The "intimidator" is born!

Look at this link and read about my newest combo. This engine ran head temps and oil temps equal to a stock 2000cc TIV bus engine, and cooler than many performance TI engines with 10.3:1 static CR.

Thats what a TIV can do, when set up correctly.

www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=56342&sid=41a9df08c776934a562a2dd36838cdc0

BTW, I stand ready to defend myself against the flames of rage that George is bound to throw my way.....Should be fun.

what a beautiful engine, and very impressive numbers.

what will you be putting this engine in?

what would an engine like that with the carbon parts, carbs, etc...go for $$ ?

-ab

George, itsless modified than your 2387....

idles like stock at 1K rpm and look at how flat the torque curve is, thats almost impossible from a TI engine.

Once again, this is a full time daily driver. An engine just like this with a slight cam change and 2mm less stroke just made a 2200 mile cross country trip in 2 days at 85+ MPH rear deck was never opened.

Jake, not bad numbers, but for that size engine not extraordinary, either. Pat Downs will be dyno testing my type 1 2,387cc engine today or Monday so i'll post the numbers here.

Jake, I didn't see anywhere how big that engine is?

see if it makes 184 lb/ft of torque at 3,000 RPM.

My 2332 made 175 lb/ft at 5K that was peak. 231 BHP at 7,700 without the belt.

See if your heads won't touch 350 with a 150BHP load at 5K. See if the oil temps will stay less than 220 when held at 5K for 15 minutes in a 140 degree environment.

Forget the dyno, put them side by side from Wilmington NC to Long Beach. Thats where the TIV shines

George, You were born confused...

Just because the Germans do something,means nothing...They did do the conversions first but I'm proud to have American HP in my dyno cell. Not one part in this engine was German except the OEM case and Crankshaft core.

What I was saying about temps, did not reflect anything about the engine installed in the car.. I just want to see it make that kind of torque at 3K rpm and run as cool with an equal load in a room about the same temp. Guess what, it ain't happening.

Keep in mind, this engine is NOT maxxed out.....it still has 4mm of bore left and 6mm of stroke. Then it will be as modified as your 2387.

George:

It looks like I should have stayed with the 2110 engine instead of the 2160. If I translated your numbers correctly, your 2110 had a max of 152 ft-lbs of Torque, versus my 147; HP max on the 2110 was 171 versus 169 on my 2160.Did you do something special?

I like the Torque on Jake's engine at low RPM. I recognize the difference in displacement, but his engine puts out 42% more Torque at 2000 RPM than my new engine.

With that much torque, you can take off from a standing start in 3rd gear.... No need to push the engine to high RPM for fun.

With a 2613cc TIV I did a 4th gear burnout in my beetle. That engine was only 180BHP

Short on Ego???

I had a good teacher.I read plenty of your posts! Look a few months back in VW trends when they did a story on TIV engine tuners and cars in Europe.

Not ONE touched this type of power, even with a full engine management system.

heck a lonely old fellow in the backwoods of Oregon developed a better cooling system than the "Germans" and he did not even have a degree...just trial and error and 12 years to get it right. It just so happens that it spanked every 911 system hands down.

I have an ego with you, and always will, so get used to it.

I would just like to say thank you to George and Jake for keeping what is obviously a heated discussion, between to differing opinions, civil.

I don't know if it's just this site, but you guys seem to be able to disagree without using 4 letter words.
thanks
-=theron

We are used to disagreeing....I think that even though we disagree ALL THE TIME, we still respect each other.

Comparing your "intimidator" to my old 2,110 tpe 1 engine with 8.5 to 1 compression ratio, your 2,739 is 30% larger in displacement, makes 23% more BHP, and 38% more torque.

A long trip wouldn't be a problem for the 2,110.

When I have the numbers for my 2,387 we'll compare them with your 2,739.
(Message Edited 9/26/2003 2:45:40 PM)

Jake, now you're confusing me. First you point proudly to your dyno numbers, then you say forget the dyno numbers.

