I have to agree with Mark. For someone who builds engines for a living to spend 80 hours on a single motor doesn't add up. At the quoted figure of US$75 per hour thats 6k before a part has been purchased. Surely with the overheads jake described he has to be doing something other than building 2 engines a month! With a back log of 23 engines at 2 weeks per engine thats what 46 weeks! sorry I don't beleive that we are all that stupid that we would believe that that many people have a need for a beetle motor and are prepared to wait for 46 weeks.
From what I have read it seems as though Jake does build a very nice motor! For the record the grin factor comes from having lots of power, not from lasting a long time!
I had to come back and edit this again. Why would you mess with the gear ratios and accept that first gear is not going to be used and that top gear is massivly long. Why would you want to pull of in second gear? Perhaps in a truck that sometimes pulls heavy trailers having a short 1st gear could be usefull from time to time but then to go to the other extrem for top gear????? What you are saying is that your gearbox will basically have two usable gears! Man what a painfull box that would be even if you had the torque of a big V8
This post is no doubt going to earn some "friends"!
Thats right.. We average 25 engines per year completed- thats all.
Not every engine takes this long to build, but all the TIV engines do. Its the facts, ask Jack, he was just here yesterday!
Nothing about what we do is done quickly and I haven't built this business based on quantity. The average wait time for an engine is 6 months, it has been since 1998. If we only complete two engines a month- so be it.
The majority of those who are working with us are restoring or building a vehicle and they have plenty of time for us to do our processes. The other group of our purchasers are like Jack and have an existing engine and car that they can drive until our work is mostly completed, keeping their car on the road longer with less down time. This group is my favorite, because they have already experienced what haste and lower costs lead to as they are looking for more.
Remember, during the time we are building engines we are also developing and evaluating components. Average wait times are just that. Heck I have two T1 engines that I am behind delivery with because it took me 4 months to find crankcases that weren't (brand new) junk!
As far as the gearing is concerned:
The engine has so much torque that with standard beetle gearing you can launch in second gear on flat ground or down hill if you want. I can do the same thing in my 996, and it's a 6 speed! Its because the engine has a ton of torque.
The first and second gear ratios are THE most expensive to alter because they are built onto the mainshaft, changing tthese gears costs a minimum of another 600.00 on top of the cost of the transaxle with the altered 3rd and 4th gears. There are instances where we do change the gears in the 1-2 position, but that seldom occurs.
With so much torque the 4th gear being tall is hardly notable because the engine has enough torque concentrated in that RPM and speed range. If the engine was a high RPM screamer with little to no torque and these same gears it would be worthless, but thats just not the case. I have 3,450 miles of data (2Gb worth) that proves just how well this gearing combination works and I drove every one of those miles in 2006 from below sea level to 11,990' above sea level.
I scaled the Continental Divde in 3rd gear and still averaged 70 MPPH to the top of it on that leg of my trip, datalogged!
If you need something with a quicker delivery date, call one of my competitors- I'll give you their numbers.
Not every engine takes this long to build, but all the TIV engines do. Its the facts, ask Jack, he was just here yesterday!
Nothing about what we do is done quickly and I haven't built this business based on quantity. The average wait time for an engine is 6 months, it has been since 1998. If we only complete two engines a month- so be it.
The majority of those who are working with us are restoring or building a vehicle and they have plenty of time for us to do our processes. The other group of our purchasers are like Jack and have an existing engine and car that they can drive until our work is mostly completed, keeping their car on the road longer with less down time. This group is my favorite, because they have already experienced what haste and lower costs lead to as they are looking for more.
Remember, during the time we are building engines we are also developing and evaluating components. Average wait times are just that. Heck I have two T1 engines that I am behind delivery with because it took me 4 months to find crankcases that weren't (brand new) junk!
As far as the gearing is concerned:
The engine has so much torque that with standard beetle gearing you can launch in second gear on flat ground or down hill if you want. I can do the same thing in my 996, and it's a 6 speed! Its because the engine has a ton of torque.
The first and second gear ratios are THE most expensive to alter because they are built onto the mainshaft, changing tthese gears costs a minimum of another 600.00 on top of the cost of the transaxle with the altered 3rd and 4th gears. There are instances where we do change the gears in the 1-2 position, but that seldom occurs.
With so much torque the 4th gear being tall is hardly notable because the engine has enough torque concentrated in that RPM and speed range. If the engine was a high RPM screamer with little to no torque and these same gears it would be worthless, but thats just not the case. I have 3,450 miles of data (2Gb worth) that proves just how well this gearing combination works and I drove every one of those miles in 2006 from below sea level to 11,990' above sea level.
I scaled the Continental Divde in 3rd gear and still averaged 70 MPPH to the top of it on that leg of my trip, datalogged!
