The Creation of my MassIVe engine, behind the scenes with Jake Raby

With all the 'experts' and 'traditional' knowledge and assumed 'right way' to do all things engine for replicars on this forum, my hat's off to the two of you for even posting a 'I'm gonna do it' thread let alone a progress report.

For those of us who no longer turn wrenches, posting an hourly rate for engine service is, as Jake intended, a good wake up call. It is also a reminder that replicar expenditures are not run of the mill (no pun intended) auto upkeep expenses.

I've been shopping for an engine for my V-dub recently and in emailing back and forth with numerous engine builders on that advertise on the Samba, they like Jake, like to tailor their engines when possible but most have what I would call a line of 'pot-boilers'; tried and true builds with no surprises, just good solid combos known to perform a certain way.

When I started my big engine build I wanted the investment to do everything Jack outlined plus address my big ego and extremely heavy right foot. When Jake got to the dyno stage on my build the performance numbers were terrific, but my big-dog attitude said, let's try again. (I believe Jake is still running that solid 180HP effortlessly in one of his cars nearly eight years later.) I wasn't as forthcoming as I should have been in the power department.

Having 'design time' in with the build time makes for a result that meets the buyers expectations. Having design time gives the guys building engines room to expand possibilities.

Henry at Intermeccanica has taken the mystery out of 911-powered replicars. He has also been open to non-AC V-dub motors, which happen to put down performance figures exceeding AC engines in stock configurations!This didn't happen overnight.

Entering into a contract to highly personalize a replicar or its engine requires a lot of paper time and head-sorting (not an engine head, between the ears head). Jack knew what he wanted and Jake is accommodating him rather than selling him on the merits of an 'out-of-the-box' 2260 w/40 webers and an Encle 110 cam.

Thanks for bringing us along for the ride. I'm now going back to lurk status.
Paul in Benicia

Paul--thank you for this post. BTW I am very aware of your own experience and all the more it shows what a class act you are!

What you wrote about designing before proceeding is what I was trying to explain but you did it a lot better than I did.

Believe me, I have learned that Jake is a "measure twice and cut once guy" and he's in the measure phase, as you put it so well.

As I said earlier , I explained what I wanted out of the engine and turned it totally over to Jake. I admit I have had thoughts about if I am already spending more on this engine that many complete cars are worth that I wondered about boosting this, increasing that and in general, gilding the lilly but I am happy letting Jake do his thing.

I should say smart letting Jake do his thing.

Thanks again for an intelligent post.----Jack

ps--stop lurking and keep sharing your thoughts here!

Folklore and common knowledge, coupled with a weird 1975 sense of what stuff "should" cost is holding back the ACVW world, and by extension our little twig on the family tree. There's a sense of being frozen in amber at work here. Reliable $1500 engines? Perhaps in the small-block Chevy world, but not in here.

$75/hr is about the starting point for what craftsmen in any trade charge.

Paul, Nice to see your input... That means a lot after our experiences together have gone full circle.

I do my best not to create "cookie cutter" engines, even though that means more work for us, longer back logs and less profit.. What it does go hand in hand with is fully satisfied purchasers.

I am shooting for extreme drive ability and smooth power delivery for Jack, thats way more important for his application than gross power output.

Today Jack's heads were put in line for their CNC work.... I also sent the masters away to have them ground onto the camshaft... So things are coming together!

Hello, all....

I, too, have gone off into "Lurker Status" for a whole bunch of reasons, but have been very much still involved in the car hobby, including supporting the #63 Porsche GT in an upcoming Rolex race (different sponsors, different cause, more time invested, same teams).

I also wholeheartedly support both Jack and Jake's "design first and then build what you design" approach. Not enough of that is going on these days. I must have spent close to 80 hours, spread over a couple of years as I had time here and there, designing my engine and then sourcing the parts I wanted for it. The end result was a pretty good engine and the only problems I've had with it was not doing a heat dissipation profile on it in the design phase, which necessitated adding an external cooler after it was assembled, and use of poorer-quality Asian parts (which I hope I've finally gotten beyond). High-quality parts can still be had for these engines, although they usually prove costly and many of us would rather go for the cheaper price-point and then bitch about poor quality later on than go for the "good stuff" right up front and never complain.

