Thinkin' about a CB Performance turn-key dyno tuned stroker motor.........

Anybody have input?
CB is located down the Ca central valley from me so I would guess that they could get things dialed in right for my elevation & temperature needs. I would like to side-step the tuning hassles that I went through on my last "shade tree" 2110 motor.
Thanks, Ernie
http://www.cbperformance.com/turnkeys.asp

I have a 1915 that Pat Downs at CB made for my car and I think it's great. They have one of the best reputations in the business. Wee assembled my car (an '06 Beck) at the Carlisle show last year and the engine was stricly bolt-in/fill-up/crank. It was perfect right out of the box.

Try to get a printout of the RPM - Hp/Torque chart. It makes for a great addition to your custom service manual or a wall poster. After I had my heads rebuilt with larger valves to accomodate a 4-1 header, the shop ran the combo in on their engine dyno. I was not aware they were going to do this. Unfortunately his purpose was to run the combo in, not to measure max power, so he stopped at 5000RPM. He gave me all the numbers in a table format. I took the info and put it into Excell and my computer drew a nice little graph for me. Horsepower goes straight up off the chart and the torque approximates a horizontal line.

I'm thinking of asking for a rear wheel dyno run for Xmas. A local shop will give you two pulls for $80.

They are definitely one of the top notch builders in the business. You can't go wrong. Anyway Ernie, why are you swapping your motor so soon?

There is no substitute for a Dyno tuned engine..

I bought a second (computer controlled) dyno recently that I'm installing as we speak.

Anyone knows where to get a good type IV longblock for my 914? Thanks in advance for the advice.

Can someone give me some input on a CB 2110 motor Is it to much motor for the speedster is the smaller motor a better choice for the car ??

Re: the 2110, John, it all depends on what you want to do with your car. I can tell you that my little 2366 gets me down the road in fine fashion, and I was never happy with the 1641 I threw away.
If you go big, do it with good advice, a maintenance plan and good brakes.
One thing may lead to another; be prepared financially.

John & Ernie,

I have 18,000 miles on my CB 2110, including three long trips of 4200 miles, 4000 miles, and 1300 miles. My single problem came from a broken ALT housing case with a resulting loss of fan belt and a small seep at the sand seal that cleared up after break-in. It has been problem free since those minor break-in issues.

I owned a 1776 prior to the 2110 so that is my point of reference as far as power. The difference is quantum in terms of usable torque and running at RPMs on highways.

I think the highest praise that can be given to an engine is it's reliability... with that said; I would drive it to either coast tomorrow with confidence. And I would drive it at 80 Mph all day long (and have).

Hi john..... The 2110 seems to be the upgrade stroker motor of choice at this forum. I had one in an old VW convert, but I think my Speedy is a much better, safer platform. Here's some info on how the CB offerings do on the dyno.
http://www.cbperformance.com/dyno/dynocharts.html
....Ricardo you asked why I would want a new motor so soon. The fact is that I am very pleased with my so called "Mexi-crate-junk-1915" from VS.
Now that I have it cooled down for the 100* summers around here, I'm confident that I could drive it for years.
But, as you know, "boys will be boys" and those long winter nights are now here. Like all good fishermen, I'm dreaming of "the next big season". Heck, all I gotta do is pay off last summer's septic tank repairs ($4200) and keep payin' the kid's college tuition and car insurance and I'm home free! What else should an ol' geezer spend his dough on?

FWIW: Specs on my CB 2110 (Mid level performance build)

Case - CB raised roof aluminum case, 10 mm stud inserts, full flowed

crankshaft - C. B. forged chromoly, shot peened, nitrited, 8 dowel pins,VW journals

connecting rods - C. B. 5.400 race rods w/ARP bolts

flywheel - C. B. 12.5 lbs, 8 dowel

glan nut - C. B. chromoly

pistons & liners - Mahle centrifugally cast liners and
forged pistons, pins with teflon buttons

head studs - C. B. 10 mm chromoly

cylinder heads - C. B. 044 super mag w/40 mm x 35.5 mm stainless steel valves, hi-rev valve springs, chromoly retainers,hardened valve locks, unleaded valve seats, CNC ported round port

rocker shafts - C. B. solid shafts w/forged 1.1:1 ratio rocker arms, swivel feel adjusting screws

camshaft - #2242 (290 deg. duration x .380 lift), cam followers lightweight 29 mm head

pushrods - lightweight chromoly

clutch - stage 1 Kennedy w/200 mm disc

oil system - C. B. thin line oil sump (2 qt), 30 mm
full flow oil system, offset oil cooler (96 Plate w/Fan in rear left wheel well.)

carburation - 44 IDF carburetors, C. B. Performance hex bar linkage and intake manifold system, K&N air filters,with Intermeccanica water shields and set of CNC "Carrera" tops + custom built filter screens.

ignition system - Bosch 009 mechanical advance distributor
( rpm rev limit) and coil system with multi spark MSD 6-A ignition

Late Model Doghouse, all tin painted Porsche "Seal Gray".