The Germans have been running 2.7 liter type 4 engines in VW beetles for many years; so I don't see anything particularly new and different about your "intimidator" type 4 engine.

I don't think we'll have any temperature problems with my 2,387; where I live we don't have 140 degree ambient temperatures.


(Message Edited 9/26/2003 2:54:03 PM)

Well Jake, nobody ever accused you of being short on ego. You might be able to learn a thing or two from those German type 4 guys...

Brian, it's the head/ports/valve size, cam, carburetion, exhaust combo, and state of tune that does it. CB "Super Mag" heads with 42 in/37.5 ex valves, Web Cam 121/125 camshaft, 1 5/8" merged header through 2 1/2" Magnaflow muffler, and dual Weber 48 IDF carburetors. Carbs jetted for 12.6 to 12.7 steady-state A/F ratio (93 octane unleaded) and 32 degrees BTDC total advance.
(Message Edited 9/26/2003 4:21:12 PM)

I've got my pop corn. I've got my beer. I've got this forum. Who could ask for anything more...who could ask...for anything...more?
Ron
Sorry, I was singing off key

You know it sounds like Georges new type one motor will be like driving a rotary engine, high revs, high hp-huge power yet small displacement.

Raby's type four may be like driving a big power mercedes, lots of power right now, can go a hundred mph at only 3K rpms, a true autobahn cruiser.

It sounds like it's aples to oranges however I've got to be frank, I like the torque thing. Nothing beats huge torque in my book. If I have another engine built I want that thing to literally yank my body into the seat when taking off. I'm a firm believer that torque is for the street, hp is for the race course. This is just my preferance, it's not the rule. It's my nickles worth. Sounds like the type four is a good way to go for the street. I really wish I crammed a larger stroke in my 2110, maybe next year I'll go bigger.

J-P

If it ain't torquey enough, call me....LOL

Torque rules in a street car. rolling on the throttle and smoking the tires is an unbelieveable experience with a 4 cylinder engine..

Jean-Paul,
So you're take on this HP v. torque thing is as I was thinkin' earlier in the month; time trials need big HP 'cuz you're on the course drivin' as fast and as smooth as possible, where the auto-cross is the short bursts in-a-heart-beat, point A to point B just a couple gears at best and make 'em dig hard.

Beginning to see the light (and no four letter words Theron)Give me a big darn plate of Raby-torque, oops, I spilled a little GB stout on the floor over here...let me get my 'rabyd' Vintage and mop him up
MM

Hey....you guys won't understand till you go through the gears once or twice...LOL

So who is first?

I got a chance to drive a Viper once, since then torque is where it's at for me. I do have a question though, with a type four the largest stroke size is around 82? If that's correct then you could stroke a type one even larger right? I'm not sure here but doesn't torque come from short rods, long stroke combos?

J-P

Hey Jake, you've got all these guys hot and bothered for a type 4 - better start taking numbers - like at the barber shop when people line up. I'll stick with my 2,387 type 1 until the 2,500cc 911-4 goes into the car. Pat broke the input shaft on CB's dyno last week running his new race motor so I have to wait until he fixes it to get bhp/torque numbers.

The 911-4 will be 76.4mm stroke, 102mm Mahle nicasils (from a big bore racing 964 set) 1991 964 dual-plug heads (extra cooling fins and ceramic exhaust port liners), GE60 cam profile (about the same duration as "S" cams but a little more duration), Manley S/S valves with cryo'd springs and titanium spring retainers, Patrick Racing 9.5 lb. billet flywheel with 225mm clutch, Bosh 009 modified for dual ignition, twin ignition rev limiter, a pair of NOS Italian 48 IDA's (with extra transition port), and 10.5 to 1 static compression 9instead of the stock 11.3). The larger 964 piston oil squirters will be used with the late turbo cam feed oil restrictors, a 930 turbo oil pump, and standard 1980's on-engine oil cooler. We'll have to custom build a header system with primaries about 32" x 1 3/4" diameter.

