The Norse Porsche - Brakes

I'm assuming you would be using standard gearing with the 3.88 R&P Rancho.  I've got similar hp (145) with a 3.88.  I'm currently at 3000 rpms at 60mph (about 100 kmph).  You should really go with a 3.44 R&P.  You may lose a tiny amount of quickness but the taller gearing will give you more usable power and better interstate cruising.  Love the outlaw look but lowering the car will compromise ride quality.  Just my 2 cents.

Coolstop breaks by CoolRydes Customs!

Adjustable beam and spring plates...

It takes a fair bit to overpower Karmann Ghia discs and either type 3 drums or solid rear discs in a relatively lightweight Speedster; with regular street and highway driving and the odd little "spirited fun" I don't think you'll ever find their limitations. Also, you have to think of how much rubber the car will have on the ground; for example, with 165's (and even maybe 185's? If someone can add some experience here, please chime in) all around, upgrading the brakes much past this point is pretty much useless. There isn't enough tire on the ground to take advantage of all the stopping force that bigger brakes can develop, and tires will slide way before the brakes are anywhere near their limits. Performance pads, and maybe running brake fluid with a higher boiling point will make more of a difference (and be more effective) at this point.

That said, if you do manage to get more tire under the car (say 195's in front and 205's in back), then vented discs (with bigger pads) in front and something more effective in the back could be used. When looking at brakes, note that some rear disc kits (Empi and Airkeweld come to mind) have not just been "bolt them on and go" but have had problems that needed machining to correct them. There have been guys on the Samba that after re-machining caliper mounts and trueing up hubs, still haven't been totally satisfied with these kits. I've never seen any of the Coolstop brake kits, but Kevin's stuff appears to be well made and fit properly. There are a couple of places that adapt  factory 924 and 944 stuff as well, and it's a way to go. But, being original equipment Porsche, even used its expensive (but nice stuff- picture me drooling here!).

You may be able to save some money here. Once upon a time (35? years ago) I ran a 14 second beetle with Karmann Ghia discs and type 3 rear drums (135's- evil little pieces of rubber! and 185/70's) and even when pushed hard (parking lot slaloming, roaring around town and driving in the mountains) never found their limits (the 135's would slide before the discs's limits were met). I had the pieces to put 914 discs on the back, but never got around to it, as I never needed to.

I'm not saying that KG and basic rear discs are all you'll ever need, but just think about it and know what you really want before spending big money on brakes. Al

PS- I know people love the idea of adjustable rear springplates, but once you put them on and get ride height set, you'll never touch them again, so why deal with the extra weight (they're really heavy), and the block where the adjustment screw is limits how inboard you can go with the tire/wheel, so I don't see the point. Save your money here as well. I do have a set under the bench if you really want them...

I just noticed you're talking about going 5x205 (wide 5) so I don't know how much above applies to you. And I forgot- Welcome To The Madness! Lars...Al

 

Good point on spring plates but make sure it's exactly how you want it before it leaves the shop cause it's a pain (and dangerous) to have to re-due them if your not familiar with the process.

You will need to learn some wrenching on these cars as it will save you money in the long run.

Have you ever driven a speedster yet?

 

This Coupe Pushes All My Buttons!

Lars,

You mentioned two things that, to me, seem diametrically opposed; spirited driving and the drop spindles. I've always considered that to be two different types of cars. A car that is set up for spirited driving would need a different suspension altogether than one set up for rolling low. Dropping the car shortens the suspension to the point where spirited driving may cause everything to bottom out repeatedly or tires to rub inside the already tight fender wheels and several other things.

There may be a fine line between the two and you may have to find it. The photo of the black coupe may have had some body modifications, such as filling in the rear wheel well, that make it look lower than it is as it looks like quite the performer. Mango's car is low and it sits on air bags so if Mango wants to driving with a little more spirit he can raise the car so it handles differently. I may be wrong but I believe a car on bags isn't stiff enough to drive that spiritedly. The grey outlaw looks awesome and probably handles very well but it doesn't look to me like it was lowered. El Guapo's car has drop spindles but Jim's a cruiser mostly although he may get on it a little. Jim. what say you?

Thus the adjustable beam and spring plates for fine tuning your ride height or changing tire sizes.

2 1/2" drop spindles don't necessarily degrade handling, Robert; it really depends on how the rest of the suspension is set up. If just lowered the amount of the offset of the spindles (with the back lowered the same amount), with good shocks, tires and anti-sway bars the car will handle like it's on rails, and can still ride fairly nicely as the suspension still has full (or close to full) travel. 

