Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:for a perfectionist idiot-savant like some bald guy I know
I still have a lot of hair left...
So $28k as a roller.
$38-$60 tops for the hole magilla.
Correct?
Heck, we can help you get to $60k, just ask!
Does the 28 large also include a set of those custom pedals they make? Pretty cool!
For comparison, my $27K VS ended up costing more like $40K by the time I was rolling happily down the road in a car I could trust and that would stay with traffic.
If I had to do it again, I might be able to knock $5K off that, but not much more.
If you can drive a few used Boxsters and still stay committed to this project, you have the kind of irrational mind that owning a Speedster requires.
You are building a toy; only you can really decide what you want, and what fits in your budget. On the 4 speed vs 5 speed topic- if you stay with a 4 speed, the stock 1-4 gearset is pretty hard to improve on and the big decision is whether you want to be able to rip around town and be a badass on the street, feared by the local go fast crowd (4.125 ring&pinion; it will be a wee bit short on the highway); if you don't want to totally give up around town quickness and are anticipating a fair bit of highway travel, the 3.88 r&p is a good compromise and will give you 5mph more on the highway (at 3500rpm).
http://calc.teammfactory.com/i...26+2&trannytype=
There is an aftermarket 3.44 r&p available, but now off the line quickness is dead, if you live somewhere really hilly, do a lot of toodling town and are not great with a clutch you'll hate it, but it will add another 8 or 9 mph on the highway (again, at 3500rpm). Do all the usual strengthening tricks while having it built- even a stock engine can scramble a stock transaxle in short order (you can guess how I know this; all I will say is I was much younger and there was beer involved). It really will be money well spent.
Again, this is a toy, and a 5 speed allows you to be quick through the gears and have a decent highway gear, so it really is something only you can justify. A Gene Berg Ent. 5 speed (a converted VW type 1 transaxle) will fit easily in the car (the torsion tube has to be notched in a pan car), keep the stock shift pattern (with 5th up and to the right of 3rd), be a blast to drive both on the street and the highway, but will cost $4,000 extra. You won't regret it. I know a number of guys (3? 4?) with Berg 5's in their high powered VW's and no one would even think about taking it out; it's just that much more fun. Guys say it's like going from a stock to a bigger engine; it enhances the car and driving experience that much. Terry Nuckels (member here) has one in his Speedster; we'll see if he pipes in with a testimonial.
The only issue here is dealing with Gene Berg Ent.- it typically takes a year to put together a Berg 5, as they do all the shaft lengthening and other modifications in batches of 10, and you may will wait months before they are ready to do a production run. Ted (TRP on here) is in this position at the moment. It can be very frustrating, as Ted will tell you.
An early Porsche (901) trans will fit between the frame horns (with a little work) and will be cheaper to do than the Berg 5, but will be really expensive should you need to re-gear it (depending on what it's come out of) and not every one gets used to the dog leg 1-2 shift.
I won't go into engines (or anything else) as it's already been covered (and I really do have to go to work), but I'll leave you with this- it's only money. How much ya got?
Al
PS- click below for a 3.44 geared 4 speed vs a street stompin', totally kick @ss 5 speed.
http://calc.teammfactory.com/i...26+2&trannytype=
PPSS- Don't listen to Ron- he's a poopiehead!
Lawsh, also look into what a Subaru powered speedster would cost. Kevin has put together some awesome Subie conversions. In my opinion a water cooled Subie engine is far superior to a type 1 air cooled.
If the price was comparable, I would choose a 4 speed Subie powered speedster over a 5 speed type 1 powered speedster.
Man. He must be so confused. Just to stir the pot. Ron, would you use a 3.88 or a 3.44 R&P with your 175 hp subie engine (assume standard gearing)? I'll take the 3.44.
I was just going to say that 2x the cost for Kevin to build a car is inaccurate...there you have it. And he is a fast builder!
Kevin also builds motors and takes pride in his work.
FWIW, pie cut the body is a good idea... running a 17" rim not such a good idea!
crhemi (Bill) posted:I was just going to say that 2x the cost for Kevin to build a car is inaccurate...there you have it. And he is a fast builder!
Kevin also builds motors and takes pride in his work.
FWIW, pie cut the body is a good idea... running a 17" rim not such a good idea!
With a more modern suspension you can get away with a shorter sidewall tire not affecting the ride as much, there are nice 17" replica alloys available and there are piles of tires to choose from. And yeah, a little pie cut, glass it back together and the amount of tire you could fit under the back! The wider tire somewhat negates the tail-happy attitude these cars have. Look at what Porsche is putting on the backs of their cars these days- I think they're trying to make the handling a little more "civilized" to appeal to more of the automotive market.
