There Are No Coincidences

No fuel pressure, clogged line/filter?

Pertronix module. 

You have me stumped, Cole. I'm thinking Bill's thoughts of clogged line and/or filter, but not reacting to starting fluid definitely points to something else as well. What's the timing like? Have you checked valve adjustment?

The car will start and run fine on 1 psi, unless it's at WOT. The bouncing tach and other symptoms point to spark. The commonly used ignition systems on these engines are just junk. Everybody wants every problem to be fuel, but 90% of all carburation problems are spark.

I voted for the module, but it could just as easily be something stupid like a bad cap/rotor or wire, or just as likely- a bad coil. I'd be a nice donut and coffee it's spark.

Pertronix Module.

Remotely possible that it's the coil, which would also cause some bad symptoms in the tach, but I would trash the Pertronix and get something different first.  Even replacing it with points would be easy and tell you whether the module is good or bad.

 I'm not sure why the fuel pressure gauge is reading so low, but here's another hint, that's not got anything to do with the issue. 

Just to make this more difficult: the problems started right after an engine rebuild. 

I'll ask again- is the valve adjustment or timing changing?

Some of the problems sound electrical, but some don't (low fuel pressure).

One electrical issue that might affect fuel pressure is a bad ground to the fuel pump. A quick check would be to run a separate ground wire from the fuel pump straight back to the battery to see if that fixes the fuel pressure issue. And while at the fuel pump, you could check to see if the supplied voltage is what it should be.

 Valve adjustment and timing are good and steady. 

Here's another clue: the tach is good. 

OK, I give...Muffler bearings are bad!

Or, a plug/wire.

What fuel pump?  I see block off plate so not OEM mechanical.  Rotary (quality) pump or Empi/Facet electronic ******** pump?

Where is pump mounted?  Facets don't pull so need to go under gas tank (so they can push) - best place for a rotary too --- along with filter too.

Is gas tank old?  Perhaps rust/varnish is clogging the OEM brass strainer sock in bottom of tank.  Ethanol gas is great a removing crud from old gas tanks and gas lines - but the stuff goes somewhere and causes clogs.

New engine - could a rubber gas hose be crimped or metal gas hose bent.  Are fuel lines old and maybe internally collapsed?

I think Cole must know whats wrong...this may be a test to see who has the right guess.

That low fuel pressure will be an issue under load! 

I'm sure it's a test. It's like a mystery novel- you get a couple of intriguing red herrings, just enough clues to make you think you can solve it, but have no ability to use your own senses to make a reasoned determination.

Eventually Hercule Poirot will come and show us all the errors of our ways. 

Strange v i b r a t or actually got sensored to ******** ? 

Yes, Wolfgang uses strange V i b r a t o r s.  Now we all know.

The fuel pressure gauge is pulsing - what does that tell you?

You said you changed the fuel pump and the problem remained.....which problem ? The stumbling engine problem or the low fuel pressure ?........Do you have a distributor  with points and condenser ?......Bruce

One electrical issue that might affect fuel pressure is a bad ground to the fuel pump.

The squirrel-ly tach and stumbling at higher RPMs could well be a grounding issue.  Perhaps the mesh ground to trans was messed with during new engine install.  The mesh strap can deteriorate and the end connection corrode.  Can always add another mesh ground.  Or its points/condenser, pointless ignition or coil intermittent failure

Multiple ground straps are insurance against annoying BS problems like this. I have three from engine/trans to chassis. One is a failure waiting to happen.

Solved my hard start problem.

The issue of the stumbling engine and the twitchy tach were both solved by removing the Petronix module and putting points back in. 

The tach and engine run great now! It's my first real chance  to really run her up since the rebuild, and she runs fantastic!

So congratulations to Stan and Gordon!

Cole 

I'm telling you all (again and again): they're garbage.

Stan, is it just the Petronics module you don't like or is it the whole concept of electronic points? 

 Is there another electronic module you prefer? 

I ask because I do want to go back to electronic ignition, I hate points! 

IMO, there is nothing wrong with a good electronic ignition system

The Pertronics is poorly made and has a high failure rate.

Yeah, AL pretty much sums it up.  Electronic ignitions, by design concept, are a great idea and can provide better overall performance and far longer "tune" life than points. 

They are, however, heat-sensitive electronic components forced to sit in a very hostile environment full of spurious electrical interference AND lots of heat.  

"Hey!  Let's put some transistors within a couple of inches of pulsed, 40,000 volts and, OH!  Lets make them sit at 100 degrees for long periods of time!  That'll cook 'em, for sure!  And don't forget to heat-soak them at swings over 150F, too!"