And yes, a car can be so low that (as you said) "spirited driving may cause everything to bottom out repeatedly or tires to rub inside the already tight fender wheels" but it doesn't have to be.

ALB posted:

Welcome To The Madness! Lars...Al

Thanks Al!

Lots to learn, lots to learn. Ok, its not going to be crazy low. Like the attached. I like it when the wheel arch is tangent with the rear rim. 

The wheels on the button-pusher (which is Rod Emorys 1958 special, check this video out) are 16 x 5,5 Billet wheels whith195/60/16 tyres. Those would be awesome. Adequate rubber?

Regarding needs. Since I live in the city centre its going to be streets and highways to get to the winding roads for the odd spirited driving Al. Its hard to say how spirited, as I have yet to be tempted in a speedster Bill. Just had a seat in one with the engine running inside a porsche show room, which felt pretty tempting. Planning on heading over to LA and visit VS this autumn and hopefully drive one or two.

Okydoke. Some news from VS. They say they can only fit 15 X 5,5 wheels with 185/65/15 tires. So no 16" for me with 195s. Cant have it all on the first go eh? (or cant I) Rear discs are 400$ ekstra. I wonder what brand he's using. Any spirited VS dudes out there happy with theirs?

Hmmm.. contemplating 5 speed transmission. Utopia in a VS build? He has never done it before. Is that book worth opening or shall it be closed post haste?

 

Lars, I had VS install four-wheel discs on my new build and I'd recommend you NOT do that.

The fronts have been fine, but the rears were not.

To begin with, they were installed so that the e-brake return springs didn't clear the car's frame (on both sides), severely limiting the suspension travel. VS referred me to their supplier (So Cal Imports) who couldn't offer an alternative with better clearance. I ended up having to have the frame clearanced by a local VW mechanic.

The other problem was a horrendously loud moaning vibration once the brakes warmed up. I was able to mostly get rid of this by sourcing other pads myself (and then modifying those), but VS wasn't much help.

This may not happen on your new VS build, as VS is always juggling suppliers, but then again it might. And the extensive galactic VS service network might be spread a bit thin in your particular corner of Norway. If you can get your car back to VS for service issues in the first months after purchase, they are pretty good about fixing things - even things that it could be argued shouldn't be wrong in the first place. Farther afield, support can be spotty.

I'd recommend having VS install the stock VW rear drums and then having a local shop put together and install a rear disc package for you afterwards from parts the installer will stand behind and that are easy to obtain where you are.

VS is known for its rapid assembly of new cars. This has its advantages and disadvantages. You get your new car very quickly after your check clears. But sometimes they ship it even before it's actually finished.

 

Thanks for the heads up Sacto Mitch. Hmm.. I dont want no builder rushing through my car. I dont need a car built quickly, I want a car built with care. Happy to pay for that. Im at least spending 2-3 weeks in California after I pick it up to drive and adjust, but not months though. Any suggestions for local shops you can vouch for? Anything else I should offload from VS so they can do concentrate on what they are good at?

The only people I would buy a pan-based Speedster from (who are regular sellers) is Troy Sloan in CA and Alan Merklin in PA. Theron (owner of this site) is also selling some. You can buy well-sorted cars from any of them.
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x2 what Tom says above.

I'd rather go with a well proven used Speedster that has quality, than a new one that is going to give me problems.

 

I'd avoid the VS rear camber compensator - which turns out to be the EMPI thing that sort of looks like a camber compensator without doing anything useful.

Also, the remote oil cooler. VS mounts that in a location that is very convenient for them, but which is probably the worst place for cooling purposes. It might work OK, though, in the middle of winter in Norway. Have someone who has YOUR best interest at heart install your oil cooler.

Please don't ask any more questions today, Lars. I'm trying very hard to be a pleasant person with a cheerful, positive outlook on life, and thinking about some of the things that VS did on my car brings out the worst in me.

If you want to ask about headlight switches and relays, please save those questions until I've scheduled another session with my therapist.

 

Nobody going to speak up for Carey and Special Edition?  I believe I'd go there first with my ideas for a new build.  Not that I need to, as I have a car.  Said car is not pan based, but is sort of a hybrid with rear ~1/3 from a '72 Beetle pan and the rest purpose-built tube frame.  Has a 2332 engine, Pro-Street tranny, turns about 60 MPH at 3000 in 4th, IRS, HD sway bars front and back, corners flat as a pancake, is quick off the line and has four wheel discs that work splendidly.  Would never consider anything else.  Slotted disks seem extreme, but whatever floats your boat.  You going to race??