Well Ernie; you could upgrade it like I did; just a top end job without splitting the case (basically port your heads or install big valve ported heads, upgrade valvetrain, ratio rockers, exhaust, etc.) or go all out, split the case and install counterweighted crank, performance cam, etc. As I said and Jim has shown you, if you choose to go with a new build you can't go wrong with CB Performance or Chico Performance; they're both the pick of the litter in terms of Type I builders.

Thanks guys you have helped me to make the correct choice of motor . I will get CB 2110 with the upgrade trans and 4 wheel disk brakes.

Jim, John, or Ernie,
What does a crated turnkey 1915 from CB sell for or the 2110 like yours, Jim? Also what are the HP ratings when built for moderate performance/high-reliability? Thanks.

Tom,

My 2110 came in a package deal with the Speedster through Henry (IM). Henry uses CB Built engines in most of his Type I powered cars and so I'm guessing they have a deal set up on the engines IM lists as their Type I options. All of that to say, I'm not sure what it cost. Call Pat Downs and ask, use my specs for a guide. It may be a mid level 2110, but all of the parts are high quality and that's what counts in the long run.

This may get a side thread going on the topic of rated HP by the engine builders. I think the Dyno numbers put out by most of the builders are a little optimistic. I may be wrong, but that's an opinion I've formed by reading posts on this and other forums discussing advertised HP. With that said; my 2110's dyno sheet reads: 143 HP @ 5,000 RPMs with 150 Ft Lbs of Torque.

Be wary of individuals or builders claiming mega HP on their engines. Just because they say it (and believe it), doesn't make it true. My bet is that if all of the 100-110 HP 1776s, 130-140 HP 1914s, and 150-160 HP 2110s were Dynoed at the same shop, same day, 90% would be at least 15-20 HP over-rated. Again, that's just an opinion. Of course there are exceptions, like some of the built up engines owned by members of this site that have forgotten more about ACVWs than I'll learn in a lifetime.


All I know is that it feels great from the seat, even with the 3:44 R/P. There's plenty of power to maneuver in traffic at speed, to cruise at higher speeds on Interstates, there's plenty of torque to carry the high R/P in town, and to keep up with other Speedsters on the twisties (except Paul's). The jump from my mid level 1776 to a mid level 2110 was BIG without any sacrifice in reliability.

Thanks Jim. Great to have you back on board and helping to educate us semi-newbies. Have you recorded any 0-60 or 1/4 mile data with your current car?

Keep in mind that guys spending **most** of their time below 5,252 RPM will never experience the "Horsepower" they paid for. This is because HP is a unit of measure that is derived from an engine's **TORQUE** numbers and where they are achieved. Below 5,252 RPM Torque is ALWAYS higher than HP. All dyno graphs that are correct will have TQ and HP cross at 5,252 RPM exactly and thats due to the formulas used.

What this means is that most guys don't interpret a dyno graph correctly, and thats is generally because they look only at PEAK HP and TQ numbers, not nderstanding the importance of a well rounded engine creating flat torque and adequate HP...

Peak numbers sell engines, flat torque curves with healthy numbers increase the grin factor. Torque is all I tune for, it's what you feel in the seat of the pants, it's what increases efficiency and it's what makes a street engine easy/ fun to drive

So, when choosing an engine get ALL the dyno data and look at the entire graph, not just those peak numbers- they mean very little to the overall scope of the engine.

So the moral of the story is to get up to 5,000 RPMs as soon and as often as possible. lol.

Yup, Horsepower = (Torque x RPM) / 5252

For further discussiion of how the formula is derived visit:
http://horsepowersports.com/torque

Oops, also click on "Links" and then clisk "Torque"

Thanks to all you guys for your input!
I finally got thru to Pat Downs (he's a pretty busy guy). Anyway, the bottom line is $5100 out the door for a 2110. He also reccomended a go-to guy here in the Sac area for installation & tech know-how. Turns out that I've had very positive contact with the fellow. Here's his link for all you Sac area guys.
http://www.gregsvw.com/

Ernie; do check pricing with Chico Performance at http://www.steelbuggin.com/ His turnkey 2,110's start at $4,000.00 and go up depending on additional options. You can't go wrong with any of the two but if you can save yourself a few bucks so much the better...

OK... on to the next hurdle: 2110 exhaust in a Speedster. The available 1 1/2" heater boxes look fine to me but, am I "SOL" when it comes to fitting up an after-market header of equal size? I would be fine with an extractor that has a configuation like my 1 3/8" Bugpack with tuck away muffler. However, all of the 1 1/2" "merged" headers I have shopped appear to conflict with the Speedy's body. Am I looking at building a high $$$$ custom unit here?

Kirk's Tri-Mil dual tailpipe muffler is another alternative; even Steve O'Brien has one that's been modified to fit his Suby engine and it works great. If it works with a healthy Suby boxer it'll work fine with a 2,110 cc. The good thing about Kirk's unit is that he has them modified to fit VS's so you're home free there. That's what I installed in my car after the last upgrade, along with the 1-1/2" Dansk heater boxes from CIP (the last time I looked they lowered the price of the pair even more!!).

