I just read this entire thread. It's a great read for anyone thinking of an engine build. Jack, I sure hope you make it to Morro. I want to see that bad boy.
Warren
Note that I pulled this engine all the way down to 1,500 RPM during my tests.. You generally won't find a dyno chart that evaluates an engine below 3,000 RPM and at best 2,500 RPM.
The reason for that is most engines won't produce measurable power this smoothly at wide open throttle at such a low RPM.
This combination does and thats why I chose it for Jack and his driving characteristics.
The reason for that is most engines won't produce measurable power this smoothly at wide open throttle at such a low RPM.
This combination does and thats why I chose it for Jack and his driving characteristics.
Jake, too bad, I'd like to sit down and share a pint with you someday.
Jack, I will take you up on that, and you are welcome to drive my Spyder as well.
Jack, I will take you up on that, and you are welcome to drive my Spyder as well.
Jack ..DO, I repeat DO, drive Danny's Spyder :)
Danny my friend, we have a deal! Freom what I've heard about your rocketship, (" go-cart quick"); I'll ride while YOU drive! Lookin' forward to the trip!
BTW: Danny you NEED to make it to Morro (No friggin'"W") next April.
In fact, a l-o-t of ypu East coasters need to be there. Marty G. is so excited about Morro that he's doin' a Left Coast preview in 2-3 weeks.
BTW: Danny you NEED to make it to Morro (No friggin'"W") next April.
In fact, a l-o-t of ypu East coasters need to be there. Marty G. is so excited about Morro that he's doin' a Left Coast preview in 2-3 weeks.
Jake, I'm very sorry to hear about your Dad passing away. If there's anything we can do for you, let us know.
Jack, I just read this from top to bottom. I'm pretty sure you're going to be happy with the results -- right down low in your belly, you're going to feel a better definition of torque than anybody could put into words.
Jim Sartwell, who built my 2366 -- now a 2424cc -- engine, was concerned about all the same things as Jake has described here. We used circlips on the wrist pins behind my pistons in the smaller configuration, and one of them escaped. That banged up a cylinder and meant we had to make some changes. I called Jake for his recommendations and he gave me the list of options as if I was buying from him. I did go with his cooling system, and I haven't had any problems in almost three years.
The circlips got replaced with nylon buttons, among other changes.
Taking the time to put just the right pieces in, balancing, polishing and optimizing everything before it goes together as a unit is a really good thing. You should be glad he's that conscientious. You could probably pull Gordon's truck around if you wanted to, without dorking up your parts.
I'm looking forward to seeing (and riding in) your car next year at the big Carlisle show. Hell, I'm looking forward to driving the Hoopty there, too. Haven't done THAT in a few years. ...
Jack, I just read this from top to bottom. I'm pretty sure you're going to be happy with the results -- right down low in your belly, you're going to feel a better definition of torque than anybody could put into words.
Jim Sartwell, who built my 2366 -- now a 2424cc -- engine, was concerned about all the same things as Jake has described here. We used circlips on the wrist pins behind my pistons in the smaller configuration, and one of them escaped. That banged up a cylinder and meant we had to make some changes. I called Jake for his recommendations and he gave me the list of options as if I was buying from him. I did go with his cooling system, and I haven't had any problems in almost three years.
The circlips got replaced with nylon buttons, among other changes.
Taking the time to put just the right pieces in, balancing, polishing and optimizing everything before it goes together as a unit is a really good thing. You should be glad he's that conscientious. You could probably pull Gordon's truck around if you wanted to, without dorking up your parts.
I'm looking forward to seeing (and riding in) your car next year at the big Carlisle show. Hell, I'm looking forward to driving the Hoopty there, too. Haven't done THAT in a few years. ...
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Cory--it is good to see you more active and back in the swing of things. We all have missed seeing the Hoopty at events and it's good to know we'll see you, Bert AND the Hoopy at Carlisle!
