Gordon, good luck with this project.

I must say you have more confidence in these old-school gadgets than I would. If you can't get the pump frausermixter properly adjusted to spritz correctly, here's another old school heater you might consider:

It's somewhat simpler in design, so may be easier to get working. It requires a three-inch flue, but I think that could be routed through the passenger side curtain.

I've often thought, on a chilly, fall afternoon, that nothing would brighten the somewhat spartan interior of a Speedster better than the glow of a nice, warm hearth. Doing some rough calculations, I think you could fit enough seasoned oak on the back shelf to last a few hundred miles - plenty for a day's outing.

What do you think?

I like Mitch's idea!

That little bugger would be nice on my boat

Would the cheap Empi/Facet ******** filter and Danny P trigger work --- or would that just be like lighting a firecracker with a shorter fuse?

No, the cheap EMPI/FACET pump probably wouldn't work for a number of reasons, the biggest being WAY too much volume.  The FACET pump puts out close to a half-gallon per minute at around 3-6 pounds pressure.  What I need is 6.25 cc's per minute at around 1/8'th pound pressure.  The FACET is also self-actuating, meaning that it pulses itself and varies the stroke frequency depending upon pressure demand (it can't push against the line pressure above 6 pounds so it stops).  What I need is a semi-constant pulse frequency (it actually varies about 10%, depending on start-up cycle) delivering a constant stream.

The heater is basically a rudimentary carburetor which expects to see a specific air/fuel mix during the start-up cycle, transitioning to a slightly different mix (richer) on normal run.  That is done by changing the pulse rate to the pump, which has a specific, constant output.  Simple, but ingenious.

Gordon, I am glad you found a functioning late pump. They are available off the Samba sometimes, but are mostly in Europe, so sketchy sometimes. The late pumps are solenoid pumps, each voltage pulse makes the piston slide through a stroke, with a spring return. No other pumps can be substituted!

There is a thermo-switch in the combustion chamber with three terminals on it, common, NC(normally closed), and NO(normally open). Whatever terminal is closed when it is cold is for initial startup. On mine, it was common to NO. Once warm enough, the thermo-switch goes to the other terminal(common to NC) for full-speed operation, The fan motor runs through a diode at a slower speed until warm, then it runs with the full supply voltage. The late pump runs off of points that are geared to the fan motor, so the fuel pump works at low and high speed just like the fan. Simple and ingenious.

I have another heater that needs a new fan motor and a fuel pump, all else is rewired and cleaned up.

I guess I should have stated no other type of pump can be substituted.

All this techno-babble about duty cycles, pressures, and such has me thinking that this system, while likely very ingenious, is not that simple.  Simple would be efficient use of the engine heat (some duct work) and a nichrome wire in your seat cushion.  Now that is simple (and also what I have).  And a whole lot less flammable.  Carrying all this fire around inside a FG Speedster would worry me a lot.

"Carrying all this fire around inside a FG Speedster would worry me a lot."

Yeah, for a while, I used to think that, too.  But then I found that hundreds of thousands of fiberglass tractor-trailer sleeper cabs are using a variation of the same heater in both gasoline and diesel versions and you don't hear about THOSE going up in a ball of flame.  This thing uses 6cc's of fuel per minute - that's the volume of your finger tip (knuckle to fingernail end) and there are several safety circuits in there to detect flame on or off and overheat and have control over the fuel pump so it's actually a very safe system.  The toughest thing to deal with is absolute obsolescence of primary components with no alternatives (according to the manufacturer).  

All I got from Eberspacher Tech Support in Canada was "If you use a new pump on an old system the combustion chamber will just coke up.  You can't use a new pump with an old system because the new pump is driven digitally."   

OK, but I'm driving mine with a digital board, too, and it mimics the operation of the original system.

"Well, if you use the new pump the combustion chamber will coke up."

Doesn't that mean it's running rich?  I should be able to correct that by adjusting fuel flow and then pulse rate, just like your digital board, right?  Has anyone actually tried running a new pump like this on an old system? 

"Well, that system is older than I am and it'll just coke up if you use the new pump on it."

Gotta love "Tech Support"....  

