The new Heater for Pearl thread

i'm super interested in your digital heat control setup.  i have a B2 in my speedy and a BN4 in my westy. 

I was going to say if you think the BN2 puts out heat - look at the 6" diameter Type 2/bus BN4 - its a furnace!  The 411/412's used a BA6 which sits over the transaxle.  It's nice and flat but has complicated wiring and safety relays. Many of the 412's had heat exchanges (with no INTERNAL fins) for preheat and the gas heater supplemented it.  I suspect finding a rust free BA6 (since it was exposed to weather) with all the parts might be difficult --- but that is ideal speedy location.  There is a dash mounted clock work timer for the heaters - you can set to come on before even starting the car.

I wonder if you could mount it in surplus ammo (rocket) box.  They are fire proof and weather tight --- maybe in nose or in front of front wheels?

 

Naaahhhh......I'm not going to THAT extreme!

Personally, I think a BA6 running in a Speedster would put out SO much heat it would drive you out - even in the winter!  Plus, those are quite a bit bigger than a BN2 and harder to place in the vehicle (other than over the transaxle).

Mango:  I'm using an Eberspacher fuel pump from an Airtronic B2/D2 or B4/D4 (same pump, different pulse rates) and it'll pump either gasoline, kerosene or diesel, no problem.  It looks very similar to a BN2 Metering pump, about half as big (and very quiet).  While it has the same metering neck to adjust fuel flow output as the old BN2 metering pump, Eberspacher doesn't trust the field techs to get the flow rates right so they set it at the factory in Germany and then lock the neck in place with Epoxy.  Trying to adjust it will destroy the pump, but the flow rate can be easily adjusted by varying the pulse rate, instead and that is how it's done on the modern heaters.

It's Eberspacher part number is 22 4519 01 and new they're about $200 plus tax, available at Eberspacher dealers - for me in New England, I can go to either "Thermo King" truck reefer dealers or to "Quality Marine Service" for boat applications, both found on the Eberspacher dealer location site.  If you get their pump, ask for the 2-wire harness that goes with it for the connector on the pump.  If you wish, you can scrounge a connector from the engine compartment of a Golf, just poke around....there's a few in there that'll fit.  You might also find a used D2 pump at one of those dealers, especially if they've done an upgrade to a sleeper cab or something.  They usually just toss used stuff, so they might throw you one.

That pump is driven by an Eberspacher computer board that samples a bunch of stuff around the heater and adjusts fuel flow rate by varying the speed that the pump pulses.  It's pretty sophisticated on a D2, but the BN2 only had two speeds:  "normal" speed when it was running, glow plug off, and 10% slower during start-up when the glow plug is "on".  

So Danny Piperato sent me a pump controller that mimics the pulse rate of a BN2 - About 140 pulses/min during start-up, then up to 156 for normal running.  I found that puts out 155-160F output temp of the heater about a minute after ignition (28 degree inlet ambient air temp in my garage).  156 pulses per minute on a D2 pump gives 4cc's of fuel at slightly higher pressure than the BN2 pump, and that seems to provide a bit more heat output.  156 pulses on a later BN2 metering fuel pump (which puts out more per stroke) will give you 6.25cc's/min - Danny says that's driving his heater just fine with a VW BN2 metering pump.

Not satisfied with that heat output on mine, I modified Danny's circuit to bump the pulse rate up to 168/min AND added a "LO/HI" switch.  On "HI", I get 200-225 degrees output temp.  The BN2 manual I have says the heater should be getting 6.25cc's/min.  I did that rate with my pump, and the heat output is around 280-300F (!!!!)  Way too hot, so I bumped the pulse rate down a bit to the 168/min number and it ignites and runs fine on about 5cc's/min of fuel.

So to recap:  I'm running an early BN2 heater that's supposed to have an early fuel pump and 2-stage regulator (neither of which are available).  I've deleted both the pump and regulator and am running a metered D2 pump in their place.  Nothing else has been changed.  Both the early or later fuel jet, squirting into the combustion chamber, should equally work just fine - just attach the fuel line and go.  You could substitute a later BN2 metered pump, run it at 156 pulses per minute and it should be fine.  The circuit below automatically starts the pump on "low" and then shifts to High (within whatever range you choose) when the glow plug kicks out, just like the later BN2.  It also has a selectable range of Low (about 170F output) and High (225F output).