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

Please don't ask any more questions today, Lars. I'm trying very hard to be a pleasant person with a cheerful, positive outlook on life, and thinking about some of the things that VS did on my car brings out the worst in me.

Hahaa. No prob! I need to get my ass to bed anyway. Promise to portion stuff out, but its the madnessss i tells you!

El Frazoo posted:

Nobody going to speak up for Carey and Special Edition?  I believe I'd go there first with my ideas for a new build.  Not that I need to, as I have a car.  Said car is not pan based, but is sort of a hybrid with rear ~1/3 from a '72 Beetle pan and the rest purpose-built tube frame.  Has a 2332 engine, Pro-Street tranny, turns about 60 MPH at 3000 in 4th, IRS, HD sway bars front and back, corners flat as a pancake, is quick off the line and has four wheel discs that work splendidly.  Would never consider anything else.  Slotted disks seem extreme, but whatever floats your boat.  You going to race??

Yes! I would love that to work. Would they do that if I supply the part of the VW with the chassis number? I actually went to Kevin first after initial research but since he is not pan based... You're more or less describing my car here. Slottet disk is probably my lack of experience talking and me overestimating. Not going to race, just drive it like i stole it.

You know that I would have spoken up for Carey, but Lars needs a pan-based Speedster for registration in Norway....
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I really want to get to the bottom of this with Special Edition - to see if its possible to do a hybrid.

I'll bet Carey could figure a way to get the original VIN on there somehow.  C'mon people -- if John Steele can do it, anybody can do it.  PS: In recent times John has since stopped doing his so-called hybrid tube frame, and just does pan-based, or so i am told.  Then again, if the price is right . . .

Lawsh, You should give Kevin (CoolRydesCustoms) Zager a call and talk to him before pulling the trigger. He does some really nice cars that are functional for what ever you want.

He also has his own StopTech disc brake set ups.

VS has to many issues of late and it's not like your a local...

As much as I would love to help Carey sell another great car the differences between their tube frame and the a VW pan are pretty fundamental.  Re-engineering to include a portion of the pan would probably be prohibitive as the rear tunnel/trans mount/engine mount area is completely different (see attachment).

crhemi (Bill) posted:

Lawsh, You should give Kevin (CoolRydesCustoms) Zager a call and talk to him before pulling the trigger. He does some really nice cars that are functional for what ever you want.

He also has his own StopTech disc brake set ups.

VS has to many issues of late and it's not like your a local...

I've had a half-dozen half posts put together with graybeard sage advice, but didn't send them for one reason or another.

To take a few things one by one: Lars needs a pan-based car. More than that, he needs a car with a Norwegian VW pan (or at least VIN). This rules out a lot of really good stuff: Intermeccanica, Beck, etc.

A Beck (Special Edition) is not a pan-based car (not the back 1/3, none of it). Thunder Ranch built one like El Frazoo describes, and JPS jumped on the bandwagon, but apparently nobody is doing the hybrid frame any more.

On the surface, that leaves him the choice of JPS or Vintage Speedsters. I could never recommend John Steele to anybody, but especially to somebody so easily bilked via a long-distance transaction. Kirk would be a much better choice, but the longer Lars's list gets, the less chance he's actually going to get what he wants. When he started with the 5-speed stuff, I was ready to tell him to cool his jets a bit.

However, Bill has a GREAT idea here. Mendeola, CoolRydesCustoms, Kevin Zagar (all the same thing) has built speedsters from the ground up for clients before, and he'd allow Lars the freedom to source his engine and transaxles from anywhere he wished. The importance of this cannot be overstated. Kirk sources engines from guys nobody ever heard of-- if I lived 8 timezones away, I wouldn't consider anybody but Pat Downs.

Anyhow, I know there are nits to pick with Kevin's suspension stuff (for a perfectionist idiot-savant like some bald guy I know, and a bunch of armchair engineers over on the Samba) but it's 99% of the way there, and an order of magnitude better than anything else he's likely to get.

With Kevin Zagar, Lars could get an IRS car, with a super beefed-up rear suspension, and a full A-arm front suspension. He could probably get the 16" wheels he'd like. Kevin would probably be able to source a VS body for the project, and build off whatever pan Lars would like to provide.

The car will cost 2x what a VS would, but it'd be 2x better. It's brilliant.

Another idea is to do what "Longfella" is doing, and having Vintage Motorcars (that's a different company, Lars) do all the suspension and bodywork, and other good shops do the things they are good at. This would require somebody on the ground in SoCal, but it might be possible to hire an LA guy from this site for a couple thousand dollars to be the general contractor. If I lived there, I'd love to do it-- it'd be a fun way to stay in the absolute center of the hobby, and spend other people's money. Perhaps there's somebody willing, but I don't know.

