The Hurricane Speedster

@Steven Montz

DANG, Steven! That's quite the project you have ahead of you. Looking forward to following your project progress (with pics, of course) and seeing the end result. I'm guessing it will be an awesome ride. As you may already know, this forum is THE source for anything and everything you need to know about these replicas.  Best of luck!

It looks like it might be a CMC.  If you show us the rear grille we can confirm.

As a supporting member, you can download the CMC build manual.

Thank you!

I will need it! Alan Merklin has been a great help so far and I know I'm at the tip of the iceberg but if I can replicate this subframe and get that chassis cut right!... I'll get the rest. I will document my progress! As I said in my post! This will make a good story! I hope to get the local news on board and get some press on this, because 18yrs later! We still talk about that monster hurricane and some good stuff may go over well!

I appreciate the support!

Sincerely;

Steven

Hi Mike!

It is a CMC and Alan has sent me the whole build sheets for it and I've bound it and am reading it all the time.

Thanks!

LA .... Ah ha - a victim of Hurricane Ivan.  So much fun it living in hurricane ally.  Docks are still being rebuilt in NW FL from freak hurricane Sally which wasn't supposed to hit NW FL.  Barges got loose in Pensacola Bay and wiped out 1/2 of the new 3 mile bridge - it just fully opened 2 weeks ago!  Lots of big $$$ lawsuits against bridge builder!

I know it! I've spoken to you before! You are in the Ft. Walton area I believe? I lived in Walton Co. for years! Still have family and property there. It got too crowded! I work for FEMA and have done lots of Hurricane work, That's how I found this car! It was sitting in the bottom of the earth at the mouth of the Mississippi river. The old man gave it to me and now my goal is to bring it back! My sister lives in Gulf breeze! what a mess that was with that bridge B.S. I just got back from working Ian in Naples! My number is 850-217-9337 if you are around when I head that way I'd like to see your car!

You're a far, far, braver man than I...

Brave!!!?? Or crazy!!??😳😂

I did get married!!! ONCE!!😂

@Steven Montz posted:

… if you are around when I head that way I'd like to see your car!

(Insert hilarious comment here)

@Steven Montz posted:

if you are around when I head that way I'd like to see your car!

All of us would like to see his car.

Awesome project. Has anyone on here ever re-fabricated the body steel subframe at home? I think Alan built a car once that had it all done in aluminum. It'd be cool to track down the steel one that guy threw away!

Is there a blueprint drawing for the inner steel structure?

are the CMC ones the same as the IM ?

Thanks

This may seem a little out there, but hear me out- since you're having to replicate the frame anyway, how about doing it in aluminum?  Your Speedster will be unique AND 100? 120? 140? lbs lighter than any other around.  Lighter is not just faster off the line, but faster EVERYWHERE- acceleration, cornering and stopping.  It will be more nimble, a tank of gas will last longer, brakes and tires will last longer- the list is endless!

The early (606?) built IM's would be the same as FF/CMC (since CMC bought IMs tooling in 1978) .  Looks like entire frame is there - with lots of rust holes.  Rusty Tubs used to sell a frame (with fiberglass floor) that looked like CMC one (when they were in ATL).  They still have web site but not sure they exist after their move to Bolder City NV.  $395.

Porsche 356 kit car floor pans JUST LIKE ORIGINALS! (rustytubs.com)

@Steven Montz posted:

I did get married!!! ONCE!!😂

Oh, man, this guy fits right in!

Good for you, quite the project to take on. RESPECT!

When you build the frame, it may be possible to build the longitudinals and front angled pieces out of a not-so-wide steel stock(or aluminum) as the CMC(or whatever brand) sub-frame design makes the car VERY narrow. Think about what seats will fit. I don't know your size but every little bit helps in these little cars.

All I can say is what a challenge you are undertaking.  I have a CMC kit body hanging out above my chassis now... would offer to take measurements for you but my response would be slow as the car is not close at hand.  I can offer this: I made a CAD model of the frame and believe I have it pretty close. I can send you a copy with a free viewer link that you can measure from..    it's only tape measure accurate & taken from one frame, not the spec. but perhaps you could use as 2nd guage against your rusty pattern.

