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Alright madmen. Enough theory and nerding it out on the webs. Time to get practical and do some driving. Today I got to take this little thingy (attached) for a spin. First time behind the wheel of a speedster. Pretty intense. Spent the first 15minutes figuring it out, getting used to it. Holy crap, the breaking, pedal moving sooo long. So different. Stopped ok I guess trying to emergency brake from 40. But that was 40. And shifting gears, hahaaa felt like holding a little chop stick poking around in the gearbox, each time praying not to hit reverse : ) Sooo loose and lots of play. Another 15minutes in and starting to enjoy it, and damn what a feeling, everything else fades. 100% focused on the driving, thinking about how to squeeze the most out the next corner. Not hitting norwegian roller skiers and cyclists. Easier on the steering than I expected. Surprisingly quiet inside too. Cruising. And feeling pretty small, damn. Riding around in a tub. Sitting really comfortable though. And the sound, nice.  Still felt the adrenaline half an hour after. Stoked!

The car I got to test was a very basic Vintage Speedster based on a 1960 pan.

  • Unknown 1914cc engine, 
  • Unknown transmission
  • Discs in front
  • Built 2008, imported 2012. Owned by the current owner since 2014, super nice guy. 
  • 11K miles

To me it was actually perfect for setting some kind of baseline for what Im getting into. Know more now where I want to go from here. My initial thoughts:

  • Need a much more peppier engine for this to be really fun. Dont know about the HP on this but it did not feel that powerful. Ran smooth though. Probably well kept.
  • Need way more breaking power and more response / seriously less play to have confidence when going faster. Willing to put some serious $$ into a bulletproof breaking system.
  • Shifting gears. Damn, that was really flimsy and had a lot of throw. Needs to be way more tight to provoke the grin. I want to work those gears, definitively want a much more racy feel. Also found myself wanting to shift to 5th a couple of times. Did not work. Its obvious to me now that I have to invest in a serious transmission setup. Is it the transmission only? the shifter to? what else?

First bullet point seems to be easy to solve. The next two I need more help mitigating.

Paying heed.

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Lars,

It's great that you got to drive a VS built Speedster. Now you know what the basic setup is all about. The stock 1915 cc engine from VS is 90hp. The transmission is their stock 3.88 r&p with stock gear setup which I think is somewhere near 1st. 3.80 2nd. 2.06 3rd. 1.32 and 4th .89. You're correct in that it has discs in front and drums in the rear.

Even with a basic Speedster you can have a lot of fun. Anything else more custom that that will just add more smiles per gallon. Just don't go too big or the reliability factor begins to go down at a rapid clip.

The shifter alone will make a big difference. I have a CSP with a 40% reduction in throw and the reverse lockout spring is on a T-handle rather than the base. These two things take the slop out of the shifting. You can replace the shifter without getting dirty. Two bolts from the top.

The two most popular are CSP & Vintage Speed.
>

A 2276 that revs to 6,000rpm and makes 155-160hp would be an easy engine to maintain, give good life/reasonable gas mileage and be a blast to drive. These cars are comprised of fairly early automotive technology, though, and even with 4 pot calipers and vented discs on the front with discs on the rear it will  never truly feel like a modern car, so that is just something you will have to get used to. There are sturdier shifters and if you can add an extra 3-$4,000 to the budget, close ratio gears (so it will really rip around town!)  with a 5th for a highway gear can be yours. As with almost everything where cars and high performance are concerned, it boils down to 1 thing- how much money ya got?

I've owned lots of modern sports cars.  I don't want my 356 replica to be one of them.  Power is power.  It doesn't matter if you get it from air or watercooled power.  But more power is probably better.  I have a bullet proof 2.0 L VW/Audi 145 hp watercooled.  Good reliable power.  An accelerator pedal is pretty nondescript.  It doesn't have that much feel.  You push it down and the car goes.  The clutch is also pretty nondescript.  But I can really feel the steering, the shifter and the brakes.  I definitely do not want power steering.  I want good handling which I get from my circa 1970's Porsche 914 running gear.   I want strong brakes but not power brakes.  I have beefy BMW 320i front brakes on my car.  I personally like the feel of my VW type 1 4-speed tranny.  Would I take a 901 or 915 5-speed.  Sure I would.  For the price the VW 4-speed is fine and plenty fun.  But definitely upgrade to a CSP or Vintage Speed shifter.  My 2 cents.  I want my car to be bullet proof reliable but I want it to feel old school. 

