The Creation of my MassIVe engine, behind the scenes with Jake Raby

Some of you know that Jake Raby is building a Type IV engine to go into my VS. He has received my deposit and we are in business!

When I started working with Jake on this project I saw examples of the kind of updates he provides to owners and thought that these would be of interest to SOC members. I would have loved such info when I was searching for an engine builder myself. Very detailed progress reports, some with specs and pictures as well as rationaile for the components going into a build. Basically all I did was tell Jake what I was looking for and trusted him to come up with the best combination for my engine. I'll share what ends up being used in my particular engine and why.

He, after a little prodding, aggreed to let me post the periodic updates that I receive here on the SOC site. Maybe this will be beneficial to fellow members who are thinking of upgrading their own powerplants. I have to admit that Jake gave me a 50% discount off the price of my engine for this "publicity" --yeah--right--I only wish!! Anyway, I would have liked this kind info myself as I went along on my own quest for more power and reliability.

The plan is to drop the VS off to Jake on October 19, right after the Tail Of The Dragon event and pick it up with the new engine, rear discs replacing the drums and some other goodies two weeks after I leave it.

So--it's 15 weeks and counting.

--On to Morrow Bay!!---Jack

Jack,
The majority of members here and on most sites have no idea what goes into the construction of a drive train package like yours. Maybe after we finish your project and post all the details from the initial configuration through the lab evaluation on the engine dyno and the field testing with my data logger installed in your car and the in car chassis dyno testing there will be a better understanding.

Lots of this info generally isn't posted by my Clients, or on my site.. There will still be some things that are not posted, but the majority of the details will be posted..

I have my first round of initial data almost ready to be emailed to Jack, so he can start posting some of it.

Rocky and I installed Jake's type IV's in two speedsters a few years back. We are witness to an excellent product design as well as customer support.
Jack... you have made an excellent choice. ~Alan

Thanks Alan--coming from you that is especially good to hear!
This is an exciting journey for sure.----Jack

I'm jealous, Jack. Maybe a few years down the rod when my present engine gets tired.

Jack (and Jake),
I for one am very interested in learning more about Type 4 construction. I think it's awesome you two have agreed to do this and it will enlighten many potential buyers and gearheads. I look forward to reading about the build and the process.

I've got my hands full right now learning about my 3.0L flat 6 with CIS on my 911. It really is a blast learning about all this stuff. The more I learn the more I realize I don't know squat! :)

Mickey- you wrote "The more I learn the more I realize I don't know squat!"...you could not have said it better. Wether you've got a degree in engineering, a feel for how things work, the street smarts of guys like Smokey Yunick, all the great camshaft guys, they all have a common denominator and you pretty much summed it up. We all have innovative ideas; some just pursue it to the Nth degree and beyond.

Thanks guys...
Back when this group was still on a email list, there were some good debates between myself and George Brown and others.. Lots of people learned a lot from that.

It has been that long since I shared this much detail, and Jack has been a great Client thus far, so I agreed to share more than usual with him and the group..

You'll see that bolting the Type 4 engine into a Speedster is MUCH simpler than most believe.. It all bolts straight in with the proper, complimentary components..
You'll see.
We are doing the full build of the engine, transaxle and all sub systems to include the DTM cooling system and exhaust in house as well as the installation, so this is an opportunity to see the full scope of what we do.

Jack's engine is designed for long distance hauls... It's based from a design that is almost a decade old and shares a lot with the engine in my personal 912E, that I have driven 155,000 miles since September of 2002.. Hardly any maintenance, good MPG and incredible drive-ability...

Torque is king and thats what we'll be capitalizing on...

May I ask what a bui;d like this costs? Email me.

