I think I'm there. The guys at Cip1 will either get me the calipers and brackets drop shipped to my door or they will send me their conversion kit w/o the rotors. So I should end up with everything I need, one way I'll save a little more than the other.
I'm going to have to take Greg B up on his incredibly generous offer on the drum spindles and I'm good to go with the wide 5 conversion.
I just want to thank everyone for their help, sympathy, encouragement, knowledge and expertise. This site is sooooooo worth the $35 fee! I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer so I had to learn a VERY expensive lesson by not reading more intently and thinking before I bought. If I'd done those things I wouldn't be where I am, but I KNOW in the long run I'll be happier with my car sporting wide 5's.
I'll keep a record of the process and post it when it's done. It's my hope to save someone the pain and suffering I've endured in this. Being that these cars, or some, are 'Franken-Cars' no two projects are the same and therefore what applies to one may not to another.
You probably have some very sharp knives in your drawer.
Congrats; your car will look killer. Jjr has a CMC with IRS and wide 5's on his car and the 5.5" rims fit in the back (including the CB Performance aluminum drum covers); you shouldn't have any problems. Taking some inspiration on my car he retrofitted the SoCal front disc set on his and it was a bolt on; it doesn't use any backing plates and I gather the calipers are Rabbit units (ATE if I remember correctly).
Mickey
Mickey,
I just read this on theSamba:
"you could convert 68 and newer rear brakes to wide 5 by using type 3 rear drums. direct bolt on"
I just read this on theSamba:
"you could convert 68 and newer rear brakes to wide 5 by using type 3 rear drums. direct bolt on"
TC,
$89 from CB Performance. And I wouldn't do the conversion if I couldn't add them. As you know, the originals had real aluminum drums so it wouldn't look 'correct' without them.
Mike,
I bought the "wide 5 conversion" drums from Cip1 which I think is their fancy way of saying Type 3 drums.
The funny thing about this project is in the past I never did it because of what was involved with the spacing concerns of the IRS. So when I saw these "new 'no track increase' wide 5 conversion" drums I thought HOORAY!!!, I can now put wide 5's on my car with no hassle! Never even considering the front spindle/rotor issue, or the difference in + offset of the wide 5 wheel. The lesson learned (again, many times over in my life) is if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
$89 from CB Performance. And I wouldn't do the conversion if I couldn't add them. As you know, the originals had real aluminum drums so it wouldn't look 'correct' without them.
Mike,
I bought the "wide 5 conversion" drums from Cip1 which I think is their fancy way of saying Type 3 drums.
The funny thing about this project is in the past I never did it because of what was involved with the spacing concerns of the IRS. So when I saw these "new 'no track increase' wide 5 conversion" drums I thought HOORAY!!!, I can now put wide 5's on my car with no hassle! Never even considering the front spindle/rotor issue, or the difference in + offset of the wide 5 wheel. The lesson learned (again, many times over in my life) is if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
Maybe I shouldn't mention this, but ANY wide five drum can be used on an IRS axle. Sometimes you need to remove around 0.75" from the snout, sometimes you need to add a shim between the drum and the axle nut threads. If you find that the Type III/conversion drums are hitting the backing plates, you can use crankshaft end-play shims to space the drums out just a bit. They work great, being that they're the correct size, AND as strong as hell.
You don't need to worry about saying anything TC. The difference in cost of the "conversion" drums compared to stock T3 or any other drum is $10-$15 give or take.
It was always about the fitment in the wheel well for me. Whether it's the old IM mold, the IRS, the construction, all of it combined, who knows? My issue is, even after grinding out the inner lip of the rear well of the passenger side I only have about a 1/4" between the outer edge of the tire and the inside of the wheel well (slightly more on drivers side). And that's with a stock VW 4 bolt wheel (0 + offset) and a 165 tire. So there is no other set up of wheel and tire that will fit on my car, other than what is currently on there, unless I wanted to go narrower with skinnier tires. The ONLY option I have is to narrow the rear in some way (new arms or replace IRS with swingaxle). Either way is about the same cost and about the same effort. Since the IRS is a little better setup I chose to narrow.