Maybe the tech support person was coked up. ;-)

This could be the expected result of life in a litigious society.  The Legal Department trumps the Tech Support folks by explaining the facts of life in today's society: if we are seen as supporting fixes, repairs and workouts using older equipment, we're going to get sued when a customer has the occasional accident.  Ergo, no support.

I think, for the reasons that Jim suggests, most tech support 'techs' are now told to find the question in the support guide that's closest to the question being asked by the caller and to just read back the matching answer.

Are you sure your pump is plugged into a working outlet?

Have you tried switching it off and restarting it?

Have you installed the latest version of the software?

Did you know you can get more information, 24 hours a day, at our website?

When you've finished reading this post, would you agree to answer a few questions that will assist me in providing more helpful comments in the future?

Jim, Sacto: spot on.

Ugh!  It looks like every company in the world is only interested in their current product line and administering to the "status quo".

My whole life, it seems, is trying to do something 'slightly out of the ordinary' and, because of that, I spend a LOT of time just trying to find stuff.....Stuff that would be ordinary in a particular application, but might work just dandy in MY off-beat application, too.  

I bet Merklin goes though this a lot.  

It sucks, but What'cha'gonna'do??

We appreciate your patience....And did you know that we have a functioning Website?

Patience is what it takes, and a keen/clever/devious mind.  I think you have all of the prerequisites.

Two steps forward, one step back.......

THE PUMP IS WORKING!   I am using a pulse-generator board that Danny P. made for me, to simulate the breaker points usually driven by the later heater fan motor.  I have an earlier heater with no fan breaker points, so we simulated it with a little electronic pulse generator.  It even mimics the fan/pump running slower during startup when the glow plug is heating.  The only trouble is, Danny set the strobe rate without benefit of having an actual pump, so it's running a bit slow.  I can correct that with a different component to select a different pump speed - Hopefully, that will get us in the Ballpark.  

The rest of fuel delivery is working and I'm getting flow to the glow plug and combustion chamber, just not enough...yet!

I revisited the guys at Thermo King and found that my pump, while technically adjustable, has been set at a specific rate and locked by the factory with a big glob of epoxy on the adjuster so THAT option is out - the only way around that is increase the pulse rate or buy a bigger pump (at $225 per).  I think a $1.26 capacitor for the pulse generator is a cost effective alternative.

Two steps forward, one step back.......

I'm following this with great interest, Gordon. Keep us all in the loop.

So Gordon, are you a EE?  Sounds like a little circuit re-design, and you will be there. You must have a silly-scope -- how are you measuring pulse rates?

Great job on that heater.   It reminds me of my conversations with VDO America (Continental) to get a KPH speedometer... they simply play the broken record and tell me .... well the new guages were designed for the USA market in MILES... I say yes but the rest of the WHOLE WORLD is in KPH, you mean your not a world wide company... the product manager says yes but... no business case for a KPH speedometer.  I ask again, and the record plays again as if they are reading from a script.   I say well you do other guages in KPH?  Yes but not this one... and on and on it goes and I am still waiting for a KPH speedometer. Or until enough demand is generated. Sorry to divert your topic... Ray

Ray: Just send it to North Hollywood Speedometer and have them re-screen it. You'll have what you want.

Stan PM"d you to not hijack this discussion.

Ray,

Maybe I'm missing some internet humor in this case, but it seems that Stan was trying to help you, not steal the thread.

Jim, actually it was me that digressed and I was trying not to digress too much from the Heater issue to my issues with the VDO manufacturer. (FYI North Hollywood can screen a new speedo display for sure, but cannot do the innards. ) 

Sorry, Ray, looks like I'm caught in the whirlpool of drift/digression also.  Mea culpa, Gordon et al.

OK, no problem, guys.....After all, I never hijack threads, do I ?

El Frazoo, el mas Frazoo en todo el Mundo, escribió: "So Gordon, are you a EE?  Sounds like a little circuit re-design, and you will be there. You must have a silly-scope -- how are you measuring pulse rates?"

I am not an EE, but I have frequently stayed at Holiday Inn Express establishments over the years.   Really...what little circuit knowledge I have comes from years of hanging around truly gifted circuit designers who were willing to tell me how their stuff worked - most of the time, I could grasp what was going on.  That, and reading amazingly detailed spec sheets from the component manufacturers.   And no, I don't have a scope.  Counted the number of pulses (26) in ten seconds and multiplied by 6.  Very Auld School, here......