I think a 17 is to big and does not look right on such a small car...Unless you building a "Donk" 16 are perfect! Just my opinion.
The selection of sporting tires is very sparse at 15", slightly better at 16", and pretty darned good at 17". I agree that 17s don't look right on a Speedster, though.
Mendeola and coolryde breaks included? Oh yes!
Regarding interior its pretty basic, so I'llprobably upgrade the seats and interior to leather.
Al, Can you explain the calculator? In 4th for example, am I doing 83Mph at 3500rpm? What is Shift Pt? You are getting me all wet with that 5-speed speech. Kevin does A 911/ 915 transmission kit that will cost 6500$ ( gulp )
Is that a dog leg or regular layout?
It ain't gonna be no water running through this engine though. I like the rawness of an aircooled. To me its more true to the concept. Agree Bill, 16" Wheels looks perfect to me. The dream wheel would be the ones Rod made on his 1958 Special. I think he had them made special for this project.
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It's all relative I suppose, but a 915 installed (in a pan modified for it) for $6500 is actually a steal, assuming it's been rebuilt with new bearings and syncros.
Pay now and feel the pain once. The current Beck Chassis can't support anything other than a VW trans, so I have a beefed up drag trans to handle the torque of the Suby engine which costs almost as much as your 911 option.
Shifting has been one of the things I've had to accept in 70 year old technology.
I upgraded to a CSP shifter (recommended) and improved the linkage and shifter rod bushing, and went to a hydraulic clutch (also highly recommended) and have gotten it as good as it's going to get.
I drive around town mostly and rarely use 4th gear. On the highway, it does fine.
However, if I could get a smoother shifting trans (no idea if the 911 meets that criteria), I would, whether it be 4 or 5.
I don't know if it can get any better given the linkage arrangement.
Prepare to find shifting disappointing compared to modern manual transmissions.
>
Shifting has been one of the things I've had to accept in 70 year old technology.
I upgraded to a CSP shifter (recommended) and improved the linkage and shifter rod bushing, and went to a hydraulic clutch (also highly recommended) and have gotten it as good as it's going to get.
I drive around town mostly and rarely use 4th gear. On the highway, it does fine.
However, if I could get a smoother shifting trans (no idea if the 911 meets that criteria), I would, whether it be 4 or 5.
I don't know if it can get any better given the linkage arrangement.
Prepare to find shifting disappointing compared to modern manual transmissions.
>
Al, I've been trading PM's with Lars and have led him down the Willy Wonka road of 5-speeds. It was a road I wanted to go during the build process of Penny but was talked out of it by this fraternity and by the builder. "Go Stroker and you won't need five gears" was the mantra. Well, where I live, that's bullsh!t. I'm not saying that you can't have as much fun with your 4-speed car. If you're perfectly happy tooling around and enjoying the sunshine there is no need to spend the bucks on a fifth gear.
Mitch makes a good point, Lars. These cars can easily surpass the cost of a nice used Boxster or a brand new Miata when you start to option them out. If at all possible, try to find someone local that will let you get some seat time in a Speedster. Or fly over here and I'll let you take Penny through the Sierra Foothills. These little plastic potatoes aren't for everyone.
Phil IM356D posted:Man. He must be so confused. Just to stir the pot. Ron, would you use a 3.88 or a 3.44 R&P with your 175 hp subie engine (assume standard gearing)? I'll take the 3.44.
Phil, I agree-3.44 is the way to go with a 175 hp Subie engine.
Good to hear, Terry! I was hoping you'd chime in. I don't think I was a regular here yet when you built Penny; I would have been the lone voice in the wilderness.
Have you guys discussed gearing? I'd like to be in on that, if possible.
I know Kevin likes the 915, as there are advantages- they are relatively plentiful, they will put up with just about anything a type 1 engine can throw at it, and since he's done it before, he's figured out the installation. He probably knows which ones have the best gearing for our cars as well.
The disadvantage (as I see it) is the extra weight it adds to the car. It's significantly heavier (I don't know where it comes from, but I have 50lbs or more stuck in me wee brain) than a type 1 trans, (that's more than 5% in our cars) and at the power output of even a 2 heathy liter that's a noticeable penalty. Handling and braking will suffer slightly with the extra weight as well.