I've also gotten some interesting insight into current labor costs in our "hobby", so I thought I might share some of that in light of the "rule-of-thumb" of $75/hr for decent assembly labor:

Cost of one tube of Loctite 510 sealer for my intake manifolds: $30

Cost of three new Hydraulic hoses for my leaking oil cooler system: $150

Assembly Labor at George Nelson Engineering (the go-to place in New England to get your 356 engine worked on and done right): $90/hr

"Technician" labor rate at Herb Chambers Porsche/Audi near Boston: $125/hr or portion thereof (always rounded up).

"Mechanic" Labor rate at Millbury Motors Ford Dealer for K's Taurus: $95/hr

"Technician" labor rate, same dealer, for my Diesel truck: $125/hr

"Technician" labor rate at Lundgren Honda (the other car): $100/hr

Cost to field a Rolex Porsche GT for one weekend of racing (East Coast) and supported by TRG Motorsports: $120,000

Same race weekend, same car, if you support it yourself: $90,000

Cost for 15 minutes of sinus surgery on my schnoze: $2,750

So Stan's right: Too many of us are mired in 1957 thinking: Just because you drive a car that looks like something from 1957 doesn't mean it'll cost 1957 dollars to get it fixed. This is the new Millenia......Things cost a little more, now......

OK, time to find Paul and go lurking again.

bye...

Gordon--scarey labor rates and who knew what it costs to run with the Porsche racing crowd! I sold my last airplane 4 years ago and the hourly labor numbers you show are more than I paid for airplane maintenance---and it was just a Cutlass.

On the heads that Jake mentioned, here's a link to the exact head that Jake is using in my engine. Actually an improved Porsche 914 head. Scarey sophisticated I would say;

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/le180_914.htm

The castings are not old cleaned up ones but brand new castings. The part that impressed me the most was relocating the spark plug to where it makes a more complete burn plus using smaller diameter plugs
for longer life.

Take a look.----Jack

I guess it's best not to bitch at the $65 HR rate to work on my "big truck"
~ Alan

Look at the price of postage stamps in just the past few years... I am not that old, but I remember when they were like 13 cents... Now look at today.

Dedication and development costs and because too many people only consider price the amount of developers that are willing to put out the extra effort to create something thats not generic has diminished....

Jack, I am getting jealous. Will Jake take the 1915 in for trade on one of his engines?
I am very happy for you and I can see that the excitement is starting to really build for you.
I know that it will be like a little kid waiting for Christmas before this is all installed and driven.
Congratulations on an excellent choice of engine builder. All I have ever heard is "good words" about Jake.
And I also can't wait for my new/old engine to arrive so the bicycles will quit outrunning me here in Northern Occupied Mexico.
Keep the posts coming so I can read more about "my dream engine" maybe in the future.

Jerry--I am taking excellent care of your engine now residing in my Speedster! I will be doing the valves and changing the oil soon --before this year's "Tail Of The Dragon" gathering in the Somkie Mtn's.

The engine is running super-strong and never misses a beat. The gas mileage continues to improve too, as you will see when you get the engine log from when it was made. I have quirte a few parts for a Type I that I will ship as I leave Hot Springs for TN. Jake is going to use his wooden crate to ship your engine and tranny so it will arrive in perfect shape.

Jerry---we are still counting on your making the Morrow Bay event with us next Spring!!

I just returned from Scotland and expect that I will have an update from Jake to post this weekend. You are right that I am very excited about my Type IV in the works. Jake's Dad is still in the hospital
and Jake is spending a fair amount of time with that---as we all would do.

Take care my friend----Jack

Hola Mi Amigo Jack,

I am still in for Morrow Bay baring something unforseen poping up. It sounds like a lot of fun and I will get to fianlly put a face to all of the names I see on the emails. From some of the pictures I have seen they look like an escaped "Old Folks Home" on the road. I say that lovenly as I will hit the old folks mark this year also. (65) so I can identify with that rational

I am sure the engine is still on track and that Jake has qualified people to run his shop in his absence as it sounds like he is on the road quite a bit promoting the racing engine side of his business.

Adeus Amigo

My Dad is in between Hospitals now, so I am trying to get caught up before I lose another week or two soon..

My shop runs it's self pretty well.. All the members of my team have their own areas of responsibility, but like any other business the Boss has to be there to make things happen.