Lars, you want a newer chassis that has a ball joint beam. I'll bet the Speedster you were driving was running way too much air in the front tires. You'll feel much more grounded with 20-22psi in the front tires. Sounds like you were shifting a stock VW shifter. A short throw kit or even a cheap Empi shifter would make a huge difference. I prefer a Vintage Speed shifter because it looks vintage. Brakes - at least discs in the front. But remember, these cars are definitely retro, you're not going to stop like you do in a modern car. 

It takes some getting used to feeling so small in traffic. I would try to log about 100 miles on a Speedster in traffic to really see if you're worthy.

Terry Nuckels posted:

It takes some getting used to feeling so small in traffic. I would try to log about 100 miles on a Speedster in traffic to really see if you're worthy.

Yeah, there is something about looking up to see into a Prius passenger side window that takes some getting used to.  That... and being eye level with the lugnuts of an 18 wheeler.

LARS:

COOL!!    (pardon the pun!!)  being in Norway and all..........  Sounds like you really enjoyed yourself...  Yes its a crazy feeling being so low but just enjoy it...  It does take some getting used to that's for sure

I play this game with Semi Trucks .. If they are going the right speed, and theirs no one around I drive under the trailer and cruise for a bit .. TALK ABOUT ADRENALINE RUSH!!

I would only recommend you do this when you have car with  a bigger power plant.. and more miles behind the wheel...

Also  I have seen Snowmobiles that look just like speedsters!!   Could be your winter Driver? YES? 

Happy you got to drive one  ...   Now...... lets get you set up with a bad A$$ car!!

WE are all Happy to help with any questions you have...

 

TEBS

 

 

 

Teby S posted:

...I play this game with Semi Trucks .. If they are going the right speed, and theirs no one around I drive under the trailer and cruise for a bit .. TALK ABOUT ADRENALINE RUSH!!

I would only recommend you do this when you have car with  a bigger power plant.. and more miles behind the wheel...

In no situation do I see that ending any way but badly...

Phil IM356D posted:

I've owned lots of modern sports cars.  I don't want my 356 replica to be one of them....

I want strong brakes but not power brakes.  I have beefy BMW 320i front brakes on my car... 

So, you're saying the 320i calipers are a worthwhile addition? A little welding (and machining) and they might be able to be adapted to Ghia discs (might have to use type 3 rotors, as they're 11mm thick, just like the 914, whereas the Ghia rotors are 9.5mm (I think). What size tires does your car have? Do you know if you're using a 17 or 19mm 914 master cylinder?

Shifter: http://shop.vintagespeed.com.t...sc.12/category.34/.f

I can personally recommend this one; I had him take the bend out (no charge) so it looks like an MG shifter. Took it a while to get settled but now I don't know how I lived without it. 

Gears: 5 speed is awesome if you have the extra $5,000. Everybody says. For $1,000 or so get a late Beetle (post 1972) box, neatly rebuilt with hardened keys, welded 3rd and 4th gear hubs, a "Super Diff", aftermarket side cover and--this is the important part: 3.44-to-1 ring and pinion.

This gives you the longer legs you want on the highway and eliminates that 1st-gear-is-only-for-pulling-up-tree-stumps effect you get with the stock 3.88 or 4.10 R&P. 

IRS for handling, Swing axle for "period-correctness." I think you want IRS.

A CB Performance 2110 will get you 140 horse, which is about the same as my stock Subaru 2.2. That's what you want for that transmission. Plenty of pep: zero-to-60 (100 kph) in about 6 seconds (based on 1900 lbs weight with driver). You're at 100 kph at the top of second gear. In 3rd you can roll from 80kph to 160 kph very smartly before shifting to 4th. Your RPM cruising at 100 kph will be about 2500. Your imputed theoretical top speed is about 200 kph (125 mph). Life is good.*

Brakes (AKA Breaks): Put good discs on the front and back. Spring for the correct, cable-operated hand brake. End of story. Adjust them right and the pedal will feel right. It will never feel like power brakes and you will learn to love that.

Steering/suspension: the stock steering box, ball-joint beam and IRS rear torsion bar/trailing arm system works pretty damn good, if modded slightly, adjusted correctly and maintained. You're talking to Kevin at Coolyrides so he'll maybe sell you on one of his crazy suspension rigs. If you go that way you can put as much HP as you want in the car. You'll pay.