If you need something with a quicker delivery date, call one of my competitors- I'll give you their numbers.
"...earn friends" Na, just tak'n it with a grain of salt~
Amen, Alan. What else can one say ;-)
After the loss of my Dad a few days ago we lost a few days of productivity at the shop...
BUT I now have Jack's cylinder heads and that means assembly is right around the corner! I'll take plenty of pics starting in about a week...
BTW- I drove Jack's car for the first time a few days ago and lets just say he'll have a whole new experience when he gets MassIVe power..
BUT I now have Jack's cylinder heads and that means assembly is right around the corner! I'll take plenty of pics starting in about a week...
BTW- I drove Jack's car for the first time a few days ago and lets just say he'll have a whole new experience when he gets MassIVe power..
Jack,
After driving in Joe Soltis's Raby Type IV rocket, you are in for a whole new level of Speedster driving. Cant wait to here the outcome and your reactions.
After driving in Joe Soltis's Raby Type IV rocket, you are in for a whole new level of Speedster driving. Cant wait to here the outcome and your reactions.
Marty,
Jack's engine is going together with an entirely different set of design and application desires than that of Joe's Speedster engine..
Jack wanted a different powerband, MPG and smooth reliable power more than anything..
Thats what I am shooting for. Driving Jack's car last week with the generic 1915cc engine sparked some changes in the engine's design that I have already applied.
Above all this engine will be super easy to drive and reliable.
Jack's engine is going together with an entirely different set of design and application desires than that of Joe's Speedster engine..
Jack wanted a different powerband, MPG and smooth reliable power more than anything..
Thats what I am shooting for. Driving Jack's car last week with the generic 1915cc engine sparked some changes in the engine's design that I have already applied.
Above all this engine will be super easy to drive and reliable.
The engine I'll be comparing the new Type IV to will be the original Type I , 1915 that was in my VS.---not an engine that would do well at a drag strip. With 140 hp vs my present 75-85 there will still be some very surprised kids in mustangs or rice burners though!
I expect to cruise all day at 70-75 and be able to pass easily if need be while still getting close to 30mpg. (That's 60 more hp for 3 mpg.) And that's without worrying about breaking down in Bumf*** Arizona on the way to Morrow Bay next year.
Plus, I can now use my trunk for packing clothes,etc,for trips rather than spare parts and tools. When Danny Pip weighed my car at Carlisle it was almost 50-50 front vs rear weight--that was because of the parts and tools up front!
For the money I'll have in this car/engine combo I could have gotten a Suby engine or even a used IM but wanted the more authentic Speedster experience of the Teutonic air-cooled engine, albeit one on steroids!
I know I will never see the 100,000 miles the engine is potentially capable of but when the time comes to pass to car on, someone will be pretty excited to get a VS with a Raby TypeIV engine---I'm just sayin'.
Yes, it is a slightly different engine than the rocket ships in our group but fits a certain profile well.
Jack
I expect to cruise all day at 70-75 and be able to pass easily if need be while still getting close to 30mpg. (That's 60 more hp for 3 mpg.) And that's without worrying about breaking down in Bumf*** Arizona on the way to Morrow Bay next year.
Plus, I can now use my trunk for packing clothes,etc,for trips rather than spare parts and tools. When Danny Pip weighed my car at Carlisle it was almost 50-50 front vs rear weight--that was because of the parts and tools up front!
For the money I'll have in this car/engine combo I could have gotten a Suby engine or even a used IM but wanted the more authentic Speedster experience of the Teutonic air-cooled engine, albeit one on steroids!
I know I will never see the 100,000 miles the engine is potentially capable of but when the time comes to pass to car on, someone will be pretty excited to get a VS with a Raby TypeIV engine---I'm just sayin'.
Yes, it is a slightly different engine than the rocket ships in our group but fits a certain profile well.
Jack
It's all good, Jack! I'm really looking forward to seeing you folks and your new kick-ass Speedster at Morro Bay!
Thanks, Jim. Absolutely cannot wait to meet your West Coast bruthas
out there. Maybe we can get a few more to join you at Carlisle next year too! You ARE a regular now, you know!
I selected Jack's crankcase today.. All the components have been balanced and machined and tomorrow assembly will begin! Over the course of the next 80 hours we'll come up with a fine mechanical piece for Jack :-)
worth a read Jack. I know you are getting yours built, but this might help fill in the cracks of what happens behind the scenes:
http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewtopic.php?t=189&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
i believe it's very close to the motor you ordered. (yours is a 2056, right?)
http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewtopic.php?t=189&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
i believe it's very close to the motor you ordered. (yours is a 2056, right?)
Jack's engine doesn't share much in common at all with the Bus engines in the link above.... They are both TIVs, but thats about all.