I read a good explanation of horsepower and torque; HP is how fast you can hit a wall and torque is how much the wall moves as you are hitting it! Not that I plan to hit any walls--that's what the discs on all 4 wheela are for!
Jake says + or - a couple more weeks to finish the project-- still to do at this point:
-Finish the tranny (higher third gear and .082 4th)
-Paint the DTM & tins light metallic aluminum
-Add engine accesories incl the DTM
-install the engine and fab a rear engine mount
-add gauges for CHT and Oil temp
-install rear disc brakes
-replace the camber compensator
-Dyno the car for tuning and graphing
-Personally drive the car over 600 miles and final tune
That's my perspective on the remaining work and Jake will have some variations I know.
I wonder when anyone ever had an engine created and installed and then the builder personally drove the car over 600 miles before delivery to be certain it was perfect?
I read a good explanation of horsepower and torque; HP is how fast you can hit a wall and torque is how much the wall moves as you are hitting it! Not that I plan to hit any walls--that's what the discs on all 4 wheela are for!
Jake says + or - a couple more weeks to finish the project-- still to do at this point:
-Finish the tranny (higher third gear and .082 4th)
-Paint the DTM & tins light metallic aluminum
-Add engine accesories incl the DTM
-install the engine and fab a rear engine mount
-add gauges for CHT and Oil temp
-install rear disc brakes
-replace the camber compensator
-Dyno the car for tuning and graphing
-Personally drive the car over 600 miles and final tune
That's my perspective on the remaining work and Jake will have some variations I know.
I wonder when anyone ever had an engine created and installed and then the builder personally drove the car over 600 miles before delivery to be certain it was perfect?
Well Jack, 600 miles at Road Atlanta is just an afternoon's workout.....;-)
Cory wrote: "You could probably pull Gordon's truck around if you wanted to, without dorking up your parts. "
Yup...you'd probably look like this:
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f254/speedster356/IMG_0355Copy.jpg
Notice the trailer and car behind the truck - all part of the circus parade!
Yup...you'd probably look like this:
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f254/speedster356/IMG_0355Copy.jpg
Notice the trailer and car behind the truck - all part of the circus parade!
600 miles is one week of commuting to/ from the shop for me... Before any vehicle goes back home after our work I do my best to put those 600 miles on the work that we have done.
Jake...I know you do first rate work....I just like to kid Jack a lot...Sorry if I offended you....
No worries.. Its just that my test drive and some other aspects of what we do here are so far from what others do that they seem almost unbelievable..
With any luck Jack's engine will be stabbed into the car this week, I still have to finish the painting of the DTM and color sand it, then install the tin work and dress it all up..
But first the pinion bearing I need for the transaxle has to come in before I can get the engine in the car..
With any luck Jack's engine will be stabbed into the car this week, I still have to finish the painting of the DTM and color sand it, then install the tin work and dress it all up..
But first the pinion bearing I need for the transaxle has to come in before I can get the engine in the car..
Tranny parts came in this morning... Now we can get somewhere!
Jack - you might need a re-fill on your Quaaludes to handle the anticipation!!
Tranny is now installed.. Will get some sleep, then finish the DTM detail work, get it installed and star fabbing the engine support and surround tin tomorrow
Jake--you are now rolling! Things are coming together which is so good to see! It has been fun!
Jim--more than you know!
Jim--more than you know!
Jack,
Looks like you will have it for the Christmas parade. You will be the belle of the ball.
Looks like you will have it for the Christmas parade. You will be the belle of the ball.
Don't get your hopes up.. everything is going great, BUT until this baby passes the tests its not done. I put the day into it today and the details are taking lots of time.
I had to fab custom tin to seal the engine bay of the Vintage since the engine bay is different than the other default templates that I have. Jack also requested a reinforced engine mount bar to be installed, so thats something else I have to fabricate from scratch. I also have to make lots of changes to the exhaust system that I want to run in this car to make it fit correctly.. And then create the entire external oiling system.