Last week I started the conversion and ran into the snag with the rotor/spindle so I scrapped it. Tomorrow I dive in again with the rear. I figure a day or two to get the new arms & axles in and put the new drums on. I'll keep you posted on the progress.
It was always about the fitment in the wheel well for me. Whether it's the old IM mold, the IRS, the construction, all of it combined, who knows? My issue is, even after grinding out the inner lip of the rear well of the passenger side I only have about a 1/4" between the outer edge of the tire and the inside of the wheel well (slightly more on drivers side). And that's with a stock VW 4 bolt wheel (0 + offset) and a 165 tire. So there is no other set up of wheel and tire that will fit on my car, other than what is currently on there, unless I wanted to go narrower with skinnier tires. The ONLY option I have is to narrow the rear in some way (new arms or replace IRS with swingaxle). Either way is about the same cost and about the same effort. Since the IRS is a little better setup I chose to narrow.
Last week I started the conversion and ran into the snag with the rotor/spindle so I scrapped it. Tomorrow I dive in again with the rear. I figure a day or two to get the new arms & axles in and put the new drums on. I'll keep you posted on the progress.
Mickey,
There is another option. How good is your body guy?
Flares are an option, but I don't think that's the look you're after... OR
widen the body at the rear. Check against another Speedster that wide wheels fit under; determine the difference and where and why; cut/slice&dice; Fibergalss; Bondo; Bodywork; Paint.
Greg
There is another option. How good is your body guy?
Flares are an option, but I don't think that's the look you're after... OR
widen the body at the rear. Check against another Speedster that wide wheels fit under; determine the difference and where and why; cut/slice&dice; Fibergalss; Bondo; Bodywork; Paint.
Greg
How difficult was the cutting, narrowing, and welding on the rear torsion housing? I was wondering how much was removed and such. What is the total amount gained?
Thanks,
TC
Thanks,
TC
IRS Narrowing Project Progress Report
Greg, flares are not for me. If I was racing the car or something I'd do whatever is necessary to make it fast and stable. I like the non-flared look, it's a little more classic in my view.
TC,
I didn't actually alter my existing trailing arms (like Paul form Canada did), I bought a set from Air Cooled. They were $425 for both. They're extremely well built as far as the welds, craftmanship, ect. I don't want to say anything about the overall fit until I tackle the shock issue, but the one I put in today snugged up nice with little fight. I'll take a pic of the one I'm putting in tomorrow so you can see it, it's different from the one they show on their site. Also, Paul documented his narrowing on the samba if you want to see how it's done cutting and re-welding the stock arms. (link below).
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=274359&highlight=narrow+101
TC,
I didn't actually alter my existing trailing arms (like Paul form Canada did), I bought a set from Air Cooled. They were $425 for both. They're extremely well built as far as the welds, craftmanship, ect. I don't want to say anything about the overall fit until I tackle the shock issue, but the one I put in today snugged up nice with little fight. I'll take a pic of the one I'm putting in tomorrow so you can see it, it's different from the one they show on their site. Also, Paul documented his narrowing on the samba if you want to see how it's done cutting and re-welding the stock arms. (link below).
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=274359&highlight=narrow+101
Well done, Mickey. Good for you, Dude!
Once the axle length is locked in, the training arms are shortened to accommodate that length. Is the torsion housing and rear torsion bar narrowed/shortened and re-splined to work with the new narrowed components?
If not, how do the shortened trailing arms attach to the old spring plates in the new inboard position?
With the stub axle and drum/brake assembly now closer to the transaxle, does the tire hit the spring plates?
Can even shorter axles with even shorter trailing arms be used to gain room for even wider wheels?