Bill--Thanks for your question about the cost of the engine but I really can't say as far as the actual price, as everything hasn't been completely decided. Jake is still weighing certain choices in specs and components. I'll hear from him in a day or so with a summary of all the specs and will post exactly what will go into the engine as far as components. there are additional things that are being resolved too; he's doing the install (who better to choose for that?). Right after Tail Of The Dragon--I'm driving to Cleveland, GA to drop the car. The rear drums rear drums will be exchanged for discs so I can stop the beast,and installation of additional gauges to enjoy watching the performance in the cool-running department. After Dyno testing he will actually put at least 200 miles on the car to be certain it's as solid as possible so issues are resolved before I drive it back to Hot Springs two weeks later. I was impressed with that aspect of the installation as I never heard that offered before in any of my research, and the road testing after dyno testing is included in the price. That's a world of difference from a deal where the engine is shipped to a local builder for installation and road tested by the owner---this was something that impressed me.

So far, my feeling is that it will be worth every penny I spend and I am very careful with my dollars! (OK, read "tight"!)

Jake is happy to speak with anyone who is seriously considering one of his engines--I found him to be extremely easy to work with.

I just re-read my post and it looks like I'm being paid for an endorsement but nothing could be further from the truth. These are "Just the facts" and I would have liked this info myself a year ago when I started my quest for taking my Speedster to the next level.

--Jack

Thanks Jack..
The cost of a project like this varys so very greatly that even if Jack posted it here, it may be 50% different than someone else here that calls me looking for a similar engine.. I never build the same engine twice.

It'll take 80 hours of our lives to design and assemble this engine, CNC the cylnder heads, etc, etc.... 8 hours to build the DTM cooling system... 5 hours to build the exhaust system... another 8-15 hours to test fire it and evaluate the engine in the lab on the engine dyno.. Another 20-30 hours to install the engine and transaxle package and their sub systems... Then I'll put at least 200 miles on the car personally on my 853 mile round trip daily commute and top it all off with a chassis dyno session to prove what the package has the ground Do the math on that and then keep in mind that the going rate for a tune up today is 75.00/hr and thats simple component swapping work... We are designing and building and evaluating a complete drivetrain package..

No, thats not cheap and it never will be... I have been told by many of my Clients that I don't charge enough for the package and all of our development, effort and enthusiasm.. I was just told that yesterday...

The specs I am preparing for Jack now will illustrate some of what he is paying for.... To me money is not the driving force, as long as I have food on the table, Porsches in my stable and get to do the work I love everyday I could care less about "what it costs".

853 mile daily commute?!

Wow!

Damn keyboard!!

Should read 83 mile...

"...as long as I have food on the table, Porsches in my stable and get to do the work I love everyday I could care less about "what it costs".

So, Jake...you already have the Porsches in your stable. How about I send you a side of beef and a case of your favorite beverage. Will you build an engine for me? ;)

I am a little disappointed to see the commute is only 83 miles.

I was really impressed before.

Hey Jake, I'll see Terry's offer, and raise it with some Charleston Shrimp 'n' Grits, and a gift certificate to my favorite fine restaurant here. Can't beat that, can yah? :-)

....and I'll toss in a Pennsylvania local favortie ...
"slippery Pot pie"

I had a software crash last week while working on Jack's engine design.. I have had to load all the specs back in and haven't finished that yet, since it takes several hours to get back where I was..

I am working to get this done this week, so Jack can share the details..

Jack, please measure the rear tires on your car from the ground to the top of the tire, in inches and post it or email me.. I need it for design of the transaxle and it also impacts the engine design.

Jake--will send seperate email. Jack

jack, you can go to tirerack.com, find your tire and they have all the specs...

Thanks, Bob--I just measured and sent it to Jake. Jack

I finshed Jack's engine design a few days ago and got it all emailed to him a few minutes ago.. I'd suppose he'll be posting something soon.

I still have to finish the transaxle design, but will probably wait for a 3rd and 4th gear ratio selection until I get the engine through the lab and determine it's exact torque curve..