A type 1 transaxle can be beefed up to reliably handle even a heathy dual carbed 2200-2400cc type 1 engine (it will need to be looked at every few years; let's not ask the world here), so I don't really see the point of dealing with that weight penalty. Gears (and other parts) are relatively cheap as well (I know we've all gone apesh*t over the cost of a custom Weddle 1-2 mainshaft in other threads, and I've yelled as loud as anyone else, but realistically, if we were to cost out an oe mainshaft/gearset for a G50 we'd probably all faint and never be revived!) so it's easy to customize it to what we want. The 901(earlier 911/912 5 speed) would also be a better option, as it's designed to handle the power range we're looking at with modified type 1's, although now you have to deal with Porsche prices if you need to change gearing and when it needs to be gone through.
The only issue with deciding to go with converted 4-5 speed is Gene Berg Ent., and it is an issue, as our dear friend Ted will (I'm sure) not so happily keep us informed of (believe me,Ted, I feel your pain. I've delt with them before and I know what it's like). Yeah, they're a pain in the @ss to deal with (production date promises never seem to pan out), but if you decide to go this route it's worth the wait. They are a small shop putting out an innovative product in a small marketplace and as such can't afford to keep all the different parts in stock (4 different ring&pinions alone) so they modify your parts in batches of 10 customers at a time. In retail terms it's a relatively slow mover- not thousands, or even hundreds, but a couple (or maybe few?) dozen sold per year. In a conversation (once upon a time) with Gene he told me that when they did their first production run of the 5 speed (about 1980) it took 5 or 7 years to sell 112 kits. That's a long time to have all that stock sitting on the shelf. So it is what it is, and you either accept it or you don't. The problem is, there's really no place else to go. So again, it is what it is.
And yeah, with 5 speeds and bigger engines and way cooler/better brakes and... and... and... the price can hit the cost of a Boxter or Z convertible or Miata but honestly,
Who the hell wants to toodle around in a Miata when you can do it in one of these? Really? If we're even having this conversation you are not worthy!
and that ends my editorial comment for the day...
Just my 2 1/2 cents (I'm Canadian, eh). Al
"Al, Can you explain the calculator? In 4th for example, am I doing 83Mph at 3500rpm? What is Shift Pt? You are getting me all wet with that 5-speed speech."
Yes, Lawsh, you've got it right. You'd be doing 83mph at 3500rpm. The shift pt is what the rpm's drop to when you shift into the next gear at the Max. rpm (in a box at the top and changeable). I used 3500rpm because that's what you would normally shift at for the next gear. People have described a 5 speed as being the same magnitude as going from a stock beetle engine to stroked 2 liter that revs to 6 or 6500rpm with power; it's that big a change to the character of your car. You have to have driven a bug with a bigger engine and then installed (and enjoyed the joy that is) close ratio 3rd and 4th gears (and then yearn for a 5th as you're cruising down the highway at all of 50mph) to appreciate what an addition a 5 speed is...
PS- Do we have any idea of the cost of those wide 5 wheels on the Emory coupe in Lawsh's post? Aluminum or steel?
Q. - PS- Do we have any idea of the cost of those wide 5 wheels on the Emory coupe in Lawsh's post?
A #1 - If you have to ask you can't afford it.
A #2 - I'm not sure what the first number is but the second, third, fourth, and maybe the fifth number are zeros.
Terry Nuckels posted:try to find someone local that will let you get some seat time in a Speedster. Or fly over here and I'll let you take Penny through the Sierra Foothills.
Sounds totally awesome Terry. The best excuse for another trip to SF Ive ever seen. Especially when you dont need an excuse for another trip to SF. I might take you up on that.
ALB posted:Yes, Lawsh, you've got it right. You'd be doing 83mph at 3500rpm.
Ok so if that's true then I'd be cruising in 80mph at 3500 with the 5-speed? (*scratching my head*)
ALB posted:PS- Do we have any idea of the cost of those wide 5 wheels on the Emory coupe in Lawsh's post? Aluminum or steel?
From Emorymotorsports.com: http://www.emorymotorsports.co...he-356-emory-special
"With the large bolt pattern I had wheels built for the car that are 16 x 5 ½ billet, with the look of an early Pre-A wheel. I did the wheels in a satin, brushed finish and then put a satin clear over them to keep them from staining from brake dust. The tire size we used was 195/60/16."
Sent Rod an email. Dont know If I want to know, but I need to know.
OfGosh - my 5 speed parts are supposed to ship out today or tomorrow!
Sorry. Back to your regular thread.