 

 

*There are people here who will tell you that you want more power than this. You might, but you'll be creating a project for yourself. The chassis you are going to get is stable and safe up to about 140 horse. After that, it will get scary, and you will be working to make it less so. And if you go for, say, 200 horsepower, you'll likely never get it right. Your whole life will shift into how-can-I-make-this-car-work-right? mode instead of goddamn-I-love-this-car-I'm-so-cool-life-is-good! mode. Nothing wrong with that first mode; some guys want to be tweaking their cars for ultimate performance all their lives. But from your posts so far I think you are aiming more for the second mode.

Last edited by edsnova

Al

I've got a different set up than anyone else on this site.  I have Porsche 914 72-76 4 lug running gear up front.  Conversion to 320i front brakes is common in the Porsche 914 community.  Same calipers.  Larger pistons and pads.  Same 19mm master.  Big difference.  There is a thread on it from about a month ago with links to all technical information.  They still feel vintage but they stop like hell.

Last edited by 550 Phil

I've read about the conversion and know you have 914 front suspension, Phil. As I said, a little welding to increase the material to widen the bolt spacing in the caliper mount area , some machine shop time and some type 3 rotors and it would be do-able. Do you know which master cylinder you're running? 

ALB posted:
Teby S posted:

....Re my semi truck driving trick..........  I have logged thousands of hours  driving the clown car for Ringling Bros.

My apologies; I had no idea you were so qualified...

(honestly Tebs, that was so funny my ice cream came up through my nose!)

That's understandable Al, Teby's hard to recognize with all that makeup on.

See, there he is driving:

Unknown-6

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Its all about physics.  For the same size brake caliper pistons a smaller master (17mm) will be easier to push but travel will be longer.  If you keep the same calipers and go to a larger master (19mm) the effort will be higher but the brake pedal travel will be shorter.

I actually kept the same 19mm master but went to larger calipers and pistons.  So my pedal travel now is longer (to fill the larger pistons with fluid) but my effort is less.  I also went to much larger pads which also help my stopping power.

Everything is a trade off.

Teby S posted:

 

Also  I have seen Snowmobiles that look just like speedsters!!   Could be your winter Driver? YES?

Yes! You probably mean these beasts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gGajKf2Bmo Freaking awesome things. Rode these a couple of times to get to some good skiing. V8s and all. This is the way you get deep into the mountains with style. They're running from Tyinholmen to Eidsbugarden. https://www.google.com/maps/di...+Norway/Tyinholmen+Høyfjellsstuer,+2985+Tyinkrysset,+Norway/@61.3165061,8.1910452,10z/data=!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x461573c0e8a40cb7:0x5b006ea5c388d9a1!2m2!1d8.2988399!2d61.3753681!1m5!1m1!1s0x4615715669cc16ff:0xf4f85919336a1a23!2m2!1d8.2584333!2d61.3545102

Skål!

 

Lars,

I know I sound like a broken record, but I've been brewing on this for a few days, so hear me out. The pan is the limiter here. A pan-based car can be made to be very, very nice-- but as soon as you make that choice, you become limited by the practical. That's not bad, it just means the slate is not completely clean.

Everybody looks at an IM as a bit of a curiosity because they cost so dog-gone much. But the platform itself is what makes an IM magic. It's not the rollup windows, the perfect paint, the great materials in every place, or the fit and finish-- it's the fact that an IM is a tube-framed car with multiple suspension/brake/transaxle options. The biggest mistake I made in specing mine was to not avail myself of some of the more exotic suspension choices.

Phil's car has a 914 suspension and brakes-- a full 914 set-up. Bob's and Marty's car have 911 suspension, brakes and running gear. The difference between these cars and a car with a front VW suspension beam cannot be overstated-- they are just an order of magnitude better. I did not have them money for such things when I put my car together, but in hindsight, I'd do whatever I ended to to get the 911 front suspension under the car.

In the absence of this as a possibility, this is why we were all pushing hard towards a Mendeola-suspended pan for the first 100 posts or so in the various conversations regarding your (yet-unbuilt) car. It's possible to eradicate the "old-car" (in the worse sense of what that means) out of the car, but it'll not be easy. There are cars with a VW beam that come close (I think my car, Joel Schlotz's car, and Terry Nuckel's car, and my car are all pretty nice) that do just fine-- they all have new beams, built with quality components, with all the tricks.

As Terry said, a ball-joint front end is the baseline (NO LINK-PIN). If it's a pan-based car, the EMPI stiffeners are worth every penny. You'll need at least a stock sway-bar-- I've got a thicker sway-away, but stock would've been fine. Good bearings (US, Scandinavian, or German-- not Asian or Latin) make stuff work. I've got a VW Golf rack and pinion adapted to my frame, I think it's worth it.