Either way, the longer the grocery-list gets, the less likely it is that Vintage Speedsters is going to scratch the itch. If you keep it simple, you'll be happier. If it gets pretty wild, I'd go a different direction.

The list is getting pretty exotic.

Great advice Stan. Normally, when folks go upscale, it's Beck or IM. Doing an upscale pan build is a different tack.
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Think Stan might be on to something.  If you got to go pan, this is it.  Wow.

 

Guys!!!

1) You're all totally f-ing awesome

2) Its getting obvious that VS is not the builder for me.

3) Im happy to spend 2X VS$ to get it 99% right the first time.

Phil: Is that something Kevin built? a SOC car? Looks like Mendola suspension.

Bill & Stan et al: Going the Kevin Zagar route sounds reeeally tempting. With you SOC-ers as advisors. Ill be more than happy to compensate for any on-the-ground consultancy. Should I just give him a call or should we approach him with a more detailed specification?

Lars

http://www.coolrydescustoms.com/

Go to custom builds.  Then speedster.  Cars look short on creature comfort but high on performance.  

 

Wow. Looks like total beasts. Are those really VW pans in the bottom? How much $ are we looking at here sans engine and transmission you think?

I suggest you contact Kevin Zagar for $$ info.  He's an occasional visitor here, so you can do a search and get contact info.  This really does look like the way to go.

If you plan on doing some canyon carving I'd strongly recommend an IRS rear suspension over a swing axle.

Coolride's suspension looks interesting and may be the solution to your government regulations problem.

Pretty great analysis of the situation, Stan! I will add- if you deal with Kevin, he builds the meanest brakes on the planet. I don't know about 5x205 patterned wheels (17" wide 5 wheels in aluminum would be the ultimate, but hey, a guy's gotta dream), but you could go to 17" Fuchs replicas and you'd have room for Kevin's biggest brakes. He could pie cut the rear fenders for a little more width (I would think he could arrange to do it before the car is painted); 225? 245? I'm drooling thinking of how much tire could be on the back of this thing!  Coupled with 160 or 180 hp, Berg 5 or 901...I have to stop now....

Lars, what is your budget, in U.S. Dollars? 

The VS car is a $30,000 USD proposition.

Zagar is going to be double that, or more, probably. I think Stan is right about the value/risk proposition here, but just for a reality check. 

Ok! Have made contact with Kevin "Coolrydes" Zagar and were having a very constructive dialogue. The most encouraging one yet so thank you for directing me! Bottom line so far: 

( Kevin approved to share this with you guys by the way )

 

Chassis

The build is based on a VW chassis that is sandblasted, inspected and shortened according to Volkswagens service bulletin. The cut area is reinforced and paired with high quality pan halves, powder coated, all new hardware, brake lines etc.. Then its prepared for Mendeola conversion and / or Porsche transaxle.

Engine

Up to me to choose. He also builds 2007/2110/2276CC normally aspirated engines and turbo engines. Any experiences with his engines? 

Transaxles

He does Rancho but also does a 911 / 915 5 speed kit. Tempting. But is 4 times the $.

Brakes and suspension

Mendeola etc.. Opinions / Experiences with the Mendeola system?

Body

He would source the body from Vintage Speedsters, which he has worked with in the past.

Price

Complete without transmission and engine: $28K. 

A ball park estimate for a complete car would be ranging from $38K to $59K depending on the amount of "madness" being applied : )

What do you think guys?

Those prices are actually quite reasonable.  I expected them to be higher.  Sounds very promising, Lars.

Agree.  I expected prices to be much higher.  28K for roller with Mendeola and IRS.  Sounds almost too good to be true.  Does this price include the Coolryde brakes?  Wheels?  Everyone here has an opinion about 4 vs 5 speed trannys.  For the $ I'd stay with a 4 speed.  Get yourself a 150-175hp type 1 or type 4 engine and stick with a 3.44 R&P Rancho with standard gearing.  You will be happy.  Humble 4 speed opinion.

Looking at the front trunk with the mendeola suspension rack there is NO luggage room.  Would also wonder if the price includes interior with leather and carpet or is it bare bone set up for the track.  One of these looks to be more like a purpose built sports car than a speedster cruiser.  More like a spyder.

We're going to be on the edge of our seats following this bad ass build :-)


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I doubt that the $28k price includes Mendeola suspension.  If it does that is really one hell of a bargain.