Lawsh posted:ALB posted:Yes, Lawsh, you've got it right. You'd be doing 83mph at 3500rpm.
Ok so if that's true then I'd be cruising in 80mph at 3500 with the 5-speed? (*scratching my head*)
Lars, the main reason most folks want a five-speed with a VW motor isn't to add an overdrive top gear. It's to add a gear between 3rd and 4th.
In fact, when going to a five-speed, it's common to keep the same ring and pinion and top gear that the four speed had.
You have to look at the history of how the VW evolved from a 25-hp car to understand how it ended up with the weird 'stock' gearing most of our cars are stuck with. The original car had to be able to start up steep climbs from rest with Mutter and Vater aboard, and the two Kinder in the back. And it had to do 60 mph on the autobahn without over-revving the little doodlebug. The original top gear was already an overdrive.
With significantly more power (and torque) than the original car, the cheapest, most practical improvement to the gearing for our cars is to swap in a 3.88 R&P for the original 4.12. That at least gives higher speeds on the highway at a 3500 rpm cruise.
But it does nothing to fill in that huge gap between 3rd and 4th. Most of us just get used to buzzing around town at 3000 rpm in third because we're on the edge of lugging at 2200 rpm in fourth.
After a few years of this, though, comes the day when, yet again, you're climbing a long grade behind some moron who has you stuck just at the 3-4 shift point and you decide that's it. That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more.
You can do it now or do it later, but unless you have the calm, resolute manner and almost zen-like composure of Musbjim, unless you can find peace where all about you see chaos, unless you believe that nothing can harm you unless you allow it to, you WILL do it.
TRP posted:OfGosh - my 5 speed parts are supposed to ship out today or tomorrow!
Sorry. Back to your regular thread.
Haha.. what was the thread again? To much scrolling to check. Tell me about your 5 speed! What engine are you pairing it with?
Berg 5 speed. New Rhino case. 3.88 Ring and Pinion. Beef-a-diff. Gearing carefully designed and scoped by Anthony. Bus 5th gear. Welded 3rd/4th. Possibly a pair of Anthony's race axles. It's paired up to a CB Performance 2056. Disks on all 4 corners. Vintage Speed 5 speed classic speedster shifter.
I just need to find a builder. I used Ken Porter for my 4 speed. May use Ken, Gary Berg, or Sebastian for my 5 speed.
Pretty exciting stuff. I blame Anthony, ALB, and Terry for the whole thing. My new 4 speed isn't even a YEAR OLD?!
I started the 5 speed journey back in December. More than once I had thrown in the towel. I was ready to buy a Rancho/Weddle unit. The parts FINALLY arrived today. Now I'm on the hunt for a builder!
Careful my Norse friend... the sickness takes hold quickly... and before you know it... it's a full blown madness.
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Very cool, Ted! And a t shirt too. Forget about blame (although I accept that too!); I want to see a pic of the SEG on your face when it's back on the road! And you have to remember that you're just easily swayed...
Lars, when you talk to Ted about anything Speedster related, remember that the Madness has affected him quite seriously since the day he took posession of his car, and it's only gotten worse...
No water! Consider a type 4 torque monster!
TRP posted:Berg 5 speed. New Rhino case. 3.88 Ring and Pinion. Beef-a-diff. Gearing carefully designed and scoped by Anthony. Bus 5th gear. Welded 3rd/4th. Possibly a pair of Anthony's race axles. It's paired up to a CB Performance 2056. Disks on all 4 corners. Vintage Speed 5 speed classic speedster shifter...
.. Careful my Norse friend... the sickness takes hold quickly... and before you know it... it's a full blown madness.
Sounds like a peppy ride! Bus 5th (?) Welded 3rd/4th (?) ... those are choices you made when ordering? What's the ratios on it? Need to up my tranny knowledge..
Good to hear its full blown! Wouldnt want it any other way.
crhemi (Bill) posted:No water! Consider a type 4 torque monster!
Take me to school Bill!
Lawsh posted:crhemi (Bill) posted:No water! Consider a type 4 torque monster!
Take me to school Bill!
I'm only qualified to school the kids that ride the short bus...
crhemi (Bill) posted:I'm only qualified to school the kids that ride the short bus...
Haha.. Thanks for another American idiom. 70 posts deep in a "brakes" thread, somebody's slow on the uptake (double idiom whammy!) (*pointing at yours (Norse) truly*)
Tom Blankinship posted:
Pouring another glass of Gattinara 2011. Diving in.