Eberspacher specs a VERY small, hard vinyl, 4 X 1mm (slightly less than 5/64" ID) fuel line from the pump to the heater.  Couple it together with short, rubber fuel hose as couplings at the ends - using the vinyl stuff maintains proper fuel pressure to the heater jet.  Using that fuel line, the pump can be as far as 15 feet from the heater and should be as close as possible to the fuel tank.  Just like the BN2 and VW engine pumps, the D2 pump doesn't suck well but it pushes out the other end great.  And remember - 5cc's/min means about 1 drop per stroke

Here is Danny's modified circuit.  If we get enough interest, we should consider making   a circuit board for it for all four of you guys who might use it   Total component cost should be around $20 bucks.  It drives the pump electronically  - no relay needed.

I mentioned this before, but I put a BA6 in a 77 Westy and it was like a f....... sauna inside. If you are looking for one of these heaters, check the VW junkyards in Canada. They were standard equipment up north. The bus heaters have probably all been picked, but the little guys might still be around. 

 

Well it's been a little cold to work out in the garage lately, but I am getting things done.

There are two, elegantly wired relays that were mounted on the front of the heater test bed, which controlled the heater and fuel pump operation (things like glow plug, fan and fuel pump run time and heater run-on after the fuel pump is stopped).  VW had this spiffy two-in-one-can relay setup that I didn't get on this heater, so I looked at their schematic and re-created them with stuff I had in the parts bin.  While they are vast overkill for the application (both Mil-spec and totally over-rated for power capabilities) they work great.  

Lots of thinking about whether to mount them away from the heater (on a wire harness) or maybe on the heater itself (the outside skin of the heater doesn't get hotter than luke-warm and the wiring would be very short).   I finally decided to use the space vacated by the deletion of the fuel regulator on top of the heater body and came up with a way to securely mount the relays there, making the glow-plug to relay wiring VERY short.

The next thing was, "Where the hell should I mount the heater itself?"

Where, indeed.  

The space in the front trunk, along the sides, as is done in a VW Beetle, doesn't afford enough vertical height to fit the heater in (I need 8-1/2" height and only have 7-3/4") and I'm afraid that it might not ignite if I lay it over too much (it relies on a spray of fuel to squirt down onto the glow plug and ignition screen).  Being real close to the gas tank was a concern, too, although not a show stopper.  The space behind the rear seat, while spacious, is a major PITA to get at because of my Kafer Bar and would make servicing the thing almost impossible - inconvenient at least.  And forget about sitting it on the rear seat - just simply uncouth, that.

So I sat there looking at things for a while and ended up fitting it into the Battery compartment in the nose of the car.  The damn thing fits perfectly and the installation would look similar to this:

That padded 2" X 4" is a support for my spare tire.  The heater is sitting in the well where the battery normally resides and will not interfere with the spare.  The fit is just about perfect and would allow a 90 degree duct on the outlet (left side in the photo) with another bend into a 3" Dia. duct to run the heat up past the gas tank and then down into the cockpit just where the passenger's feet go.  I could pop a screened hole in the body for the inlet (right side of the heater) and run a flow-through system.  I will also install a cover over that little compartment and you'll never know that the heater and battery are under there.  I love it.  

The only problem is finding a replacement battery to fit into the significantly smaller space.  An Optima, if one could place all of the 6 cells in a long line, would work, but that ain't gonna happen.  So what I found are a pair of big, 22 amp/hour Motorcycle batteries that can be run in parallel for 44 amp/hrs of 12V starting power AND will fit, end to end, across the front of the well, right in front of the heater.  This is so promising that I will find a way to make it work.  It might mean that the heater will only start when the engine is running (the glow plug sucks a LOT of power), but then a lot of standard VW sedans have the same problem because their wiring harnesses suck.  This heater will be sitting right next to the battery and have an excellent, short-length wiring harness.  It'll start whenever I need it, for sure.

So that's the update for this week.  Waiting for the paint to dry for the new relay shelf ("Don't you paint that damn thing in MY house!" was heard just before I was banished to spray it outside, and paint dries VERY slowly in a 25F garage).   Then, once that dries I'll get started tomorrow, re-wiring the relay logic that controls this mini-beastie (Danny!  We could make that solid-state, too!)  Once that is done and tested I'll start locating the body holes I'll need for all of the ducting needed to run this thing and see about getting the basic installation done sometime next week, with heat ducting to follow, but that's just flexible, insulated HVAC ducting and should go quickly (famous last words, right?)  

Oh, and I'm also thinking about what it might take to crank out a few more pulse-generator boards for the fuel pump, just in case anybody might be interested either here, or over on the Samba or Shop Talk Forums.

Stay tuned.....

Gordon - Consider the Odyssey 680M that Mike McKelvey and I use.  Ir releases no fumes and can be mounted in any position other than inverted.  It is small and can fit anywhere.  I've had it in my car for 7 or 8 years now and it still spins the engine like a new battery.

