The Norse Porsche - 5 speed

Have you written Kevin off as a builder?

My 4 speed xmission surely has to be similar to what I would have with a 5 speed.  The gears are spread out perfectly and my 4th is about as high as a 5 would be.  

 

Just sayin'.

Talk with @Anthony

Gene Berg Ent. makes the only 5 speed conversion kit for the VW type 1 transaxle. Rancho (or any other trans builder) would be buying the stuff from Berg as well, so there's not really any other options here, other than a Porsche 901 series 5 speed. The 901 is awkward to shift with the Porsche syncros and dog-leg 1-2 shift. It's a harder install, as mounts have to be made, and gearing is not always optimal for a VW engine.

I haven't seen one, but I'm of the understanding that installing a Subaru trans is more involved than installing a 901, it's heavier than the VW or 901 and I don't think the gear spacing is suited to the aircooled engine. 

Your first gearset example would be the most practical for all around driving; Terry Nuckels uses that combo and loves it, especially in the California mountains. The only thing I might change is lengthen the 3-4 spacing by using a 1.12 in 4th, and (depending on your highway speeds) maybe put a .82 in 5th spot. Gearset #2 (with the 4.125 r&p) would be a blast if you absolutely had to be the fastest off the line (and away from the stoplight) and will get you a wicked reputation with the faster cars in town, but it comes at the expense of the longer 3-4 and 4-5 spacing, which is where you will spend so much more of your time.

Take a look at the link below- in your first example I substituted the 1.12 for 4th and gearset 2 I used 1.09 in 4th and put the 0.82 in 5th. Any of these combinations will work and be a blast to drive.  Al

http://calc.teammfactory.com/i...26+2&trannytype=

crhemi (Bill) poboiinhawaii posted:

Have you written Kevin off as a builder?

Nobody is written off yet,  but I need a combo of builders / suppliers that know each other and not to far away from one another. Do PM me for input on this.

Thanks for sharing Jack and Art. I'm going for a 5-speed. Decision is made : )

I love my 915 five speed in my Speedster.  It's just nice to have that fifth gear, but it depends on where and how you drive.

Bob says "it's nice to have that 5th gear".  I wonder if your 5th is any higher than my 4th which is .821 with a 4.120 4th gear and 130 hp at the wheels to provide enough power to make it work through a 4.120 R&P.  The tire size is 25" tall.

At just 3500 rpm I am doing 77 mph.  Red line for my engine is 6,500 at which point if I had the nerve would be a speed of 143 mph which is what it dynoed.  It truly is an awesome combo and perfect for our high-speed (75-85) highway driving.

Lawsh--this is an interesting subject so please do share your experience with us as you proceed with your project and we'd be interested in some comparative numbers. Best of success with it.

Al explained this to me in a previous post but it did not become obvious until i got my self wet in one of those plastic tubs couple of weeks ago. This is of course a matter of taste an style but for me (and what Al wrote) Its not about that higher gear. Its about having more to play with between 2nd and 5th. Being able to respond to the surroundings, gearing down before a turn, powering out. That equals more shifting which for me in turn equals more fun. So for me its a 5-speed.

5-speeders:  Your ratios and setups are very welcome.

Jack Crosby posted:

Bob says "it's nice to have that 5th gear".  I wonder if your 5th is any higher than my 4th which is .821 with a 4.120 4th gear and 130 hp at the wheels to provide enough power to make it work through a 4.120 R&P.  The tire size is 25" tall.

At just 3500 rpm I am doing 77 mph.  Red line for my engine is 6,500 at which point if I had the nerve would be a speed of 143 mph which is what it dynoed.  It truly is an awesome combo and perfect for our high-speed (75-85) highway driving.

It's not the top speed, but the shorter spacing (and quicker acceleration) between the gears that gives the 5 speed the advantage. Your 4.125/.82 is actually a little longer than 3.88/.89; it's what you've given up with the wider gear spacing to get there. I'm not saying what you have doesn't work, because you're driving it and are happy, but shortening up the spacing through the gears AND having a 5th that is as long (or slightly longer) than stock 4th just makes it that much more fun!  (insert evil, diabolical laugh here) 

Yoda out (for now but back you know I will be, especially when talking about close ratio gears and 5 speeds yes!)

Jack:

I really don't know what the ratios are for a Porsche 915 transmission.  I just know I can get to 60 mph in second gear  :-)

Seriously, I only use 5th gear when on major highways, as 4th gives me enough flexibility to handle any speed limit we have here.  Of course, my engine is a little larger than most, and that sort of makes my car not a good comparison.  Regardless, I had five gears with my 2332c.c. car previously, and it was nice.