I have been taking pics, when I get a bit farther I'll send some to Jack..
I had to fab custom tin to seal the engine bay of the Vintage since the engine bay is different than the other default templates that I have. Jack also requested a reinforced engine mount bar to be installed, so thats something else I have to fabricate from scratch. I also have to make lots of changes to the exhaust system that I want to run in this car to make it fit correctly.. And then create the entire external oiling system.
I have been taking pics, when I get a bit farther I'll send some to Jack..
This might be good news to others with Vintage Speedsters---that Jake will now have a template for the tins for this platform for future VS cars looking to upgrade the engine to Type IV power and reliability. Someone had to be first---right?
Jake. I too have a type IV speedy. It is my understanding that all type fours originally came with a rear engine mount due to additional weight and torque output.
Are you saying you are ONLY supplying a rear engine mount because Jack requested it? Or are you saying Jack's rear mount is custom because a stock mount won't fit (like mine), due to exhaust configuration and/or other factors?
You wouldn't just hang a type four onto the bell housing alone, with no rear support would you?
Are you saying you are ONLY supplying a rear engine mount because Jack requested it? Or are you saying Jack's rear mount is custom because a stock mount won't fit (like mine), due to exhaust configuration and/or other factors?
You wouldn't just hang a type four onto the bell housing alone, with no rear support would you?
I know the answer to this question, but I'll let Jake give it to you!
BTW, I have one of Jake's type1 screamers in a Spyder. Never had a type4.
BTW, I have one of Jake's type1 screamers in a Spyder. Never had a type4.
The reason why TIV engines have rear hangar mounts is because NONE of the vehicles they were originally installed into had frame horns. These vehicles had no midship mount positions for support at all, the engine and tranny were hung from their farthest mounting points, unlike a Type 1. The 68-71 Bus used a TI style engine with a rear engine hangar position for this same reason, just like the 68 and later Type III.
The Type 4 converted to upright is less than 30 pounds heavier than a Type 1. I weighed Jack's old engine when it was shipped and I'll weigh the new one tomorrow to prove this. This 30 pounds isn't enough to create an issue with mounting weight, if it were all the people who have the new auto linea T1 engine cases would also need a rear engine support as these engines rival the weight of a TIV with their heavy sand cast cases.
I've been doing TIV conversions since the early 1990s and have installed engines from the output of Jacks all the way up to a 250HP twin plug (N/A) daily driver making over 200 lb/ft of torque at the rear wheels. In the early days i also believed that the frame horns were not sufficient for the job of engine support, but time and application experience has proven that to be incorrect. If you are drag racing or driving aggressively more mounting is required, but for Jacks application it is pure overkill.
If I add anything its a torsion bar brace arrangement like the CSP torque bar or BugPack truss bar. This supports the frame horns and ties them into the rear suspension creating a more rigid arrangement without creating a nightmare with the exhaust system like I'll run into with Jack's install (not looking forward to that at all).
My wife's beetle has had a 250HP engine installed in the past and now has a 2270 roller cammed engine making about 140RWHP, it doesn't use a rear engine mount because I know her application doesn't require it.
No, had Jack not requested this additional mount I would not be doing this. I actually advised him not to do it, just save the money. You won't find many people who will talk you out of spending money with them, especially these days.
The Type 4 converted to upright is less than 30 pounds heavier than a Type 1. I weighed Jack's old engine when it was shipped and I'll weigh the new one tomorrow to prove this. This 30 pounds isn't enough to create an issue with mounting weight, if it were all the people who have the new auto linea T1 engine cases would also need a rear engine support as these engines rival the weight of a TIV with their heavy sand cast cases.
I've been doing TIV conversions since the early 1990s and have installed engines from the output of Jacks all the way up to a 250HP twin plug (N/A) daily driver making over 200 lb/ft of torque at the rear wheels. In the early days i also believed that the frame horns were not sufficient for the job of engine support, but time and application experience has proven that to be incorrect. If you are drag racing or driving aggressively more mounting is required, but for Jacks application it is pure overkill.