The space I have left for a battery is only 16" wide  by 3-3/4" deep by 9" tall.  No one makes a car battery that size so I'll have to be creative.  If a Tesla can work with 200 laptop batteries (or something like that) then I can figure out something.  I have three great battery disributors in the area so I'll drop by and shop by dimensions.  Should be fun - and it looks like a pair of HD motorcycle batteries should work, since my engine never turns over more than 1 turn without catching, so the batteries won't have to crank for long.  I should be all set.

Wanna bet?  I can get you the dimensions of mine when I get home, but I am almost certain it will fit.  you can easily pick it up with one hand.

 UPDATE: I misremembered the battery model.  It is the PC680-M.  Dimensions are:

• L-7.15 in.
• W-3 in.
• H-6.65 in.

Jegs has it (http://www.jegs.com/i/Odyssey+...s/501/PC680/10002/-1) but their price is high.  I have the "M" version that has a metal case, which is recommended for high heat installations as mine is in the engine compartment.

 

DAMN!  That might just fit!  I'll see if my suppliers have it for a decent price, otherwise I'll find one online.  I've already mocked up an Amazon shipping box to the space I have so that'll go with me when visiting vendors locally.

Thanks, Lane....

Hey Gordon.  I have a hold down bracket designed for that battery.  Carey has to relocate my battery and is going his own direction on the battery box.  Let me know if you're interested in it.

Here's a photo of it.

I'm going to refer to Gordon as 'Mister Wizard' from now on.  

Wow!  Those things are really tiny, aren't they?

Tom, thanks.....don't know for sure yet, but will let you know.  I'm probably a week or so away from that stage, right now.

It's free to you Gordon. Just pay shipping to Carey.

> On Jan 22, 2016, at 1:52 PM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:
>

Gordon, Impressive, most impressive. Ray

Kudos, Gordon. Engineering! It's what's for dinner!

So let's see here, I'm going to build a small fire in the battery well of my flammable fiberglass Speedster, right next to my gas tank.  What could possibly go wrong?

Which is not to say that I don't think that Gordon is going to have any trouble here.  He IS Mr. Wizard, and he will nuke this out so well, it will look like it was made for the car.  Which of course it is/was.  it will be 20F out, and he'll be ridin' around w/ the top down in his shirt sleeves.  I can see it now . . .

and ....  barbecuing

Yeah.....Ride around for a while, meet up with some other Speedstah guys for lunch, open the hood and Violá - A nicely cooked rack of ribs sitting there, waiting for you.  Great for tailgating, too (the possibilities are endless).   Two heat settings, too - one for fish and one for chops and steaks.  Great for Enchiladas and Burritos, too, just wrap them in foil - Think of all the Pouch Cooking you can do!

El, the way this thing is built AND the safety controls managing it are so good that I really don't have any worries.  There is a fair amount of logic in the circuitry (all complements of Eberspacher) that:

1.  Turns the glow plug on and off, depending on detected flame and combustion chamber heat;

2.  There's an automatic purging cycle that keeps the combustion fan running to purge gas fumes from the combustion chamber when the heater is turned off;

3.  There's an overtemp switch that kills everything if the output temp gets too high;

4.  There's a "safety switch" that purges the chamber if no flame is detected during the start-up cycle AND that must be manually reset (like a circuit breaker in your house).  Pretty safe.  

I was unaware of some of that stuff, although I suspected it from reading the circuit schematic while setting up the relays - "Hey....This relay is gonna latch for a while.  I wonder what THAT's for?".  What I thought was a bas-ackwards way of wiring the control relays with a strange feedback loop turned out to be a simple, elegant control system that keeps the fan running for a minute, without fuel input, when you turn the heater off and then everything shuts down.  That was one of those "son-of-a-gun!" moments.

Oh, and the combustion chamber is stainless steel, with positive air pressure in the heat exchanger so if the combustion chamber ever leaks, the gas fumes are pushed into the heater exhaust pipe and out of the car, not into the cockpit.

Can't wait to get it going for real.  By that time, the road salt should be washed away a bit and I can get out there for a ride.

wrt the BBQ thing, I think I recall a guy who made a Speedster grill out the back of a rear clip, or something.  It was pretty cool, and one of those things that happens when a nervous mind has too much spare time.  Like I said above, I know you will get it right -- I'm just havin' a little fun here at your expense, while I am resting my snowblower muscles, which have had a work out today. Still coming down, though lightly. I'd say a foot or more, will have oficial measurement in moment.