Jack's engine shares the same crankcase and crankshaft, but everything else is different with his engine than the one in the thread.. That engine was one of my Camper Special kits.
Jack's engine shares the same crankcase and crankshaft, but everything else is different with his engine than the one in the thread.. That engine was one of my Camper Special kits.
Jack's engine case is prepped and the crankshaft assembly is together after the first day of assembly..
Its going together really well so far! I plan on chassis dynoing the car tomorrow and then ripping the old engine and trans out over the coming weekend to make way for the new!
Its going together really well so far! I plan on chassis dynoing the car tomorrow and then ripping the old engine and trans out over the coming weekend to make way for the new!
Jake---Lookin' good!!
Hey Jake, post a video of the dyno run when you're finished!
I decided to take a couple of days off and spend some time at the track for the final event of the season..
I'll video the dyno sessions both before and after the MassIVe performance upgrade.
I'll video the dyno sessions both before and after the MassIVe performance upgrade.
Jake has started the engine build and will move quickly from this point---I am sure he will post some pictures soon.
Today he made a dyno graph of the present engine in the car as a "before" and was surprised to see the low hp and torque numbers. Me too! This is a 1915 engine with twin Solex carbs in good tune and
put out just a paltry 56 hp to the wheels. What a revelation---you think you have some power then find out it's not even 60 hp!
I'll post the graph and apologize for the quality but you can see the
lines of the graphs.
The bottom scale is engine speed, 3,000 is right over the "S" in the word speed.
The bottom graph is torque and the top one is hp.
Torque starts dropping off at under 3,000 rpms.
I believe that Jake will comment on this dyno but I was personally surprised to see what a "good" engine actually is.
Also Jake is doing a video to post--I hope he knows how to post it on this site ---if not we'll get it up somehow. (Calling musbejim our resident video expert!!)
Today he made a dyno graph of the present engine in the car as a "before" and was surprised to see the low hp and torque numbers. Me too! This is a 1915 engine with twin Solex carbs in good tune and
put out just a paltry 56 hp to the wheels. What a revelation---you think you have some power then find out it's not even 60 hp!
I'll post the graph and apologize for the quality but you can see the
lines of the graphs.
The bottom scale is engine speed, 3,000 is right over the "S" in the word speed.
The bottom graph is torque and the top one is hp.
Torque starts dropping off at under 3,000 rpms.
I believe that Jake will comment on this dyno but I was personally surprised to see what a "good" engine actually is.
Also Jake is doing a video to post--I hope he knows how to post it on this site ---if not we'll get it up somehow. (Calling musbejim our resident video expert!!)
Attachments
Images (1)
Well Jack.....You are going to be in for a real suprise when you mash the "GO" pedal from now on.......Keep it between the white lines......
These are REAR WHEEL power numbers from my chassis dyno... Not the engine dyno. We'll be evaluating Jack's new engine on the engine dyno and the chassis dyno.
The chassis dyno gives evaluations of the entire arrangement in the vehicle, set up and tuned as driven on the street. This evaluation was done with Jack's Speedster EXACTLY as it was driven up Raby Drive and dropped off by Jack.
With these being rear wheel HP numbers they include the drivetrain losses from the gearbox, axles and brakes, that means basically the engine is prodicing 18% more power (+/-) than these graphs depict.
I will say I have only had one other engine make less power on this dyno-jet chassis dyno than Jacks and it was a 160,000 mile stock 1600 Type 1.
Jak's new numbers will dwarf the evaluations depicted in the grpahs Jack posted, we will at minimum add 60 HP at the rear wheels to this Speedster with a much more broad RPM range with more area concentrated across the torque plateau.
I'll provide overlays of the graphs when we are done...
I did capture video today, will work to get that edited and uploaded to youtube in the coming days...
The chassis dyno gives evaluations of the entire arrangement in the vehicle, set up and tuned as driven on the street. This evaluation was done with Jack's Speedster EXACTLY as it was driven up Raby Drive and dropped off by Jack.
With these being rear wheel HP numbers they include the drivetrain losses from the gearbox, axles and brakes, that means basically the engine is prodicing 18% more power (+/-) than these graphs depict.
I will say I have only had one other engine make less power on this dyno-jet chassis dyno than Jacks and it was a 160,000 mile stock 1600 Type 1.
Jak's new numbers will dwarf the evaluations depicted in the grpahs Jack posted, we will at minimum add 60 HP at the rear wheels to this Speedster with a much more broad RPM range with more area concentrated across the torque plateau.
I'll provide overlays of the graphs when we are done...
I did capture video today, will work to get that edited and uploaded to youtube in the coming days...
Jack - if it's an consolation - it's a very smooth curve on your old 1915.