If I add anything its a torsion bar brace arrangement like the CSP torque bar or BugPack truss bar. This supports the frame horns and ties them into the rear suspension creating a more rigid arrangement without creating a nightmare with the exhaust system like I'll run into with Jack's install (not looking forward to that at all).
My wife's beetle has had a 250HP engine installed in the past and now has a 2270 roller cammed engine making about 140RWHP, it doesn't use a rear engine mount because I know her application doesn't require it.
No, had Jack not requested this additional mount I would not be doing this. I actually advised him not to do it, just save the money. You won't find many people who will talk you out of spending money with them, especially these days.
Jake is correct he did say to save the $$ and I appreciated this--it's not the first time Jake has saved me money on this project either.
His years of engineering things equips him to know the best approach to any issue, as I have experienced first hand working with him.
I felt that this was a Vintage Fiberglass car issue--not a steel bug or Spyder issue as I read that these cars will sag in the back without bracing the engine. Jake has put monster engines in VW Bugs with no special support and it works to perfection. The worry for me was that the fiberglass car is different from the steel cars and that monster torque and weight will affect a replica differently.
I am very flumoxed on this issue and went the course of overkill,I guess.
We will see how this turns out after Jake evaluates the situation with this particular car and develops an approach that will work to his standards.
His years of engineering things equips him to know the best approach to any issue, as I have experienced first hand working with him.
I felt that this was a Vintage Fiberglass car issue--not a steel bug or Spyder issue as I read that these cars will sag in the back without bracing the engine. Jake has put monster engines in VW Bugs with no special support and it works to perfection. The worry for me was that the fiberglass car is different from the steel cars and that monster torque and weight will affect a replica differently.
I am very flumoxed on this issue and went the course of overkill,I guess.
We will see how this turns out after Jake evaluates the situation with this particular car and develops an approach that will work to his standards.
There is absolutely no such thing as overkill...
Won't get much done today on Jack's car.. Between the weather we are having and the crew here installing my new alarm system things are FUBAR, so I am catching up on admin crap :-)
Won't get much done today on Jack's car.. Between the weather we are having and the crew here installing my new alarm system things are FUBAR, so I am catching up on admin crap :-)
I stand corected. I'm here to learn more.
Jake reports that he has completed installing the rear disc brake kit this morning--early-- and that it was a challenge to fit. He had recommended discs on all four wheels to stop this beast and I quickly agreed.
He decided on using CSP products for torque control and rear engine support and the parts were shippped from cip1 by air freight yesterday and will reach Aircooled Heaven in the morning.
Gettin' there!!
He decided on using CSP products for torque control and rear engine support and the parts were shippped from cip1 by air freight yesterday and will reach Aircooled Heaven in the morning.
Gettin' there!!
(Duplicate post -- sorry.)
David, I have a motor plate and reinforced tranny horns at the front of my engine, and am actually using the four mounting bolts at the rear (pulley side) to hold a two-inch square bar that supports my rear body section. No problems so far, and it's been three years.
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CSP torque bar is installed, brakes are done (the kit isn't making me happy) and the engine will go in tonight. After that we have lots of detail work to fit the surround tin and etc.
Jake just called me to update the status of the project.
I can't tell you how nice it is working with Jake on a project such as this. Totally straight, honest, clear and professional. The feeling that the absolutely correct decision was made after researching other engine builders for many months---of course he is much more than an engine builder. This guy knows how to do it all!
Soon, very soon.
I can't tell you how nice it is working with Jake on a project such as this. Totally straight, honest, clear and professional. The feeling that the absolutely correct decision was made after researching other engine builders for many months---of course he is much more than an engine builder. This guy knows how to do it all!
Soon, very soon.
Another day of fighting variables is over..My outlook on these cars isn't what it was 18 hours ago.