I recall a "Car Talk" episode when Tom and Ray Magliotti were fielding a call from a couple doing a cross-country trip, and they asked about the best way to cook something on the car engine when on a trip, so they would have a cheap, hot meal ready when they got to where they were going.  

After a lot of conjecturing, laughing, snorting and general mayhem, they decided that probably the best way would be to put the entire meal, say; chicken breasts, roasting vegetables and even a potato or two, along with some nice spices (they actually specified which, but I can't remember) into an aluminum foil pouch and place that pouch on top of the exhaust manifolds to cook it.  If you're cooking white fish, then put the pouch on top of the engine, between the heads and the intake manifold.  That whole thing probably took 15 minutes of blabbering to figure out.

When the couple asked how long they should leave it there to be fully cooked, the boys were at a loss and decided that they would try to get Martha Stewart on the next show for her insight.  (Honestly.....I would just use a grilling thermometer, run the temp probe wire under the hood to the corner of the windshield and plug it into the thermometer so you'll know when the meat/fish is 'done'.)

Then Tom asked the couple what they were driving? and they told him "A Subaru".

Dead air for a few seconds.

"Well, Shoot!" says Ray,   "The exhaust manifolds are on the bottom of those engines - You can't cook anything on those!"

Same goes for a 356 replica, I guess.  My heater will come in handy, I'm sure...

Gordon, you may be on the right track for positioning the heater.

Have you seen this install

on this car?

 

It's a 1962 Carrera 2 (a real one) that sold at Sotheby's a few months ago for $550,000.

Here's the link:

http://tinyurl.com/jqhbkox

The COA shows the heater wasn't installed at the factory, so it might have been a dealer install, or could have been put in much later. Wonder if it still works.

 

I think beetles had it right up over the gaz tank to the side. 

Thanks, guys - Nice shots and yet more stuff to think about.   VW had three or four different placements that I know of, depending on the year, model of car and model of heater (and there were several heaters offered over the years, from Eberspacher and West Bend).  Some mounted down the far driver's side of the trunk, some longitudinally at the top of the trunk up against bulkhead (and right on top of the gas tank!) and some down the passenger side of the trunk.  That placement in the Porsche is pretty much what I'll be doing as it makes the most sense for what I have.  Mine looks similar to the VW silver one above, (is that in a Ghia?) so it's pretty compact.  That particular installation (silver heater, white car) is a "flow-through" set-up, and part of the install was to open up a panel in the trunk and replace the panel with a screen to allow fresh air into the trunk to feed the heater.  Outside air then entered the heater through the round screen on the right and very hot air went out the far end of the heater, through a 90 degree elbow and dumped out more-or-less on the driver's left knee.  The big advantage of a flow-through rather than a circulating version is that the flow-thrus don't make the windows fog up 

Anyway, I moved everything into my office in the house, have deconstructed my heater test bed and moved the control relays onto the heater body, ran very short wires to where-ever and dressed things off nicely to fit under the plastic top cover.  I've gone from this:

To this:  Just a couple more wires to add and it'll be ready to re-test in its final form.

 

And just to show that I don't always work in a neatly cleaned up space, here's the desk after the bomb went off of the heater showing up:

That little round silver thingie on the right side of the desk is the Unobtanium fuel regulator that I deleted and the two relays fit right into the spot it took up.It'll be nice to get this part done and get my desk back....But it IS nice and warm there - unlike my under 30 degree garage.

 

I love the smell of solder in the morning.

 

Looks like Gordo spent a part of his early career dicking around with electronics.  I too learned a lot of useful skills down in the lab where I worked dreaming up experiments to validate all the clever theories I was  espousong at the time.  and yes, soldering was one of them.  Never quite enjoyed the smell of melted rosin, however. But you can't do the deed without it.  Gordon: I do believe you will giterdone, by Jove.

Tom Blankinship!

I'll take you up on your offer of the Odyssey Battery hold down bracket.  Should work well for me.

I've emailed Carey.

Thanks!  Gordon

Great!

> On Jan 25, 2016, at 2:57 PM, SpeedsterOwners.com <**************> wrote:
>

Update time!

Well, sports fans...It's currently about 18F in my shop (2pm), so not much is happening, but here's what I've got.

Decided to place the heater in the nose where the Battery well is on a CMC.  Thanks to Mitch for the photo of a Porsche coupe heater install - that helped a lOT!  

This is the "Before" photo.  Looks plenty roomy, except for that honkin' battery in there.  What I want to do is mount the heater across that space towards the rear, and then run two air ducts/tubes up along each side to the rear corners of the trunk.  The driver's side will have to detour around the brake reservoir, but that's easy.  Then they'll enter the cockpit under the dash, just above people's outboard knees.   I'll install  swiveling, 45 degree outputs going through the trunk floor - those are from a whole-house vacuum system (Home Depot) and allow me to direct the air.

