several Type I's became Type II's
license plate lights and teardrop headlights the first time they went to the body shop for rear end repairs. So that may account for the mixture with Type 1 stuff that's less observable or harder or more expensive to change(like gauges).
Also, there are U.S. import vs. European model differences. So it may be best to merely "have it your way".
Did I say teardrop headlights? I meant to say, tailights.
Hi Bjorn,
I've all the replies to your post and I agree with some fellow listers, you should buy the Restorer's Guide ..., from Dr. Brett Johnson. You'll find everything there.
From all the info I found here, I think there's one which isn't correct; I'm talking about the gauges.
- from '52 to '55 - Pre-A's had 2 large guages (as the ones you show on the photo), but in the center there were 3 small lights on a vertical position, not a small guage; the odometer on the left, the rev counter on the right;
- from '55 to '57 - T1's had 3 large guages, all with the same size; odometer on the left, rev on the center and multi-function on the right;
- from late '57 to '58 (the regular Speedsters ended in '58; it was replaced with the Convertible D, even though I think there were a few Speedster Carreras in '59) - I'm almost sure T2's had initially the same display of guages and the odometer changed position to the right in '58.
Still, check this info with the good doctor's book. I don't have it with me right now.
Here is attached how a '58 should look like ... it's mine ... hehehe. The guage display has a slight incorrection, since there shouldn't be any small light in there and there's one to the right of the rev counter, but I needed it as break light.
Hope this helps. Best regards.
Miguel Caldeira Proenca
Lisboa - Portugal
m.caldeira.proenca@mail.telepac.pt
I've all the replies to your post and I agree with some fellow listers, you should buy the Restorer's Guide ..., from Dr. Brett Johnson. You'll find everything there.
From all the info I found here, I think there's one which isn't correct; I'm talking about the gauges.
- from '52 to '55 - Pre-A's had 2 large guages (as the ones you show on the photo), but in the center there were 3 small lights on a vertical position, not a small guage; the odometer on the left, the rev counter on the right;
- from '55 to '57 - T1's had 3 large guages, all with the same size; odometer on the left, rev on the center and multi-function on the right;
- from late '57 to '58 (the regular Speedsters ended in '58; it was replaced with the Convertible D, even though I think there were a few Speedster Carreras in '59) - I'm almost sure T2's had initially the same display of guages and the odometer changed position to the right in '58.
Still, check this info with the good doctor's book. I don't have it with me right now.
Here is attached how a '58 should look like ... it's mine ... hehehe. The guage display has a slight incorrection, since there shouldn't be any small light in there and there's one to the right of the rev counter, but I needed it as break light.
Hope this helps. Best regards.
Miguel Caldeira Proenca
Lisboa - Portugal
m.caldeira.proenca@mail.telepac.pt
Attachments
Images (1)