7/24/09

My Type IV won't be ready until late October but it's already in the design stage and I'll shar what I have so far. It all starts with design and all the input I provided Jake dealt with what I was looking for from this engine and how I planned to use it. I wrote Jake that my priorities were:

1. Reliability and longevity. I like long trips with total confidence that I won't break down-especially when driving with my wife on interstates. I want to drive to Morrow Bay and Carlisle again next year from Arkansas.
2.Performance--power to run with traffic on interstates and to embarass an occasional tenager in a Mustang or some riceburner. Ability to scoot away from danger. power to quickly enter freeways.
3. Uniqueness - I like taking my car to shows and have several trophies from events this year. I like introducing the public to these wonderful cars. I want an engne that looks different than a VW Bug engine and more like it will be, which it will as it will be build with a Porsche case.
4. Satisfaction -I am looking for value for my dollars and confidence that the engine will be "as advertised" with parts I will never see
but know they will be what is spec'd. Satisfactioin dealing with someone with trhe reputation Jake has built.

That was my total input and Jake took over from there---totally. He designed the engine to meet my priorities using computer programs made for designing engines. tThe model graphs should duplicate what is seen on the dyno with the finished engine.

I appreciate you and Jake sharing all of this. I find it very interesting.

Are you going with fuel injection, Jack? I'd certainly like to add that to mine, but it's not cheap. I seem to remember reading on Jake's site where he does all his new engines with FI.

Lane--no fuel injection ---just dual carbs. We are going with the latest EMPI 44 HPMX with 34 mm venturis which will be blueprinted by Art Thraen and modified by Jake. I understand that these will be as good or better than the Webbers were back when they were good. I will post a list of engine components later.

--Jack

7/24/09 (cont'd)

My engine will be an improvement over Jake's 912E which has run 155,000 miles in 8 years without any refreshing at all. The improvements include RAT LE 180-914 cylinder heads with plug relocation, 44X36mm valves based on new amc castings and chamber profiling by Len Hoffman rather that the OE914 2.0 heads. More than anything the cam and exhaust characteristics are modified from Jake's 912 engine. Instead of the earlier thiughts of a 140 hp engine, Jake opted for 130 hp with a bigger, flatter torque curve. I'll attach a design plot to show the curves in a seperate post.

I'm sure the chart won't be too readable but here are samples:

RPM Power at flywheel Torque at flywheel
2,500 47 hp 135 torque
3,500 99--- 149
4,500 123--- 143
5,500 129--- 123
6,500 131--- 125

Jake explained the rest of the chart but it's too far over my head to talk about --I can get any questions answered for anyone.

That's the design and I am very excited so far. The hp and torque curves put the power exactly where I want it plus the new tranny with taller 3rd and 4th gears will take good advantage of this hp / torque
combination.

---more later---Jack

It's SO wonderful of Jake to be so forthcoming with this information so far. I surprised that he isnt afraid that a competitor might not take "2,500 47 hp 135 torque" or "4,500 123---143" and just RUN with it for their own design . . .

He's been "designing" this thing for a month and this is all you got ? ! ? ! ? ! ? !


What's the down for a few figures, a promise, and a sack of hot air these days?







ForUm PrICk

The Forum Watchdog. Your first line of defense against just another "Jake Job."

So you know--I started talking with Jake late last May about this project and comitted to it June 8 with a completion date of late October.

Jake started designing this engine last Sunday night when he returned from some race thing he had been away for since the middle of last week.

Since the delivery date isn't until late October I actually am pleased that he's already working on the design. It hasn't been a month--more like 4 days.

TC, I'll give you a ride when I see you next spring at Morrow bay!


--Jack

My intention was to share this build with folks on our site by boiling the info down as I receive it from Jake. At this point I have four rather lenghty and detailed emails with charts, graphs
and much more. The site doesen't lend itself to showing the charts and graphs so rather than trying to work with these emails by posting piecemeal bits, I will forward them by email to those who want them and who email me off site and ask. This way I won't clog up this thread and only those who are interested need receive the data.