Jake ran into some "curious fabrication" that was done when my car was built and he had to overcome the asmetrical rear left and right sides due to different year bug parts used on the left side and the right side that were different shapes and therefore not matched. Amazing.
Being who he is, he figured it out and worked around this issue, but it was a major PITA --you can see that his post was almost 1:00 AM. He most definitely practices what he preaches---in spades.
I wanted folks to understand his frustration when he made his post after a weary day in the wee hours.
Being who he is, he figured it out and worked around this issue, but it was a major PITA --you can see that his post was almost 1:00 AM. He most definitely practices what he preaches---in spades.
I wanted folks to understand his frustration when he made his post after a weary day in the wee hours.
I suppose the time on this forum is set in Pacific time as my post was made at almost 0400.
I am still fighting to overcome the issues of the mis-matched year model rear torsion assembly. The issue is serious because it has one of the shocks compressed and the other hyper-extended. The car really needs two different length rear shocks installed to counter this.
The mismatch made yesterday a real bitch and today will be no better as the entire engine is mounted into the car at a different attitude than the body. The old engine was the same way, but no one ever noticed it.
I am having to overcome this by tweaking the muffler so it sits straight in the car and the same thing with the CSP torque bar. I took 55 pictures of the "situation" to help illustrate and record what the gripes were. I'll send these to Jack today and he can post them if he wishes, there may be other cars like his out there.
Who ever built Jack's car didn't know that there were differences in the rear torsion over the years of VW production and they didn't have enough attention to detail to notice it and obviously didn't care about it. Now I am having to pay for it.
I am still fighting to overcome the issues of the mis-matched year model rear torsion assembly. The issue is serious because it has one of the shocks compressed and the other hyper-extended. The car really needs two different length rear shocks installed to counter this.
The mismatch made yesterday a real bitch and today will be no better as the entire engine is mounted into the car at a different attitude than the body. The old engine was the same way, but no one ever noticed it.
I am having to overcome this by tweaking the muffler so it sits straight in the car and the same thing with the CSP torque bar. I took 55 pictures of the "situation" to help illustrate and record what the gripes were. I'll send these to Jack today and he can post them if he wishes, there may be other cars like his out there.
Who ever built Jack's car didn't know that there were differences in the rear torsion over the years of VW production and they didn't have enough attention to detail to notice it and obviously didn't care about it. Now I am having to pay for it.
This is amazing.
It will be very interesting to learn more.
It will be very interesting to learn more.
This is a good time to post "The 5 stages of a project" I used this in business but it can apply to any project---you all can identify:
1. Initial euphoria
2. Creping dissolusionment
3. Search for the guilty
4. Punish the innocent
5. Reward the uninvolved
I'm sure that we will be returning to #1 shortly as this gets sorted.
I'll post some pictures when I get them.
1. Initial euphoria
2. Creping dissolusionment
3. Search for the guilty
4. Punish the innocent
5. Reward the uninvolved
I'm sure that we will be returning to #1 shortly as this gets sorted.
I'll post some pictures when I get them.
Jake-I'm curious here: according to Jack's profile he's got a '77 pan. Can you identify the year(year range) of producton of the suspect (mis-matched) part/assy.? Appreciate it!
Scott--the profile says I have a '77 owner's manual--not a '77 pan.
The pan my car is built on is a 1968, vin #118733257.
It looks like the car has one rear torsion assembly from a '68 Bug and the other from a '66 or '67.
The pan my car is built on is a 1968, vin #118733257.
It looks like the car has one rear torsion assembly from a '68 Bug and the other from a '66 or '67.
OK-I assumed too much; but I think I've got my answer. Thank you.
Must mean the torsion bars themselves are different # ratings. I've seen different diameter bars which would affect their # spring rating. According to Sway-a-way they come 24mm all the way up to 30mm diameter.
Wouldn't a '66-67 be swing axel and the '68 IRS?
Wouldn't a '66-67 be swing axel and the '68 IRS?
I believe IRS started with the 1969 year.