I suspect that I have a voltage/current delivery problem developing, too.  I read on a couple of the Samba threads that some heaters won't ignite unless the car is running first, because the glow plug saps a LOT of juice (the heater fan actually runs slightly slower when the glow plug comes on).  My power source is a motorcycle battery I borrowed from my neighbor and a trickle charger.  Might be a tad weak to fully power the glow plug so I may try running a regular 50amp battery charger on what I have, or run some jumper cables over to the Subaru - we'll see.

Still and all......it's entertaining and a challenge to get something old going again.

Oh! and I got the secret 800 number for the "ESPAR Heaters Senior North American Support Tech" and called him yesterday - totally sharp guy who GETS what I'm trying to do and offered some really good tips to get the best fuel delivery.  Some I can do with what I have and one (get a bigger pump for the next size up heater) that costs $220.  Maybe later on that....(although I'm fishing around New England for a potential used, freebie).

Gordon Nichols posted:

 

...And no, I don't have a scope.  Counted the number of pulses (26) in ten seconds and multiplied by 6...

 

Gordon, you just lost half the millennials who were reading this.

Gordon Nichols posted:

 

...Oh! and I got the secret 800 number for the "ESPAR Heaters Senior North American Support Tech"...

If you accomplish nothing else in this project, that is an amazing achievement.

Gordon Nichols posted:

 

 

...Still and all......it's entertaining and a challenge to get something old going again...

 

My wife tells me that all the time.

 Counted the number of pulses (26) in ten seconds and multiplied by 6..

.........Most here have not been in the medical field or they would know it's the same taking a pulse.

El Frazoo: I'm not a degree-carrying EE either. And I never will be. But I do have a ton of electronic experience. I've been tinkering, designing, and building all sorts of electronic gizmos since my Dad put a soldering gun in my hand when I was ten years old.

I built and still own a battery charger/cycler for my model airplane ni-cad batteries. It was simple, load the batteries on discharge until a certain setpoint using voltage comparators, then switch to charge, after a peak voltage obtained, automatically switch to trickle. The hysteresis was the fun part.....I've done automatic window rollup with timers on several cars. Currently I've been playing with a little thing called an Arduino. Look it up. Very powerful, and cheap.

These old heaters are really quite safe if they are in good working order, clean, and have sound wiring and safeties. The combustion chamber is double-walled stainless steel, so they won't rot out. They are VERY well made units. But you need to understand what you are working with, and use caution, common sense, and intelligence.

My car has NO POSSIBLE WAY to use heater boxes. So the 11 pound addition of the Eberspacher makes it possible.

The circuit I built for Gordon is in fact identical to the one I built for myself and have been using for two years! I have an old BN-2 that DOESN'T have points, and am using the later solenoid pump.

Gordon: I run my heaters with jumper cables off my running Audi when on the test stand. More than 12v is basically a requirement to make them fire! Alternatively, you can use the MC battery and run a 10 amp battery charger on it until the glow plug shuts off.

A smaller capacitor should work for you to get the flow right. It's too bad the pumps are sealed and set at 4cc a minute. A 50% increase in frequency should get you close to the 6.5cc a minute mark. Pulse rates are easily figured by formula. I had to adjust my old pump a bit to get the required amount. The pumps are out there, sometimes. The solenoid pumps don't wear out.

I do have a later heater in storage with good points in it, but it needs a new fan motor, as it slows down and stops after ten minutes of running. I think it has a swinging open in the coils of motor wire somewhere.

Make sure the heater is in the same orientation when testing as you will install it in your car, that matters. Keep me posted.

You know, a brand-new Espar B2 heater ("B" for Benzine, or gasoline) and on sale at around $700 - they list around $1,100) would cost about the same, installed, as a pair of 1-1/2"+ heater boxes and put out about 10X the heat - Plus, they could be serviced at almost any Thermo King shop or decent truck stop.  LOTS of truckers and boaters use the Diesel (D2) version.  I think  Jack Crosby is running a Espar B2 in his intercontinental VS.  