Out back, everybody keeps talking about IRS-- and that's great-- but greater still is being able to run 5.5" wheels and disc brakes.

With a pan-based, traditional-bodied speedster, using readily available wheels-- you can pick from one of these options:

1) IRS, 4-1/2" wheels, disc brakes

2) Swing-axle, 5-1/2" wheels, disc brakes

Everybody keeps advocating for a "Door Number 3" (IRS, 5-1/2" wheels, disc brakes), which doesn't really exist unless you are willing to spring for custom wheels that move the hub outboard (more back-spacing). You could get 5-1/2" steel wheels re-centered by Stockton Wheels or somebody similar (Danny Pip did his own, but he's a beast). But if you want ally wheels, get out your checkbook. Coddington or somebody similar could make a set for you, but they would have a price-tag approaching the cost of a 4x4 ft section of the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, or a ride on the Mars Mission. At that point, get them in 16" if you want-- it's only money.

The problem with the custom wheel approach is-- what do you do if you bend one? I'm thinking if you buy four, you really ought to buy at least five. Now the cost exceeds the GDP of a banana republic.

Staying with rear drums helps a bit, but it's not a compromise I'd be willing to make (nor is it one that you'd like to make, either). Other options (custom control arms and shafts, etc.) are expensive. Unless your choo-choo is really headed around the bend (like *ahem* "some people"), choosing a pan-based car means choosing swing-axle, unless you want to run narrow rims and/or drum brakes.

... and you know what? That's OK.

I'd advocated for a "modified Jim Ignacio" hakuna matata plan. If you build a car with a nice, tight 2110-- you won't outrun the platform. Get a nicely built 5-speed swing-axle, and some killer AL wheels from Vintage Motorcars, and a good 4-wheel disc brakeset with Wilwood calipers (AirKewld or somebody similar). Get a truss bar, the EMPI front-end stiffeners, a CB camber-compensator, a front sway-bar, some good oil-filled shocks. Get rhino-mounts and a Vintage Speed shifter for the transaxle. Make sure everything has been re-bushed and has good bearings-- and be 100% content with what this is, rather than what it'll never be.

It's good advice that I wish had been offered to me, and which I wish I had heeded along the path. Stupid-cool stuff is mostly just stupid. To 99.99% of the world, what I'm advocating is the absolute most bang possible for the money spent, at least on these cars.

The engine and transaxle in an IM is moved forward, while the rear wheels stay in the same place.  In addition to shifting weight forward in the vehicle, this change  effectively shortens the driveshafts, allowing the hubs to move in.

Because it's a custom frame, the suspension pick up points can also be moved inboard-- and all of the sudden, normal 5 1/2 inch wheels are a possibility with IRS. It's really a sweet design.  

Last edited by Stan Galat
Phil IM356D posted:

Great info Stan.  I know IM uses rear IRS in all their cars even the lower end cars.  And I know these cars have 5.5 inch wheels.  Is the engine more forward or are the axles shorter?

Phil, IM moves the engine 3" forward which helps shorten the axles by running them at an angle. A little more stress on the CV joints but you can tuck a good sized tires in the wheel well.

Stan, I'm running 5.5" wheels on Penny with discs and IRS. Of course, I'm also running an original set of Mahle baby burners and my right rear rotor has been shaved a quarter of an inch. Lars, did anybody mention that VS, JPS, CMC, etc., all suffer from unequal rear wheel well clearances between the left and right - right side being 1/4" narrower. 

The original Fuchs, Mahles And Pedrinis have adequate backspacing on their 5.5 wheels to be run on VS cars. You will have to address the right rotor to make them work.

Lars, as you've come to realize, this site is awesome for all the info and great folks willing to share their replica Speedster experience and expertise.

However, with all the varied techno-advice you're getting, I suggest you start cataloging the primary and sub-topics (as well as non-related topics) of your Speedster research and revert to the Dewey Decimal System to keep track of the volumes of information. 

Then, after you've read the SOC posts equivalent of 'War & Peace' (and 'War & Peace Part Deaux', then 'Return to War & Peace', then 'Beneath The Planet of War & Peace') you can subsequently build your 'dream' car. But, alas, you'll soon return to SOC threads in search of advice for improving the 'improvements' on your Speedster.

OR...you could just go out there and log some top-down mileage and enjoy the scenery...

Screen Shot 2015-01-25 at 2.56.08 PM

Welcome To The Madness known as replica Speedster ownership! 

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