Yes!!! That would be very helpful! Thank you!
you can email me at

flyrite@hotmail.com

sincerely!

steven montz

☮️

@imperial posted:

Is there a blueprint drawing for the inner steel structure?

are the CMC ones the same as the IM ?

Thanks

Waaay in the past (the 1970s) you might be able to say, but there is just no comparison at all during more recent times.  I believe, as Wolfgang says above, that CMC bought some of IM's old tooling, etc. back then.

@ALB posted:

This may seem a little out there, but hear me out- since you're having to replicate the frame anyway, how about doing it in aluminum?  Your Speedster will be unique AND 100? 120? 140? lbs lighter than any other around.  Lighter is not just faster off the line, but faster EVERYWHERE- acceleration, cornering and stopping.  It will be more nimble, a tank of gas will last longer, brakes and tires will last longer- the list is endless!

ALB:

Send him data on where he can drill some holes.

@Panhandle Bob posted:

ALB:

Send him data on where he can drill some holes.

Now, that's funny...and in good fun.

I wonder if Merklin has a “hole drilling template” to make the process go faster?    🤔

SENT--  I'm sure I'm pretty close, but remember your dimensions may vary, check 3x before you rely on any of my dimensions to make any cuts.  I did not fabricate anything from this but as I cut/measured chassis, everything seemed to agree.

@Panhandle Bob posted:

ALB:

Send him data on where he can drill some holes.

Ok, I laughed out loud at that!

And please call me Al, Bob!

I'm actually considering that at this very moment! I'm not sure but I have a feeling the original aluminum body may have been lighter than the replica fiberglass. We build aluminum generator stands down here in LA. for Generac and we have the experience and equipment to do it! I was just thinking about strength and whatnot! It is certainly in the plan! Your thoughts!? Also what may be the cost difference? But I'm not really that worried about that aspect. As far as speed! ... I dont expect to really run this thing that fast! I'm more after the COOL factor! But I hear you for sure!

Originally, the 550 was aluminum. The 356 Speedster was steel.

Pay attention to what Danny P says about thinning down or tapering the longs - the door sills are absurdly wide on pan-based replicas, necessitating running very narrow seats. It wouldn't be that hard to fix, and yet nobody's ever done it.

If you reduce the with of the longitudinals you will reduce the strength.

I think at least one reason for wide sills in a pan-based speedster may be that the sill has to be wide to reach the edge of the pan.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

If you reduce the with of the longitudinals you will reduce the strength.

I think at least one reason for wide sills in a pan-based speedster may be that the sill has to be wide to reach the edge of the pan.

Perhaps...

but I doubt that there was any real engineering in the sub-frame. As you say - I think the longitudinals are made that wide to match the flanges on the pan, and because it gives the uprights in front of the doors an easy/strong weld.

If you look at anybody's purpose-built frame (Beck, IM, etc.), the longitudinals are nowhere near as big or as wide. A Meyers Manx dune buggy doesn't even have a subframe (granted - no doors either, so there's a lot less need, but still) and they're intended to go flying off sand-dunes, etc.

As a complete aside - I wonder how light an outlaw replica could be made without any door openings (pretty light, would be my guess). I'll bet you could do it without anything but the pan and a decently thick body.

Keep in mind that the tunnel of the pan cars is a backbone. In an IM, there isn't even a structure there. The giant longs on CMCs, old IMs, etc. are redundantly strong - at least 2x bigger than they need to be in my mind.

The lack of them is how both Becks and IMs can fit much wider seats than a pan car.

I like your thinking, Stan.

Since most of the strength needed would be in the height of those tubes, the width could be reduced without causing much (if any) trouble, which would also cut a fair amount of weight even if done in steel.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

If you reduce the with of the longitudinals you will reduce the strength.

I think at least one reason for wide sills in a pan-based speedster may be that the sill has to be wide to reach the edge of the pan.

