Thinking outside the box.................our 4 cam lookalike

Well since the speedster is up on blocks, I've decided to get something pretty special to her.

We're going to be keeping our 2.0 Type 4 idea alive, however with some twists. We're going for a 4 cam lookalike engine.....upright shroud, twin type 1 fans, 6 volt generator, with 12v internals. 40mm Solex DDH Sidedraft carbs mounted upright as throttle bodies, type 4 1.7 EFI manifolds, cut and modified to work with the solex's. The injectors will be hidden by porsche "cam" covers.

My idea is not to fool anyone, but just make them look twice.

Pictures will follow soon, fab work has already started on the cowling and fan set-up.

Oh MAN ! ! !

PLEASE post progress pics as soon as you can, I LIVE for this kinda stuff!

Gary -

That 4-cam fabrication would definitely up the WOW factor when the engine lid is opened!! I look forward to your photo-journal of your project!

Hey, when you're almost finished building it, if you want some custom, "realistic" stickers done up for the engine . . . you know, valve settings, inlet-outlet, oil filler, air cleaners, lubricant requirements, that sort of thing . . . just ask, OK? Glad to do it.

I did these on the computer:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/Mcoil2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/Mcoil1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/Ccomplete.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/Ceinglass.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/TeamEvil/Cfram.jpg

Not perfect, but not terrible either.

The ultimate is in development as we speak.

Wait till you see what 2008 brings, 100% 3D modeled, authentic with fit, function, practicality and most of all it will be as effective as the DTM.

I'm glad to see that many of you approve of what we're going to do here, we're limited to what we get locally, so what we can't import, we make ourselves.

My engine builder has already created a lot of type 4 conversions and his IMPI fan shroud that he makes for the type 4 is awesome.

TC, I'll deffinatly give you a shout when I'm looking for the smaller details. Those stickers look the part, like I said, I don't want to fool anyone, just make them look twice.

So far things are going well, I've just got my set of ceramic coated 2.0 60" 96mm flat top pistons for the engine and next will be trying to source another 40 SOLEX DDH carb which is proving pretty freaking hard. I'm dropping off a box of goodies for him next week so hopefully we can then start the test fitting by the end of the month.

Update to follow tomorrow with some pictures.

- G

Gary, some info for you;

http://speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=2442

and this is a beaut!

http://speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=3052

damn, bruce, when I click on the link, it tells me to register again.......

gary, search "dario" and look at the threads marked carrera or shroud
very nice

Got it..........thanks mate.

As Jake mentioned in his post on that page, we've also decided on a mixture of alli and cf in order to make this.

Awesome link........It's nice to know that I'm not hitting unchartered territory here.....

I am familiar with the South African made IMPI shroud and it certainly appears to have the right concept. I remember the creator of it stating that he used the DTM as a template to create it over on the STF several years ago.

My approach is a bit different, but it has been inthe works for a couple of years already and was recently rejuvenated by a replicar manufacturer that wants to help me make it a reality.

I plan to mix the 4 cam look and overall appeal with more modern characteristics of effectiveness on the TI and TIV engine while keeping the cost justifiable for a thoroughly developed and proven component.

I just finalized plans for myself and my Engineer to spend a solid week in Jackson Hole Wyoming doing 4 cam shroud research and attaining 3D solid models of the entire cooling system installed on the various flavors of 4 cam engine as well as acquiring running temperature data from actual stock and performance 4 cam engines while visiting with Bill Doyle of Rennwagen Motor Company who basically does nothing but 4 cam engine work.

I will mix this data with the same data that I recently collected from a similar trip to Beck Speedster headquarters in Bremen Indiana where I spent two days with my data acquisition equipment installed in a 2007 Beck Speedster gathering data that spanned from engine bay pressures, fan inlet temps, head temps, oil temps and 14 other channels. Our advantage with this type of development is extensive data that was gathered from 2002-late 2004 during my cooling observations on both TI and TIV engines as well as having the equipment to actually see exactkly what is being done inside the cooling system with each air foil or deflector change. Having successfully completed the TI DTM development after 8 solid months of effort also helps the confidence level and having manufacturing set up in house for all the major components is also going to make things more simple.

The interior design of the shroud will be a challenge, especially on the Type 1 engine with it's exhaust port location but I feel confident that we can make a fully functional, period correct, more modern enhanced arrangement at a price that is reasonable.

Gary, I wish you and IMPI the best of luck, I am sure he will come up with something that is going to make you happy.

Jake, if that works well, I'm going to re-think the BMW engine in my Spyder. Please keep us abreast of developments.
And Gary, Type IVs anywhere throw my switch! PHOTOS, PHOTOS, PHOTOS!
Woo-Hoo! The guy who does the hard stuff on my car is the son of a guy who used to teach the four-cam in North America. I'll happily print and mail anything you post to him -- it'll make his frigging year!

Yes- rethink adding the radiator, never an excuse for that!

Speaking of 4 cams, I'll be working amongst 15 different 4 cammers,a Carrera Abarth, an RS-60 and a 1955, 550A among others while designing the X4C cooling system in late October.

Jake, I do have a foam shape of the Cam 4 cooling shroud . I was bored and shaped one up out of green foam. I do have a few ideas for the aluminum alternator support. If I can just get a bit more extra time I could make it come together.

Well I've been working on my car seeing that the engine is being built 3 hours away from my house. It's hard keeping myself busy with the small jobs, but at least some work has started.

I just received my 96mm ceramic coated 2.0 pistons, so that's gone into the build and the fan has gone off to the engineering works, so that they can start on that. We've decided to use a 12v generator as locally, 6V units are VERY hard to source and then we still have to get it modified.