Does your rear torsion housing have the twin plate mounting set-up for the spring plates or the single one? Does that make a difference in the success/ease of the installation?
If it's just a matter of the trailing arms and axles, this sounds Easy Peasy ! !
This just has ME written all over it ! ! ! ! ! Especially if it's as easy as it seems.
Lemme know, please.
If not, how do the shortened trailing arms attach to the old spring plates in the new inboard position?
With the stub axle and drum/brake assembly now closer to the transaxle, does the tire hit the spring plates?
Can even shorter axles with even shorter trailing arms be used to gain room for even wider wheels?
Does your rear torsion housing have the twin plate mounting set-up for the spring plates or the single one? Does that make a difference in the success/ease of the installation?
If it's just a matter of the trailing arms and axles, this sounds Easy Peasy ! !
This just has ME written all over it ! ! ! ! ! Especially if it's as easy as it seems.
Lemme know, please.
TC,
The axles I used were the shortest available without going custom. They are the left side axle for a Type 3 Auto. There was no work done to the torsion housing or torsion bars. The narrowed arm is simply made to come back at a narrower angle. It bolts on just like a stock one does. Yes, the narrowed arms do attach to the spring plate in the same way the stock ones do. I have a dual spring plate set up on mine. I imagine you are looking to do the work yourself by reconfiguring stock trailing arms so you
The axles I used were the shortest available without going custom. They are the left side axle for a Type 3 Auto. There was no work done to the torsion housing or torsion bars. The narrowed arm is simply made to come back at a narrower angle. It bolts on just like a stock one does. Yes, the narrowed arms do attach to the spring plate in the same way the stock ones do. I have a dual spring plate set up on mine. I imagine you are looking to do the work yourself by reconfiguring stock trailing arms so you
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Well, I finished up the narrowed rear today. There are a few things that need to be sorted out but for the most part it's done. I didn't have time for the rear sway bar, I think I'll wait until the alignment is done before I do it. I'm not even sure it'll fit with the new narrowed rear end, I have to check that too.
All in all it was a pretty straight forward project. As mentioned in the post to TC, I did have to do some creative fitting here and there. The shocks were an issue because the top position had to be moved (spacers) so the shock would align correctly through the arm. And the bottom mount was too wide for the stock bolt so I had to get longer bolts a make some spacers. That and the tabs for the brake lines need to be welded back on to the new arms.
The driver side arm gave me fits (an extra hour) to get the forward bolt out of the bushing. It seems the sleeve in the bushing 'fused' itself to the bolt and wouldn't allow the bolt to back out. It took some serious fudging to get it free. And then just to kick me in the groin again, the other half of the sleeve and 'melded' itself to the mounting socket. It was in there so tight I had to pound it with a mini sledge for 10 mins to knock it off! I guess little things like that are to be expected with a car that is 30+ years old. Below is a pic of the new wheels on. The shadow on the upper part of the tire kind of hides the clearance. I can now easily slide my entire hand around the wheel. Before I couldn't get my little finger in there.
As I mentioned many times, I am keeping a record of the process ect... involved in this project. If anyone is considering doing this let me know and I will email you the pics and info. It's a lot of work and a lot of money, just so you know.
All in all it was a pretty straight forward project. As mentioned in the post to TC, I did have to do some creative fitting here and there. The shocks were an issue because the top position had to be moved (spacers) so the shock would align correctly through the arm. And the bottom mount was too wide for the stock bolt so I had to get longer bolts a make some spacers. That and the tabs for the brake lines need to be welded back on to the new arms.
The driver side arm gave me fits (an extra hour) to get the forward bolt out of the bushing. It seems the sleeve in the bushing 'fused' itself to the bolt and wouldn't allow the bolt to back out. It took some serious fudging to get it free. And then just to kick me in the groin again, the other half of the sleeve and 'melded' itself to the mounting socket. It was in there so tight I had to pound it with a mini sledge for 10 mins to knock it off! I guess little things like that are to be expected with a car that is 30+ years old. Below is a pic of the new wheels on. The shadow on the upper part of the tire kind of hides the clearance. I can now easily slide my entire hand around the wheel. Before I couldn't get my little finger in there.