You could also go with a nice unit from Gene Berg with dual quiet mufflers. Those work fine and look cool and old school too.

Ernie, check CSP for a 1.5 unit that runs duals out the stock locations with 1.5 heater boxes included. I used that unit on the 2001 VS I owned. A local shop can adjust the angle of the rear pipes up a smidgen and then tack on chrome tips.

Look under VW Bug modified units; Super Competition Exhaust.

Main Site Page:
http://www.customspeedparts.com/index.html~

All Right Jim!
Ask the forum and thou shall learn!
From the looks of it, this could be the ticket! How does it sound? I'm definitely not into noisy pipes!
On edit: Does this unit ship from Germany? Frieght cost?

Here it is! Ol' Ern's exhaust solution.

So finally; did you get a custom system?

Ernie; Sweet! I am planning to install an A-1 sidwinder with the same type of muffler to exit out the center. How is the clearence for valve covers ( valve adjustments) or do you have to remove the muffler to get at them? Are they powder coated or raw with paint? I'm sanding and filling in holes on my Beck Outlaw. I have srtripped the interior, and I'm in the process of minimizing the look. sans carpet and dash trim. Looking forward to meeting you and since you are close may some runs in the future. I'm just west of you in Elk Grove (west Laguna}, and I have family out your way in Wilton. You welcome to drop by anytime give me a call and I will give instructions how to find me ,I just off I=5 my number is; 683-4175

Hi Ray & Ricardo!
Pat Downs gave me the # for "Tiger" @ Tiger Performance. He is @714 836 7201. Pat says he has built quite a few motors equipped with Tiger's Sidewinder for both real Pcars & replicas. The fit up is supposed to be pretty good, but you will need to pull the "can" to set your valves. The unit I ordered comes with 1 5/8" pipe, but hooks up well with the CB 1.5 heater box flanges. The muffler is Stainless but the pipes come ceramic or raw. I ordered raw just in case a mod is necessary after I mock it up on my car. The unit is also available with a "dump" style outlet @ the muffler's end.
Looks like we are finally in for about 10 days of damp weather, but I'll give ya a call. Also, Michael Beaucage seems to be ready for a run out our way pretty soon.

Ernie-

I've got an A1 sidewinder in 1-5/8". The fit is fantastic, but you may find the muffler to be a bit loud for your liking. I had the system on my pan-based JPS and the whole thing fit like a glove. The same muffler system on the Intermeccanica had to be modified to clear the rear calipers since the IM engine is 2" further forward (the header remained perfect). As for the sound, you may want to take the outlet of the in/out muffler and run it through a second muffler running east/west across the back apron, and exit out the drivers side rear of the car. I've got this on my car, and the sound is low and mellow at idle, and pretty sweet in the upper register.

As far as the heater boxes- 1-1/2" boxes will fit fine, but I'd talk with Tiger about building some 1-5/8" boxes for you- Dale Bates had this done, and it worked very well (I've got an Espar gas heater, so I run J-pipes)

I hope this helps. You'll really like the exhaust.

"bit loud for your liking".... I hope not, Stan! I'm a "quiet" kinda guy. Tiger assured me that this thing was quiet. I'll have to wait and see. Your added muffler fix cuold give me a way out if I can't stand the noise.

Ernie, good luck with making it quiet. If it helps, there's a non-restrictive cone-shaped jobber you can put into the tailpipe to help cut down on the sharp popping or high-end of the rumble -- kind of the same effect as pushing the Dolby button on a stereo. It dumbs down the dbs a little. I'll research that for you, but I think it's based on tailpipe size ... I have one in my car and it helps a little.

Ricardo -- "Kirk's Tri-Mil dual tailpipe muffler," is getting a lot of play. Remember, the Nardi Horn Button Company has sponsorship here, too!
My question, of course, is when are we going to see some movies?!

Kirk's Tri-Mil is good for a mild 1776 (I had one on my JPS, with said mexi-crate motor), and is a better set-up than the gen-u-wine VW-Mexico header into a big-'ol-can set-up, or the ever-popular Monza exhaust (all of which I ran on the long-suffering 1776).

Putting any of these on a decent 2110 would be like stuffing a potato up the tailpipe. The A1 is the best choice, but Ernie... it's gonna be loud- you heard it here first...

Are you sure about that Stan? Steve O'Brien has a modified
Tri-Mil in his Subytub and it works perfectly. Suby engines are pretty healthy....

Ernie,
My system from Tiger is just right after adding a resonator. It's still a nice deep growl but at a subdued decible.

We're looking down at a mirror in the second shot, right, Terry?
Do you have any clips with the sound in them? Something you could Google or YouTube?
I'm interested in the resonator.

Yes, Cory, that is a mirror.
No sounds recorded, Although I'd be happy to do a phone request.
I will say that the sound before the resonator was quite obnoxious and my right seater wouldn't ride in the car until it was fixed.
My other problem was the downward turn of the tailpipe before the extension and the resonator. I live on a gravel road and as I would drive on it I looked like Pig Pen. BIG cloud of dust as the exhaust hit the gravel.

You've got mail, Terry.