I will keep this thread going as the build proceeds with my own observations as a consumer.

My email address is hsbroker@aol.com

This should be a better approach. I just hope I don't get 200 requests!

----Jack

based on JR's comments above:
design and assemble: 80 hrs
build DTM: 8 hrs
build exhaust: 5 hrs
test run:10 hrs
install:25 hrs

total: 128 hrs

rate: 75$/hr

this adds up to $9,600.00, which, from what i see in the post, is just labour. (maybe this is parts too?)

the final engine output is:
RPM Power at flywheel Torque at flywheel
2,500 47 hp 135 torque
3,500 99--- 149
4,500 123--- 143
5,500 129--- 123
6,500 131--- 125

so, wheel power (rolling dyno, not an engine dyno) would be in the neighborhood of what, 30 (2500 rpm ) - 110 (6500 rpm)?

Is this accurate? I must be missing something.

The 75.00/ hour figure was for reference only... It was to help wake people up to what "simple" repair and service work goes for today at an hourly rate. This NOT what Jack will be charged for labor, I wish I could effectively charge that much for our labor- it doesn't happen.

Jack's engine will be evaluated in my engine dyno lab for flywheel output and the majority of it's tuning. Following the engine dyno evaluations and installation into the Speedster we'll then evaluate the entire vehicle with the new powerplant installed, using all it's subsystems on my chassis dyno.

I have provided Jack with digital projections of the engine's flywheel output as well as it's output at the rear wheels and have quantified that with a pair of actual evaluations that were recently carried out on my chassis dyno from vehicles with engines equipped with the same base design as Jacks. Jack can share this info if he wants.

When Jack asked me if he could post this data I was hoping the conversations and chatter that would follow would be of a technical nature, not so greatly focused on cost. The technical and design specs are my main focus. I hope that the thread can get back on a technical track, because otherwise its destined to be nothing more than a fire fight.

Now, I'd hate for drama to ruin Jack's fun with this.. He is VERY proud of the engine I am creating for him...(his enthusiasm is one reason why I accepted his project) Negative smart ass responses are going to take away the fun factor for him while I design and build this engine... Making snide remarks that are aimed at me can be done at some other time, don't make Jack pay for them.

Trust me, I can handle the heat and opposition.. Don't make Jack suffer..

Forum Prick: You sure as hell know how to select a screen name. Perhaps I'll make the trip with Jack next year. I'll even give you an autograph if you want.

OK--here's that graph of HP and Torque which I'll post because I said I would. I'll still be happy to email the rest of the specs, charts and graphs on request ---send me an email off site.

I'll still post progress reports and occasional photos and the last picture will be me with a SEG sitting in the completed car in 12 weeks!

--Jack

You realize, of course, that you'll have to go right back and do the Dragon a second time after Jake gets your new motor in.

Lane--that's a tempting idea! I'd better get used to it first though, otherwise I might have some of my Speedster parts put on the "Tree Of Shame"! My grandson still talks about that--it made a big impression on him---me too for that matter.

I see that graph didn't get posted so I'll just have to email it to anyone who asks for it.

Good to hear from you--see you in the Smokies in about 12
weeks!
---Jack

Jack-

About the graph- it doesn't show up....

Hi Stan--yes it didn't "take" I will email it to you now plus I'll try to get it into this post too.

I remember you saying that you want a torque peak in the 3,000 rpm range which puts you at the heeart of usable power---that's exactly what this graph will show. I'll email it to you now.

Kind regards---Jack

In the next couple of days I'll start a forum over on my community for Jack to share his experiences with the engine and so these graphs can be posted more easily... He can link the info here.

I have designed the majority of the engine's usable power from 2500-5,000 RPM.. The engine will have valve control to 7,000 RPM, but it'll never make power that high and wasn't designed to..