It's raining today so I'll try shortening up the 10 ga wires going to the glow plug (they're pretty long right now) and try to maximize voltage to it before I try igniting it again.  I can set up a table right in front of Kathy's Subaru and run jumpers off of that .  Should have the circuit changes made later today - it's almost impossible to find electronic components around here any more (all the local sources are gone) and a 2.2 µf cap was unobtanium so I'm twiddling the resistor side instead. I've got lots of resistors on hand - even a DIP rheostat (!) so I may try that and just "dial in" the speed I want.  It's gonna be tougher to count up to 39 in ten seconds, though - Might have to just go to five seconds instead.   

I looked at my test bed last night in shame - it's not pretty, but it's wired right.  I'm reminded of Bob, one of my prototype techs at Data General - his test beds looked better than the final product.  He eventually retired from high tech and became a Farrier (Horse Shoe guy) in Ocala, Florida.  I bet those shoes are show quality all the time!

"...and try to maximize voltage to it before I try igniting it again.  I can set up a table right in front of Kathy's Subaru and run jumpers off of that ."

When I read that, Gordon, my mind went right to "and if things go wrong we can burn down 2 for the price of one". My apologies, I get my chuckles wherever I can!

Yeah, you may notice that I didn't imply that I would be connecting it to MY car.....

It's Alive!

Frankenheater is ALIVE!

I used the same battery, but put my industrial strength battery charger on it with the 50 amp start-up mode kicked in for the first 20 seconds or so.  Combustion starts in about 10-15 seconds from turn-on and, when it does, it sounds like an itsy-bitsy jet engine (it's cute, actually) and heat comes from both the combustion chamber exhaust as well as the cockpit heat output - hot enough, after 30 seconds or so, to feel like what comes out of the dash on my Nissan Rogue.

Here's a video:

The combustion chamber intake and exhaust are both on the bottom of the case (the exhaust is the long 1-1/2" tube pointing down) while the cockpit air goes in the left end, cold, and out the right end, hot.  The mass of wires on top go to/from the flame detect sensor which manages the glow plug on/off.  I still have to increase the fuel flow rate (it's about 40-50% low, right now) and doing that will increase the cockpit heat output a lot so I'll play with that flow rate til I get heat output I like that won't roast me out.  

I'm not only in the ballpark, but heading for home!

Yippie!!

Next, I have to incorporate a digital climate control to it.  

Two steps forward and running!

Wow! Time to break out the marshmallows!

Now, don't shoot your eye out.

Good on ya, Gordon!

A quick heater update:  

I've modified Danny P's pulse generator to bring the pulse rate up to the spec of the BN2 heater manual, 6.1cc's of fuel per minute.  I've also added a switch so I can now select either low (4cc's/min) or high (6cc's/min) pump output.

Gordon, congrats... that heater looks like the heater I had in my 69 vw, it would nearly burn my knees when I ran it in the winter, unfortunately, keeping the front end on the road and going where you wanted it to go was a challenge without a lot of sand bags in the front and snow tires of course.

Awhile back at least one SOC mounted their BN2 in that void space behind the rear seat fiberglass wall but before the engine firewall (huge unused area there).  They built a fireproof steel box to hold the heater.  An intake could be cut low by rear seat and the output thru the chassis heat channels.  This gets it away from cramped front hood area with gas tank. Even in a steel VW there are additional heat shields.  If you have a fire suppression it would be close run to add another nozzle.  Just idea - trade-offs to either placement.

That's a very inviting space, Greg, and one that I've been thinking of, but the service accessability would, for me, be an issue - I have a Kafer bar running through that space impeding access to the heater (which would have to be waaaay up in there out of reach).  It would be much easier to have it in the trunk with proper metal shields around it, but we'll see - that planning will start next week.  It would be easier with the latest models from Eberspacher - they're roughly 1/2 the size of a BN2!

Of course, if I can't make if fit under the hood, then the rear void is the best alternative.

I'm still frankly amazed at how much heat these things put out.  It's no wonder they used a lot of them in VW buses, and now I understand why the heater in Mrs. Stone's skiing microbus, when I was a kid, would have us opening windows to cool off whenever she turned that thing on.