I don't travel much... when we race I lose a maximum of one day at the shop as we don't travel far... My average week at the shop is 70 hours and we still can't get it all done.

I have added a "General manager" to my team as of this week, as my time is too precious for admin work and I need to put all my time into the lab.. dealing with emails and phone calls has gotten entirely too old.

Time to go into hiding and get more done..

Howdy all:

Jake and I had a nice chat two nights ago and he told me the parts he was planning to use that were on my list as "TBD". He is not into listing parts that much and is far more interested in what it takes to produce the performance parameters he designs. Me--I like to see parts like many of you so now that the parts are settled on I'll post them here now.

I'll be dropping the car off at Jakes right after Tail Of The Dragon on Monday 10/19 and flying back home to Hot Springs. He'll keep the car a couple of weeks for the install and tuning. I am 4th in line
now and parts are already being accumulated for my build. The heads are already in line for CNC work and the cam may already be ground.

Anyway, here's what will go into the Type IV engine for my VS;

Crankcase-1974 Porsche 914, 2.0 (022 Type IV).
Crankshaft-71mm, 2.0 Porsche journals machined .010 with dynamic balance, magnaflux and micro polishing.
Connecting rods-H beam 5.160" length, balanced end to end with ARP 2000 bolts.
Rod bearings- Rat race bearings made by ACL of Austraila, PC3 coated.
Main bearings-Kolbenschmidt, coated.
Camshaft bearings-RAT H/D extreme duty double thrust, coated.
Lifters-RAT Tool Steel 93 gram.
Camshaft gear-helical cut alloy replacement coupled to stock T IV drive gear.
Oil pump-RAT billet with Shadek 30mm gears.
Pushrds-Manton, custom length, cromoly.
Rocker arms- VW 1.4 with solid rocker spacetrs and Porsche 911 swivel feet adjusters.
Cylinder heads-RAT LE 180-914 with 44X36mm valves based on new AMC castings with plug relocation and CNC port and chamber profiling by Len Hoffman.
Valves-stainless steel by Marnel.
Cylinder and piston assemblies-KB Hypereutectic pistons in 96mm diameter, cast iron 96mm cylinders.
Induction-EMPI 44HPMX Carbs blueprinted by Art Thraen, modified by Jake Raby, 34 mm venturis.
Ignition- Mallory NOS with Petronics unit replacing points.
Ignition cables, etc-Bosch.
Exhaust-RAT Conversion header, 1 5/8" piping.
Cooling system-RAT Down The Middle (DTM) cooling system in version 2.1 configuratiion complemented by Setrab single fan pack external oil cooler with thermostat(s).
Transaxle-RAT Stage "A" with custom gear stack.
Clutch disc-Sachs 200mm.
Flywheel-RAT 200mm forged conversion flywheel.

Along with these parts other operations for for this engine include:

Dyno tuning
Cryogenic (partial) enhancement
Blueprinting service
Severe duty valve train
Upgrade to full flow oil system w/ drilled and tapped crankcase
Drill & tap all oil galleys for removable plugs
Dynamic race balance of rotating assemby to .02 oz/in.

Lubricant-Brad Penn 20/50

That's it! This may not be perfectly exact as it's a combination of Jake's proposal and my hand-written notes working along with Jake over the past few weeks.. Any mistakes are mine and maybe Jake will chime in with any corrections---but it gives an idea of what will go into the engine. This has been a lot of fun and I've learned a lot--now I am very anxious to see and post some pictures as the build progresses.


---Jack

I need to take a nap after reading all that. That's awsome Jack, Its gonna be great!

Jack - WOW! Once Jake gets your engine installed and dialed-in, you might have to get a G-suit like the fighter pilots wear to drive that bad-boy!!

Ohhh the anticipation!!!!

Or some "Depends"...

The proposal that Jack posted is a good outline of what I have designed into the engine..

The cylinder heads are well underway for Jack's engine and we are just about on schedule.. The situation with my dad's health threw us behind by a couple of weeks and it'll take me 6+ months to get caught back up again.

The aspect of the Type 4 that Jack will get to share most with each of you is it's mannerism, even when putting out around 140HP, like Jacks.. Those manners are enhanced by the awesome torque curve of the TIV at low speeds.

We'll be able to share more as the assembly actually begins.. I plan on taking more pics of this engine than normal and to do our best to share the entire transformation of Jack's engine and Speedster with each of you here..