As I mentioned many times, I am keeping a record of the process ect... involved in this project. If anyone is considering doing this let me know and I will email you the pics and info. It's a lot of work and a lot of money, just so you know.
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Nice work, Mickey. I can't wait to see it in person!
Mikey,
Nice! Glad your on the road again. I appreciate your sharing the process and the journey to wide 5's. Way to go on the bulldog "get er done" attitude.
I also have an older IM and these oldsters are worth restoring and upgrading. Please keep sharing your work with us.
If you could do a post on this for the knowledge tab it would be fantastic.
Cheers
Dave
Nice! Glad your on the road again. I appreciate your sharing the process and the journey to wide 5's. Way to go on the bulldog "get er done" attitude.
I also have an older IM and these oldsters are worth restoring and upgrading. Please keep sharing your work with us.
If you could do a post on this for the knowledge tab it would be fantastic.
Cheers
Dave
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Tell me that THAT isn't sweet ! ! ! ! And those wheel skins really finish it off nicely.
Good job ! ! !
Good job ! ! !
Dave,
I'll be putting a detailed instruction thread together and I'll post it in the "knowledge" tab when I'm finished with the front and the little details left on the rear.
TC,
I just got under the car and took a quick look. It's pretty tight back there. The back of the wheels are alot closer to the spring plates and there is a part of the frame that is less than an inch from the wall of the tire. I'll put it up on a lift monday and grind off whatever isn't needed back there. I'll take some pics so you can see what it looks like back there.
I'll be putting a detailed instruction thread together and I'll post it in the "knowledge" tab when I'm finished with the front and the little details left on the rear.
TC,
I just got under the car and took a quick look. It's pretty tight back there. The back of the wheels are alot closer to the spring plates and there is a part of the frame that is less than an inch from the wall of the tire. I'll put it up on a lift monday and grind off whatever isn't needed back there. I'll take some pics so you can see what it looks like back there.
Excellent work Mickey!
You took on the can o' worms AND prevailed. You even did your "winter project" in the Summer when most of us would never think of having our cars down.
Good for you man!
Ernie
You took on the can o' worms AND prevailed. You even did your "winter project" in the Summer when most of us would never think of having our cars down.
Good for you man!
Ernie
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Thanks Ernie! I'll have to say I'm feeling a little better about this project now that I'm seeing the results. It's still a tough pill to swallow, shelling out all that $ for wide 5's, but in the end I'll get over it.
After all, the objective from the start was to create the car I've always wanted. There is no doubt this will be a long journey with many obstacle ahead, but I hope to be able to show off my "new" car at Carlisle next spring. If all goes well it'll look just like this!
After all, the objective from the start was to create the car I've always wanted. There is no doubt this will be a long journey with many obstacle ahead, but I hope to be able to show off my "new" car at Carlisle next spring. If all goes well it'll look just like this!
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Sweet! Those silver wheels look great; are they Mangels?
Yes they are Ricardo.
I've pretty much biten the bullet and started tearing my car apart to get this project done ASAFP! I'll be doing the little patch jobs on the body this week while I wait for the front wheel/brake fiasco to get resolved. I took off the rocker panel trim today. This week I'll be removing the chrome side trim, fender emblems, and bumper trim. I hope to have all the little holes, dings, and cracks repaired and prepped by weeks end. By then I'm hoping the front wheel conversion parts will be here, or on their way. And after that I'll be expecting my engine and trans to be here. If all goes well I'll have all the mechanical stuff done, and the body prepped and mocked up, by the end of August. That'll give me the rest of the summer to tidy up the little things. And next spring get it ready for new paint and interior work.