The sills are huge because you're mating Beetle pan halves (which slope inward towards the separate front fenders) to a body (Speedster) which is built more along the lines of a Karmann Ghia with slab sided fenders.   Since Beetle floor pans were much more plentiful and most were in much better shape when Frank Reisner first came up with the Speedster replica concept, they went with what was available.  A Ghia pan would have been a much better choice for more interior room, but they weren't nearly as common in wrecking yards and I don't even know if replacement pan halves were available then.

If 1 was to redesign the replica Speedster (and stay with the VW pan), Ghia pan halves make so much more sense, 914/911 front suspension (would require re-designing the front of the pan but would be oh, so worth it!), aluminum sub frame (come on, you know it needs to be lighter!) and pie cut/widened rear fenders (and wider wheels/tires for better stability- if it's good enough for all those late model Porsches it'll work for us too!) would be a pretty good place to start.  Al

@Stan Galat posted:

As a complete aside - I wonder how light an outlaw replica could be made without any door openings (pretty light, would be my guess). I'll bet you could do it without anything but the pan and a decently thick body.

I think this car went down the strip at about 1000lbs.  Lloyd Moser made a bunch of these back in the 1980’s and 1990’s. He made them in stock 356 length, and stretched versions for drag racing.  Put one on a full tube chassis, all aluminum interior, lights, windshield, probably could keep the weight down to about 1300lbs.

@edsnova, the strength of the tube is mostly in the top and bottom.  The sides hold the top and bottom apart and the strength varies with the distance they are apart.

If you look at an I-beam, the top and bottom flanges are thick and the web that holds them apart is thin.

@Steven Montz posted:

I'm actually considering that at this very moment! I'm not sure but I have a feeling the original aluminum body may have been lighter than the replica fiberglass. We build aluminum generator stands down here in LA. for Generac and we have the experience and equipment to do it! I was just thinking about strength and whatnot! It is certainly in the plan! Your thoughts!? Also what may be the cost difference? But I'm not really that worried about that aspect. As far as speed! ... I dont expect to really run this thing that fast! I'm more after the COOL factor! But I hear you for sure!

Speedster bodies were steel, with the later(?) 4 cam Carrera GT cars being equipped with aluminum doors, decklids and front hoods.  Even with the lighter pieces, I believe the factory 4 cam cars weren't really any lighter than the pushrod engine'd Speedsters (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).   Yeah, building the whole body out of aluminum would be neat, but for something seriously light, the word is                   

                               KEVLAR   

_{(actually, I think the term I'm looking for is carbon fiber but it was first thing in the morning!)}

PS- @LI-Rick- I remember those- there were a few around!

@Michael McKelvey posted:

@edsnova, the strength of the tube is mostly in the top and bottom.  The sides hold the top and bottom apart and the strength varies with the distance they are apart.

If you look at an I-beam, the top and bottom flanges are thick and the web that holds them apart is thin.

Tube and I beam is not the same. Put a 2 x 4 box beam with the long side flat and  support the ends. Now step on the middle. Tell me what happens. Now stand that beam up and do the same.

@LI-Rick posted:

I think this car went down the strip at about 1000lbs.  Lloyd Moser made a bunch of these back in the 1980’s and 1990’s. He made them in stock 356 length, and stretched versions for drag racing.  Put one on a full tube chassis, all aluminum interior, lights, windshield, probably could keep the weight down to about 1300lbs.

Oooooooo.

I'd love to find one.

So you think I should consider fabricating the new subframe for the body structure out of I beam instead of the original box tube? What are your thoughts on aluminum opposed to steel? What about fastening the body to the frame! I assume I would have to weld side plates to the I beam! The original body used rivets! I plan on using riv nuts and bolts like we use on aircraft!

We use these all the time! My preference!

@Steven Montz posted:

So you think I should consider fabricating the new subframe for the body structure out of I beam instead of the original box tube? What are your thoughts on aluminum opposed to steel? What about fastening the body to the frame! I assume I would have to weld side plates to the I beam! The original body used rivets! I plan on using riv nuts and bolts like we use on aircraft!

Absolutely not!

I wasn't suggesting using I-beams for the Speedster. I just thought it would be easier to visualize the strength being in the top and bottom of the I-beam, not the vertical web.