Data and pics on the way as the project moves into Stage III.

Jake,
Looking forward to the updates. ~Alan

I enjoy watching a master-craftsman at work! Looking forward to those posts, Jake!

jack / jake: what cam are you using with that setup?

Mango--I feel fairly sure that the cam grind is gonna be proprietary
but I'll let Jake speak for himself on this one. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't actually know the answer myself.---Jack

oh - ok.

Are you still using webcams or is it all custom now?
http://www.vwparts.net/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=VWP&Category_Code=webcamt4ch

Today I received the new CHT and Oil temp gauges,senders and lights from Westach that I'll send on to Jake with the C. B. Performance rear wheel disc brake kit tomorrow. Also today I ordered a CSP shifter (rosewood ball--oh yeah!) to be shipped directly to Jake. Might as well do the shifter now, to go with the new high-geared transmission.

Gettin' there.---Jack

ps, Lane--if you still have that CSP shifter white ball and it fits the shifter I ordered I'd sure like to see it---can you bring it to Tail Of The Dragon?

Hi Jack, Ive read this thread with great interest. I was very nearly down the same Raby engine build for my IM a couple of years ago. He builds a great motor, I was going to go with something like a 2365. I think about 180hp or so. Decided on a different direction when the 3.2 P fell from the sky and had that rebuilt instead. I often wonder how that Type 4 would have been. Light for sure, good power and torque. I can't wait to hear how you like it. Great going!

The cam Jack will be using is my RAT 9530. This is ground by Web Cam but his is not one of their grinds. Its a hybrid of two diferent camshafts.

I have my own cam profiles at web.

Howard-good to resd your note. Well, the Type IV weighs onlt 40 pounds more than the type I engine but it will go from maybe 75-80 hp to 140 or so in a car weighing 1650 pounds. (One reason for switching to disc brakes on the rear.)

I can't imagine what it's like to drive a Speedster with a 911 engine and hope to get a ride in your car someday.

an you get away from your practise to join us at Tail Of The Dragon?
This is a sensational event and will be even better this year with a lot of SOC'rs there.

---Jack

Jack - it's 20 pounds more than a T1, not 40.

Depends what you ave hanging off of it too~

Jack, I would love to do the "Tail". Time and distance and family don't allow it for this year. The ONLY reason not to do the type iv was the cost. At the end of the day the Raby motor would set me back over 12k w/o transaxel. The 3.2l, with the 915 transaxel, both rebuilt as new, cost about the same. I couldn't turn it down as it was a sweet deal. Your car will hummmmmmmm! See you soon I hope.

Mango, 20# is even better--I thought I read 40 somewhere but thanks for the correction.---Jack

I'll go look for the shift knob as soon as I get off the computer, Jack.

thanks Lane!---Jack

Found it!

Good job---Lane, please bring it to T.O.D and let me see it.

Thanks---Jack

Hey, Jack, did you weigh your car in Carlisle this year?

I seem to remember Lane having the lightest Speedster(Special Edition) at about 1800 pounds, and the heaviest was Rob's turbo SAS at close to 2400(2387 IIRC). I thought the Vintages were somewhere in between, can't remember exactly though. I guess I should have written them down.

I would think a stock type4 with the front-mounted fan as in a 914 would be 40 lbs. + on a type1. But with Jake's lightweight upright DTM, 20 is probably closer. No matter, 20 lbs. isn't a lot to quibble about, especially since you are definitely doubling your torque, and almost doubling your hp.

i just corner weighed mine as part of insurance / registration. the split to each corner was remarkably even (front was obviously less, but by not nearly as much as i thought it would be). Of course - i have my air suspension gear, and gas heater in front of my beam (battery well).

just a shade over 1900lbs with all fluids and 1/2 tank of gas (and a T4)

Danny--as I remember now, I think you weighed my car at 1850 but I had 1650 in my head which was incorrect. I wrote it down but can't locate my note.

You were kind to weigh everyone's cars at Carlisle!---Jack

As I recall, mine was 1700 lbs even, with Paul's TR just a few pounds heavier. I also remember a 39/61% rear weight bias. Then again, I forget what day it is sometimes.

Jack,
Will you be using the stock tranny/clutch with your new motor build ?? If so, will it be up to the task ??
thanks,
Alan Maguire