I've pretty much biten the bullet and started tearing my car apart to get this project done ASAFP! I'll be doing the little patch jobs on the body this week while I wait for the front wheel/brake fiasco to get resolved. I took off the rocker panel trim today. This week I'll be removing the chrome side trim, fender emblems, and bumper trim. I hope to have all the little holes, dings, and cracks repaired and prepped by weeks end. By then I'm hoping the front wheel conversion parts will be here, or on their way. And after that I'll be expecting my engine and trans to be here. If all goes well I'll have all the mechanical stuff done, and the body prepped and mocked up, by the end of August. That'll give me the rest of the summer to tidy up the little things. And next spring get it ready for new paint and interior work.
After doing all the rear work there was something not quite right on the driver side. I put it up on the lift today and after diassembling the whole set up back there I found that a spacer was missing! Sure emough, right on the work bench there it was, just sitting there. Spacer on, everything is nice nice.
The creative shock spacing I did didn't turn out so well. The shocks are taking a pretty good beating. By that I mean the outer tubes are getting dinged and dented from the poor fitment/alignment of the shock mounts on the new trailing arms. I'll be putting it back up tomorrow to see if I can come up with a plan.
I spoke with the guys at Cip1 today and it looks like I'll have to buy the kit minus rotors. They're out of stock (of course) now so it'll be a couple weeks before I can do the front conversion. I guess that's OK. I think I've got plenty to keep me busy in the meantime.
TC,
The spacing behind the wheel is pretty tight (sorry, I forgot my camera again). I took the grinder and cutting wheel to the snubber plate so most of that is gone. And one of those tabs I refered to in the other thread was a bit too close as well to I ground that down a bit. I'll drive it around tonight and see where I'm at tomorrow.
The creative shock spacing I did didn't turn out so well. The shocks are taking a pretty good beating. By that I mean the outer tubes are getting dinged and dented from the poor fitment/alignment of the shock mounts on the new trailing arms. I'll be putting it back up tomorrow to see if I can come up with a plan.
I spoke with the guys at Cip1 today and it looks like I'll have to buy the kit minus rotors. They're out of stock (of course) now so it'll be a couple weeks before I can do the front conversion. I guess that's OK. I think I've got plenty to keep me busy in the meantime.
TC,
The spacing behind the wheel is pretty tight (sorry, I forgot my camera again). I took the grinder and cutting wheel to the snubber plate so most of that is gone. And one of those tabs I refered to in the other thread was a bit too close as well to I ground that down a bit. I'll drive it around tonight and see where I'm at tomorrow.
mickey, we'd love to see some pictures of the install.
Do you mean the IRS rear spacer?
Do you mean the IRS rear spacer?
Paul,
It was one of the stub axle spacers. Not having it on there was pushing the drum back too far and it was rubbing on the backing plate.
I have some pics in my file. They're not labled but you can see some of the work in there. I haven't done the rear alignment yet (with the new arms the rear wheels seem to be toed in a bit) but everthing seems to be coming along. The only issue left is the shock alignment. The bottom mounts on the new trailing arms are not angled correctly so the shock isn't positioned very well. After driving it over the weekend my shocks are all dinged and dented up (I'll post pics soon). I got to thinking today that it may work better if I can some how drill new holes higher up, or at a different angle, the shock may line up better.
It was one of the stub axle spacers. Not having it on there was pushing the drum back too far and it was rubbing on the backing plate.
I have some pics in my file. They're not labled but you can see some of the work in there. I haven't done the rear alignment yet (with the new arms the rear wheels seem to be toed in a bit) but everthing seems to be coming along. The only issue left is the shock alignment. The bottom mounts on the new trailing arms are not angled correctly so the shock isn't positioned very well. After driving it over the weekend my shocks are all dinged and dented up (I'll post pics soon). I got to thinking today that it may work better if I can some how drill new holes higher up, or at a different angle, the shock may line up better.