5th is a great overdrive cruising gear that does not stress the engine too much. 

In the end, it's whatever makes a car special to its owner, and that's the important thing.  We all have different driving habits, too. 

It's interesting that we've come to live in a world where the more powerful and performance-oriented the vehicle, the more gears it seems to have. In a bit of irony-- a Hellcat Challenger has 8 forward gears. Given it's crazy torque-curve, it could easily get away with a 2 speed powerglide. I had a BMW 540i with a 6-speed manual once. Same deal. I could easily start off in 4th gear, and never really lug the engine.

A VW Type 1 (on the other hand) makes power in a much more narrow band, and more gears keeps a guy in that powerband more of the time. It's hard to find a downside, except for the cost. There are a lot of instances when a guy is just "between gears" with four forward gears.

It matters less to the Type 4, Subaru, and Porsche 6 guys, as the engines in their vehicles have a broader, more accessible powerband. If I had a 2.5L, water-cooled, OHC engine, or a nice RAT Type 4-- I'd think 4 was adequate as well.

 

As always, Stan is the voice of reason and wisdom. 

I went from a 2054cc Type 1 to a 2.5L Suby and echoing what Stan said, I'm much happier with the 4-speed now. I've never felt the need for a 5th gear with either engine. First on the Suby is a little taller (IIRC) and 3rd is a nice all around town gear. Before, I felt trapped between second and third in my neighborhood and always down shifted into 2nd when turning through an intersection. Now, I can cruise through my neighborhood making less noise and comfortably round a corner in 3rd . I'm also prone to shifting to 4th over 45 because I'm less concerned about lugging the engine.
>

I drive Bob's old 901 5speed and essentially it was very similar to my 3:44 4 spd doing 70mph @3100rpm 2100cc

FYI I have a 2.5L subie mated to a subarugears tranny and it is a completely different animal but Stan and others have stated correctly that four speeds become close ratio and fifth is overdrive for cruising

 Depending what ratio you choose it could be more or less interesting

  The more the engine is larger and powerful is also an issue 

 Given the rather low production of these cars it is often difficult to try every combination of gearing engine and transmission before you cut the check or write the check 

 Every engine transmission platform as it's issues and learning curve for maintenance and reliability 

 I have had issues with Subaru gears I had to sort out

I certainly don't miss the carbs at all

Please, what "issues" with the Subaru gears?

Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:

...It's interesting that we've come to live in a world where the more powerful and performance-oriented the vehicle, the more gears it seems to have. In a bit of irony-- a Hellcat Challenger has 8 forward gears. Given it's crazy torque-curve, it could easily get away with a 2 speed powerglide....

 

 

Methinks this has more to do with emissions and fuel economy than anything else.

With the computer doing the shifting, engineers can guarantee management a car will make the right numbers no matter what the nut behind the wheel does.

Look how well that worked out for VW.

 

ME thinks it has more to do with marketing.

Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:

It's interesting that we've come to live in a world where the more powerful and performance-oriented the vehicle, the more gears it seems to have. In a bit of irony-- a Hellcat Challenger has 8 forward gears. Given it's crazy torque-curve, it could easily get away with a 2 speed powerglide. I had a BMW 540i with a 6-speed manual once. Same deal. I could easily start off in 4th gear, and never really lug the engine.

A VW Type 1 (on the other hand) makes power in a much more narrow band, and more gears keeps a guy in that powerband more of the time. It's hard to find a downside, except for the cost. There are a lot of instances when a guy is just "between gears" with four forward gears.

It matters less to the Type 4, Subaru, and Porsche 6 guys, as the engines in their vehicles have a broader, more accessible powerband. If I had a 2.5L, water-cooled, OHC engine, or a nice RAT Type 4-- I'd think 4 was adequate as well.

 

Stan might even think a 2.2 N/A was OK with just 4 gears, depending on what kind of cams he had in it, compression ratio, injectors and ECU re-map. Just thinking out-loud here.

But really, who cares? This thread is about LAWSH's 5-speed.

Good on ya, LAWSH. 5 speeds are never worse than 4.

HEY!!!!         

I bet Ted might have a few words on this topic.... 

TRP?    lets have a few words?

And try to keep it under 2 paragraphs... PLEASE!!!!

Here's my  8 cents (due to inflation) 

Power Plant, Rim and Tire size and transmission all work in concert together. 

You must know exactly what your going to use regarding all three components in order to figure out the gear ratios and transmission type (4 or 5 speed)..  on top of all this you really have to know what you want out of the car!!  Tailor it to suit your driving style wants and needs.. 

I can explain further if you want to give me a call..    PM me for my number.... 