So that's where it's going, but that big Honkin' battery has got to go, so I took Lane and Tom's suggestion and got me a George Jetson, 'el Corredor' battery from Odyssey (even got me the "fleet discount" after the counter guy heard the heater story).  And this is the comparo to my original battery - On a good night, I can dial in "The Wolfman" on KRLA!!  

Wicked Skinny, huh? (and thanks for the mounting bracket, Tom!!!)

So, using 'el Corredor' in there, everything fits with room for heat shields:

BUT.....(there's always a "but", ya know?)......There's precious little room in there for any ducting.  VW uses a metal output duct that turns 90 degrees down from the heater and outputs in the cockpit right over the driver's outside knee.  I don't have a prayer of getting a 90 degree tubing bend in there, so I had to be creative and fab'd up a small output plenum to fit the available space of 2" at the bottom of the heater output, tapering up to much more at the top (the well is tapered - thank you CMC...   &nbsp  It has to be taller than the heater by several inches to allow some couplings for the air duct tubes to connect to.

That part is made from Kraft Paper and I added tabs along some of the edges to make it so I can pop-rivet it together.  When you remove the tape and open it up it becomes the template for the sheet metal version.  It has to be made of metal because the output temp of the heater can exceed 250F.  I'll also add some insulation between it and the body, just to be safe.  If you look closely in the last photo, there is a mocked-up white PVC tube entering from the rear left, and a black, knobby-looking tube entering from the right into the plenum and that's where the output ducts will go.  They are 2" dia. spiral-wound aluminum duct, like for a HD clothes dryer output, only smaller.  They can take the heat and are super-flexible.  That stuff arrived yesterday ("Yay!  The new Ducting is here!!") and I found an HVAC sheetmetal place near here that can make up any couplers I need for the plenum box to attach the duct hoses and the heater.  They could probably do the box, too, but a friend runs a sign-making business in town and has all of the tools (and metal) I need to fab the box so I'll save a bit there.

I've also made up an insulated sleeve for the combustion chamber exhaust pipe so I can direct that straight down through the bottom of the well, under the heater, to the underside of the well and protect the fiberglass from scorching where it goes through.  It's like a mini-piece of 2" insulated wood-stove pipe - pretty cute.  I may run some silicon between it and the fiberglass through the opening (think silicon muffin tray re-purposed) just to seal everything up.

So that's it for this week.  Inside, I'll be making up a new dash knob to match my existing knobs but one with a tiny, red lens (looks suspiciously like a Lego piece) in the middle of the knob for the bulb that comes on with the glow plug, and also set things up for hi/lo operation.  I also still need a box to house my pulse generator, but that's easy, too.  Everything is easy if you take small steps.

Things are going slow as sludge because of the cold outside, but at least they're moving....

Awesome work!!

Very nice, Gordon! But--serious question--what are you going to do with all that extra space in front of your heater on each side of that tiny new battery?

Perhaps a couple of fire extinguishers?

Fire!!?  Did someone say fire??  We have gasoline powered combustion going on in the FG battery well -- what could possibly go wrong??  [Easy Gordo, just yankin' your chain again.  You have the Mad Skilz, and this little project is looking good.  Be sure to add up all the pennies you spend too, and include your time at a nickle/hour -- the going rate over there at Five Cent Racing, as I hear it.]

Aren't you going to need a really long 240V extension cord for that heater?

Nope - These little heaters are powered by.....

A Flux Capacitor!!

Ed asked: "what are you going to do with all that extra space in front of your heater on each side of that tiny new battery?" and Ed surmised it would hold a fire suppression tank - Well Done!  A Safecraft RS5 with three outlets:  One on the heater and two directed at the carbs.  The canister should fit right in there beside the "el Corredor"  battery.  I can fit a bottle of that California Shiner-upper-stuff on the other side of the battery (or toast a Subway sandwich with the heater on, right?)

https://www.safecraft.com/prod...ster_cat=motorsports

 

I have one,   well sorta~

Don't put your finger in there when it's running!!

Your finger will end up in 1955, but the rest of you stays put.

Looking at that photo, though........

What I could have done with that setup when I built a 400 watt Tesla Coil in High School!!!!!  Fire that puppy up and get three, constant arcs.  All it would need is a vertical wire in the middle as a ground/attractor and it would look friggin AWESOME!

I LOVE the smell of Ozone in the morning!!