Learn about Type IVs and then think harder about Suby
I had a 2054cc 140 hp Type I with an A1 Sidewinder exhaust.
Now, I have a 2.5L 175hp ej253 Suby with dual headers through twin glass packs w/augers.
It's still a flat 4 engine but with several decades of engineering advancement, millions of dollars of development, and it's a water cooled, fuel injected, computer-controlled, growling, torque monster.
Type IVs were the way to go for improved power and reliability, but IMHO, the Suby platform has now passed it by.
I want to drive, not fiddle with carbs and the throttle response of fuel-injection can't be matched.
My car gained 87 lbs with the Suby. I imagine the Type IV is somewhere between the Type I and the Suby.
>
I had a 2054cc 140 hp Type I with an A1 Sidewinder exhaust.
Now, I have a 2.5L 175hp ej253 Suby with dual headers through twin glass packs w/augers.
It's still a flat 4 engine but with several decades of engineering advancement, millions of dollars of development, and it's a water cooled, fuel injected, computer-controlled, growling, torque monster.
Type IVs were the way to go for improved power and reliability, but IMHO, the Suby platform has now passed it by.
I want to drive, not fiddle with carbs and the throttle response of fuel-injection can't be matched.
My car gained 87 lbs with the Suby. I imagine the Type IV is somewhere between the Type I and the Suby.
>
Thanks Tom. I already have those engineering advances in my practical/mundane Audi A4 2008 station wagon with quattro and all. Perfect for kitesurfing in the summer and splitboarding during winter.
This one though, is going to be more hardcore. No water. No computer. Just a mechanical, moody, no compromise, streetable racing machine. I too want to drive, but if I can learn some mechanical bits on the way and be the master (eeh apprentice) of my "torque monster", I consider that a plus.
Good on ya, Lars! Sounds like you have the right attitude. Remember that the most important tool in the tool box is a sense of humor.
Lawsh posted:Thanks Tom. I already have those engineering advances in my practical/mundane Audi A4 2008 station wagon with quattro and all. Perfect for kitesurfing in the summer and splitboarding during winter.
This one though, is going to be more hardcore. No water. No computer. Just a mechanical, moody, no compromise, streetable racing machine. I too want to drive, but if I can learn some mechanical bits on the way and be the master (eeh apprentice) of my "torque monster", I consider that a plus.
Okay then - I'm a purist too... If you have the funds I highly recommend FAT Performance in Southern California. I would spare no expense and buy their 2.6L TYPE 4 with the 911 fan and shroud setup. Tell Greg what you are putting it in and he will recommend the correct exhaust. This IS the engine that you want I promise.
With this setup you want a TALL transaxle. No shorter than a 3.44 R&P. I personally wouldn't spend the money on a 5 speed when this is all you need - 3.11 1st, 2.86 2nd, 1.21 3rd, and a .89 4th + 2.6L Type4 = pure heaven. You can call Rancho Tranaxles here in Southern Cal. Tell them you want a modified Pro Street configuration suitable for a 200 HP engine with these ratios - 3.44 R&P, 3.11 1st, 2.86 2nd, 1.21 3rd, and a .89 4th. Ask that Cory build it and document it. If you have to wait on parts to be made then do it but don't compromise on this configuration. My father always said, "If man could learn from man there would be giants riding on top of the shoulders of other giants". This IS the setup that you want!
Tom Blankinship posted:Learn about Type IVs and then think harder about Suby
I had a 2054cc 140 hp Type I with an A1 Sidewinder exhaust.
Now, I have a 2.5L 175hp ej253 Suby with dual headers through twin glass packs w/augers.
It's still a flat 4 engine but with several decades of engineering advancement, millions of dollars of development, and it's a water cooled, fuel injected, computer-controlled, growling, torque monster.
Type IVs were the way to go for improved power and reliability, but IMHO, the Suby platform has now passed it by.
I want to drive, not fiddle with carbs and the throttle response of fuel-injection can't be matched.
My car gained 87 lbs with the Suby. I imagine the Type IV is somewhere between the Type I and the Suby.
>
Rumor has it that CB new and improved Fuel Injection System works very well...
Before I got my IM I was seriously considering building another spyder. That's exactly the powertrain I was going for. FAT 2.6L Type 4 with a 3.44. About 200hp. At the time I think the engine was going to cost about $12k. A lot cheaper than a Raby.
Blasphemy!
Do you have a 5 speed? nooooooooooooo.... how dare you speak ill of them. Especially after I've shelled out all this dough.