Looking forward to seeing some more info on this engine. my T4 is coming out in a few weeks.
Looking forward to seeing some more info on this engine. my T4 is coming out in a few weeks.
mango---what are you putting your Type IV in? Who is building it?
Not sure i understand. It's already in my 356 - just took it for a rip last night. I'm pulling it to rebuilt it because i need a winter project.
and i am doing it - along with everything else on my car (except paint)
and i am doing it - along with everything else on my car (except paint)
I get it, "coming out = rebuild. Is it in a Speedster? What make of Speedster?
I just heard from Jake's manager and my old engine is out of the car and crated for shipment. The new Type IV is almost complete.
I just heard from Jake's manager and my old engine is out of the car and crated for shipment. The new Type IV is almost complete.
The MassIVe engine now has the cylinder heads installed and is ready for valve train geometry on Monday.. Right on schedule.
Should see the dyno cell by the end of next week.
Should see the dyno cell by the end of next week.
Dammit--no link---good thing I'm not building this engine! I emailed musbjim and Gerd and asked them to post the link---sorry.
for jack
for jack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3by2sjIPvQ
jake
whats the story on that black coupe next to jacks car
whats the story on that black coupe next to jacks car
Very nice, a good baseline to compare to is a great idea.
Great production values too, Jake.
P.S. I want that black coupe too.
Great production values too, Jake.
P.S. I want that black coupe too.
here you go - post the 'embedded' code into the youtube box.
Is that the engine I purchased being exposed to over 5000 rpms? What purpose did that serve?
Jack;
Sorry I didn't get to your message sooner (late night at the office). Very cool video, however!! You got some mad computer skilz.
Sorry I didn't get to your message sooner (late night at the office). Very cool video, however!! You got some mad computer skilz.
BOY IM LAUGHING SO HARD
JACK WE DID SCREW SOMETHING UP
JACK WE DID SCREW SOMETHING UP
That is freakin cool!!!
If your new transmission is there why can't they ship my transmission out, what are they waiting for?
I'll ask Jake to post the reason for the delay in shipping the transmission out and when it will go.
The new transaxle for Jack's car is not completed yet as I await one part to come in for it that was backordered from two different suppliers. The part is on the way to me now via next day air, but it'll take the better part of next week to get the tranny completed and ready to go into Jack's car. I'd be able to ship the old tranny to you by the end of next week if it wasn't for the Holiday that will shut us down for two days .(Damn do I hate holidays!) With a swing axle car when the transaxle is removed the car is crippled and can't be moved. I am in the middle of paving my parking lot, so it is critical that the car doesn't become completely handicapped until we can install the new tranny.
The Black Coupe in the pics is "Bad Egg".. Its no replicar and is one of the best outlaw 356s I have ever seen... It's here to get 175HP of MassIVe Performance and will be completed just after Jack's Speedster is headed back to Arkansas.
Jack, the old engine didn't mind the RPM elevation, in fact it seemed to run better after a couple of pulls on the dyno.
Jack's MassIVe engine is bolted to the RAT Engine dyno and is sitting in the test cell now awaiting it's initial fire up, break in and tuning sessions. We'll be completing this stage of the engine through Monday while I paint Jack's DTM cooling system with a nice contrasting color. I'll be using our test cooling system to do all the engine dyno test work while the paint on Jack's DTM cures for a few days.
I'd expect for everything to come together quickly after Thanksgiving then its time for more evaluations on the chassis dyno and my couple hundred mile test drive.
I changed the engine combo for Jack's car after I drove the car and had a better understanding of it's character.. It got a tad bigger to make even more down low torque and will retain the same HP curves and numbers as the originally planned combination.
The Black Coupe in the pics is "Bad Egg".. Its no replicar and is one of the best outlaw 356s I have ever seen... It's here to get 175HP of MassIVe Performance and will be completed just after Jack's Speedster is headed back to Arkansas.
Jack, the old engine didn't mind the RPM elevation, in fact it seemed to run better after a couple of pulls on the dyno.
Jack's MassIVe engine is bolted to the RAT Engine dyno and is sitting in the test cell now awaiting it's initial fire up, break in and tuning sessions. We'll be completing this stage of the engine through Monday while I paint Jack's DTM cooling system with a nice contrasting color. I'll be using our test cooling system to do all the engine dyno test work while the paint on Jack's DTM cures for a few days.
I'd expect for everything to come together quickly after Thanksgiving then its time for more evaluations on the chassis dyno and my couple hundred mile test drive.
I changed the engine combo for Jack's car after I drove the car and had a better understanding of it's character.. It got a tad bigger to make even more down low torque and will retain the same HP curves and numbers as the originally planned combination.
JAKE CAN U POST SOME PICS OF BAD EGG