Yes, you can design and select components that will survive in that environment, but they cost more money and if you're in a competitive environment, well.....  

MSD modules seem to survive well, but may require that you use their distributor so they'll fit - That could be a real plus if you are currently running a "009" - Both MSD and Magna-Spark have much better advance curves.  The CB Performance "Magna-Spark" modules seem to last, too (same distributor housing issue may apply).  If you design well and build with better quality parts it will survive in the intended environment.

Jethro posted:

IMO, there is nothing wrong with a good electronic ignition system

I never said there was. If this is a defense of Pertronix, however-- I respectfully disagree. They're garbage.

I'm not at all familiar to the VW Air Cooled version(s) of pertronics modules, but I do have a lot of experience with Pertronics with Ford V-8s.  The biggest issue with the pertronics modules is that they try to put all the electronics into a small package inside the distributor cap.  Great concept, but hard to make it trouble free.

Good EFI systems have a controller mounted far away from heat sources, while inside the dizzy, there are just a few magnets that trigger ignition when they pass by each other rather than using points that have to make contact with each other.

ALB posted:

The Pertronics is poorly made and has a high failure rate.

Are we talking about the device that replaces just the points or the whole ignition system coil and all? 

I've been using a compu-fire setup reliably for years but there is no module just the gizmo that replaces the points.

Stan Galat posted:

Jethro posted:

IMO, there is nothing wrong with a good electronic ignition system

I never said there was. If this is a defense of Pertronix, however-- I respectfully disagree. They're garbage.

We're saying the same thing...  I just get really busy at work, and try to post meaningful replies with too few words

Cole Thompson- posted:

Stan, is it just the Petronics module you don't like or is it the whole concept of electronic points? 

 Is there another electronic module you prefer? 

I ask because I do want to go back to electronic ignition, I hate points! 

http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2010.htm

I have one and it works great. 

It is important to NOT use solid core spark plug wires with Pertronics products.   You need shielding from all the electrical noise.

Robert M posted:

Cole Thompson- posted:

Stan, is it just the Petronics module you don't like or is it the whole concept of electronic points? 

 Is there another electronic module you prefer? 

I ask because I do want to go back to electronic ignition, I hate points! 

http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2010.htm

I have one and it works great. 

Is this the best bang for the buck? I've been waiting for my P module to kick the bucket before upgrading my system on the 2110 stroker...

Rusty- I'm only talking about the replacement points module. Between here and the Samba there are frequent instances of the module dying and stranding car owners. The common advice is to keep an extra distributor (complete with points, condenser, cap and hold down bracket in place so it's already timed) in the car should you ever be stuck. As Jethro and Gordon mentioned, they're just not built with the right components to survive inside a distributor (and hot engine compartment) long term. 

I have heard of MSD ignition control boxes failing when subjected to the heat of the engine compartment as well, and this is why they come with longer leads- so you can mount it away from the heat.

I have also read that while a properly adjusted new set of points will actually outperform an electronic points replacement module, because of wear and point pitting/build up it isn't long at all before the module provides superior performance. So, since most people don't like constantly filing/adjusting points and re-setting timing, you can understand why they're so popular. Al

Cole Thompson- posted:

Stan, is it just the Petronics module you don't like or is it the whole concept of electronic points? 

 Is there another electronic module you prefer? 

I ask because I do want to go back to electronic ignition, I hate points! 

I hate points as well. Always have.

Get a Compu-Fire from CB, or get the Magna-Spark II.

Just avoid Pertonix like it has a disease, because it'll make you break out in hives.

Stan, sounds like good advice.  May have to follow up one day.  My original elect points went south after a few minutes of hot running at the Carlisle autocross circuit a couple of years ago.  Never really understood why, but I was pushing it (first in class, BTW) and the engine got hotter than normal, certainly.  It was a hot day too. Might have been a heat failure.  I recall that my carbs boiled out and suffered some vapor lock too, after the heats. All that settled when engine cooled. As to electric woes, Just bought another set, different mfr, and pressed on.  They are so simple to install, rather than have a whole back-up dizzy at the ready, why not just keep a spare module, and do the emergency R&R if needed??

PS: I had all the other symptoms too, espy the bouncy tach, which i knew was fine, since was rebuilt w/ VDO innards.  Magna-Spark, MSD, crank-fire.  That would be the bomb, I think.  All mounted in a cool-ish place.  Maybe one day . . .

At Carlisle we also had thought bad coil, and changing that out seemed to offer improvement, but not an actual fix.

I have always wondered about the module vs heat generated in a closed engine compartment.