I'd post it here but....  I'm sure if  Stan or Al. B got a hold of it they would keep me on the line for hours (IE: just look at the books they write on this forum)... lol lol lol 

Tebs 

Come on Tebs; I'll bet we'd have some wonderful chats! I'll pm my number so you can call me...

And look- I stayed under 2 paragraphs!

OK  AL..............   As long as you don't say "EY"   at the end of every sentence..

Gene Berg Ent 2 to 3 months? That is laughable. Expect 6 months from the time they start before you get your parts. Once you get your main shaft and pinion you will need a builder. When you go to get one built do your homework and know what you want. Don't be afraid to ask questions of your builder. Make sure the two of you are going to be able to get along and work together.  Expect to wait another 12 to 16 weeks before you see your finished gearbox.  Some of the good builders take time because they have a long queue. If their queue seems too good to be true there is a reason. Honestly? If you are going to have one built expect 12 months from start to finish before its in your car.  The other route is buying one from Rancho or Wright. Less hassle. 

It's worth saying twice... there are a lot of transmission builders out there. A few of them might need to be on mood stabilizing medications. Find the best builder you can, but make sure the two of you are on the same page.  I don't care if the builder is the best builder on the planet, if you two aren't on the same page it will ruin the experience.  

Feel free to PM me and I can share more.

Ted

Teby,

By my count, your last post had 9 paragraphs, exceeding your personal limit by 7. Cummon' man-- get with the program! 

In a modern car you often can turn in the mid 2k's and get great mileage and a quiet ride. If your new to this 356 experience  an A/Cooled engine still has to turn 3K so you still get the same engine sound level even if at times you would like an extra gear when your in 4th and it feels like you want to quiet it down  ... You kind of feel like you would like a 5 speed.... Being still stuck at 3K for sound level means that a 5 will help you and give you more fun rowing and help to keep you in the Narrow power band of a type I but the db's are still the same.  

 

Ah. Such a nice morning routine this has become. Wake up, handbrew some coffee while reading mails from speedsterowners generated by the comments made by you madmen. Good stuff. 

@Teby S 2210Cc 140hp + 16" alloy + 5speed. What I want? spirited driving on winding roads. Enough input to ideate ratios? PMed

@TRP 5-speed-nazi! LMAO!! PMed

Likely WAY off the mark here, as I really have nothing to offer wrt what gears and how many to use.  But i do marvel at the new technology as exemplified by the new Toyota I rented out of town the other day.  Most likely a four-banger of some description, likely 2.0 l. I was rolling down the interstate at about 75 mph and I swear to you the engine was turning less than 2K.  ECUs, variable valve timing and who knows how many gears in that tranny all contrive to let this happen.  Our '60s vintage air cooled VW engines know nothing about all of this.  Furthermore, I rode that car for only about three hours or so, for maybe 150 miles.  I topped the gas tank at the end for $8.00.

Subaru 2.5L, making approximately 175HP, with a pretty wide torque band and a Subaru 5-speed manual transmission:

1st gear 3.166

2nd gear 1.882

3rd gear 1.296

4th gear 0.972

5th gear 0.738

With a 3.9 rear end

It's the drive train from a 2009 Subaru Legacy GT donor.

ABS, Traction Control, rev limiter (set at 6K)... basically,  everything from the engine to the hubs is Subaru except it is rear wheel drive only.

Ok, talked to Dave at Rancho and he could put together a pro street with a 5-speed kit for me if I supplied the kit. He wont order it for me so I have to provide them with everything. 

How would I order the kit from Berg? I understand he needs parts of the transmission to build the kit from? Or can he build the kit from scratch?

Feasible? 

Ask Dave what constitutes a complete kit. Wouldn't he be the guy to answer your question about what parts he needs? Should be able to provide you a laundry list of stuff for you to acquire.

Don't make this harder than it should be. Ask Dave if they can build a 5-speed in your preferred ratios and let them supply the parts.

Alternately, Clyde Berg builds transaxles and there is zero conflict between supplier and builder in that circumstance.

Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:

Don't make this harder than it should be. Ask Dave if they can build a 5-speed in your preferred ratios and let them supply the parts.

Alternately, Clyde Berg builds transaxles and there is zero conflict between supplier and builder in that circumstance.

I am stumbling my way through this so you'll have to bare with me man. He specifically  said that I had to supply all the parts and ship them to him. Then he could build it. Something Im missing? Maybe Im asking the wrong questions. You mean Berg enterprises could build the whole thing? Im all ears.

I know a guy that's got all the parts siting on a shelf in his garage

Thats quality teasing right thur!

any mechanics I deal with will not use  supplied parts..makes sense to me