George........Its gonna suck when one O ring wastes all those High Dollar parts...

I do work on 911 engines also and have seen more than enough cranks with stacked bearings from ONE O RING!

How much for that engine, George?

George,

I was WAY high with my guess then.

Jake, the 1973 2.4 "T" I upgraded to a 2.7 with nicasils, "E" cams, upgraded valve guides, late style hydraulic chain tensioners, and Webers back in 1990 is still running like a bat out of Hell after about 60,000 miles. I think I can manage to put this one together without any problems, but thanks for your concern.

Erik, I'm not keeping track but I imagine somewhere around $15,000 when it's all said and done.
(Message Edited 9/29/2003 11:10:41 AM)

Then it should be around the same price as Jake's 'intimidator'.
Ron

Hmmmm, fifteen g's for an engine. Give me a Subi twin turbo setup and it'll smoke both combos while running the A/C and radio. Got to give Jake credit though, got to be the best in his field so why not make a monster motor, as for George, I'm not sure why he's doing it.

J-P

"Because it's there"

Stan is right, idle curiosity often moves me in new directions. But also over 200 reliable BHP in an engine that will make power to 7,500 RPM and last for 200,000 miles is kind of interesting - the ultimate four cylinder air cooled replica engine. I thought of turboing it to a bit over 300 BHP but I don't want to mess with EFI, engine management systems, and the extra weight.

George
Not to mention the court system.
ed

It is amazing how the cost from a 150hp engine up to a 200hp engine seems to go exponentially larger.....just an observation
(Message Edited 9/30/2003 7:45:33 AM)

After 180 with a TIV, the price on my end doubles.......Thats when things get tight and parts bills get larger.

When I was racing in the 60s, I built a 948 sprite up to about 95 hp and it redlined at 8500. The winners had engines from a guy named Jack Dempsey in Odenton MD who built 125 hp (at the flywheel) engines and most guys had 2 of them. The difference between getting blown away on the straights and not was about $1000 each engine and thats 1965 dollars. Some things don't change.
ed

Jake and George can go on and on about their 4 cylinder, high performance engines, but I'd take the 275 hp Porsche motor that Henry put into a customers car, any day. I bet it cost less, too.
Ron

Did you see that thing in the car Ron? You could probably get a pack of smokes in there with the engine...if you work at it a bit!

This motor madness has to have some parameters (sp) There are some ass-kicking engines out there, but do they belong in a speedster? I've been eyeing the engine in my Subaru Forrester and I can't make heads or tails out of it.

Do I want to go to an event and proudly throw open my hood and see what may as well be a bunch of Detroit plumbing? Is my seat-of-the-pants driving pleasure going to be enhanced by increases in HP when I've recently learned it is torque that drives the boat?

Is Ron the VW-truck guy with the Porsche 911 engine able to drive and enjoy his truck that much more than I do mine with it's silly little 40 HP engine and crashbox tranny? I mean let's face it, even medicated I know that that truck was never meant to exceed 65MPH!

The bragging rights to a genuine Porschee engine aside, is anyone prepared to go the distance to recreate the undercarriage, all four corners, brakes and enhance VW steering in order to handle the pride of the fatherland when it comes to pure Porshce 911-type power?

The replica challenge for those able to build and refine mechanicals is not my calling...I'm stone deaf as a matter of fact when it comes to some of this shit, but I know that my little speedster should have a bridge to its heritage under the hood, whether it is a type1 or a type4... not a six cylinder engine and I'm not sold on this Subie idea yet. Speedsters were supposed to be simple mechanical statements to support the driver's art...

I admire what NASA has done, but I know if it were up to me the launchpad would be the biggesat B-B-Q site on the planet, and hitting the moon, well, we'd have gone left when we shoulda gone right...

More power to ya' boyzzz, but make it right.
MM

Wh