I'm going through next weekend to have a look see, so I'll be sure to take pictures. Also, the unit that's going on my speedster will be all metal construction.

Thanks for all of the comments. One thing, if ANYONE has any links to any 4 cam motors, close ups, individual components, then PLEASE, PLEASE post them up as over here we don't have any access to a real motor and are going only on pictures that we can get off the net.

Cheers

Jake while in Jackson Hole WY, my former silver blue C speedster with your Type IV is there somewhere just sitting .....

Alan, do you know who has it there???

we will be doing a faom sculpture of the 4 cam shroud as well while we are at Bill Doyle's shop, being able to fit it perfectly while we are there as well as get most of the modeling done will be the main objective along with data acquisition from the real thing.

The cooling fan is going to be our biggest challenge as new ones cost 1100.00 IF you can find them. we are more than likely going to end up manufacturing the cooling fan fro absolute scratch in house

Of course these will only be availble on Raby Built engines ? Im guessng .

Please tell us you may sell them in Kit form. I think it would sell very very well.

You know ? This was something I wanted early on when I started the D project. Im just glad someone had the smarts to make it happen.

You can be sure the fans wont be cheap. to get them up to a usable quality that can hold up. Thats the biggist hurtle. I just hope Jake can make um.

These will be available on my engines only during the first couple of years. This is more due to the fact that I have a huge desire to experience most everything associated with install, use and results of anything I develop before the off the shelf customer gets an opportunity to experience it. A cooling system is an odd beast, totally unnexplained things can occur on different engines and thats what I want to learn in the lab and in the field before ever passing this onto the enthusiasts that love these cars.

After a couple years of experience I may decide to sell them in kit form, similar to the various stages of my "DTM" system to individuals- only time will tell and I make no promises.

These cooling systems will be available also through Special Edition (Beck)for new car builds as soon as I have 6 months of (successful)time on the systems outside the lab, in my personal cars.

This is because Carey and Kevin have stepped up to assist me with the significant financial burden of this development. The systems will not be sold to any other replicar manufacturer or re-seller of engine components. A pedigreed component that is truly developed is not cheap to create and isn't for the faint of heart, thanks to dedicated network associates like Carey and Kevin we'll be able to get resuklts twice as fast as usual.

Myself and my Engineer, Tom leave for Jackson Hole Wyoming for phase one of this development in less than 10 days. We'll share solid models of the proposed arrangement as soon as possible.

One thing you can take to the bank- if this system doesn't function as well as my DTM system currently does we'll throw the whole idea in the trash. Effectiveness is my primary objective, not looks and not the WOW factor. I'll leave those things to the guys with the shiny magazine ads.

Vintage races where held at North Island Naval Air station in Coronado, Cal (San Diego) last weekend. They have open pits. Had opportunity to view several real 4-cammers up close and racing. They sure do fill up the engine compartment. SWEET!

David - are you back in SoCal for the winter? That event sounds cool!

Hey Jim, back in SOCal for winter, and so far winter has been about 75 or 80 degrees!

Yeah, open pit events are great. That is why I have come to love Vintage racing. i saw a lot of these cars when they were new - back in the day. Now days,vintage owners/drivers are very friendly and talkative. And many of these cars have real pedigrees. The announcer is always telling you who the original drivers were - Rindt, Bonnier, Gurney, Donahue, Penske, Follmer, and on and on. A veritable history of Trans Am, Can Am and SCCA nationals, all in one pit stop. Then you drive home in your own speedy. SWEET!

NICE!!

PLease Jake!! Keep me In mind for a Unit to go On a near stock 1699. Type 1.. for my D.
When you are satisfied you have it the way you want it.

I just made a third 1971 style fan shroud with the heat exits diverted down onto the heads. It a very clean unit and the dog house has been neatly bumped out to allow a type 4 oil cooler in it.
Even the exit cover and spout, that send the heat away.,also look neat and fit like factory. ALL metal Only a little JB weld was used to fill any flaws.

Im putting it on the stock 1600 for now and will stay there Until l build the second 1699cc engine this time myself.. That will be a while from now. SO I can wait.

I am still building the electric heater system for the beetle and already have extra's of every thing to do the same to the D I have crunched the BTUs and came up with Just shy of 3800 BTUs .

If what Alan said is correct this should do it. Bare in mind it's not ment to be pushed to full output often. It could kill the battery. But it will burn your nose if your to close even on low
It should be plenty for a beetle . Im not so sure about the D. A top liner may have to be designed to make that work .

Gary? Do you work for Magneti Marelli??

Magneti Marelli??

Nope.......not this Gary

Update: 29-10-2007

Been very slow this side as I'm waiting for bearings for the engine rebuild from the states and the prices are all over the place, so we've had to shop around a bit.

However IMPI has been a bit busy. At the moment the fan has been sent in to be rewelded, (2 x back to back fans, one cooling the heads and the other running through the oil cooler. (well that's the initial plan).

This is the pipe that we're going to use for the initial curve of the mount, once this is done, the rest should be pretty straight forward. We're going to end up having a 6v generator in there, rewired for 12v.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m29/flatfourfan/DSCI0003.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m29/flatfourfan/DSCI0002.jpg

I also managed to pick up a second SOLEX DDH side draft carb that we'll be using as the second throttle body, so things are picking up somewhat.

I also bought a 1500 single port motor for dirt cheap that I can shove in the speedster so that I can sort out the front BMW E30 discs and some other suspension mods that we're trying to do at the same time.

Stay tuned. Update in about 2 weeks.

Hi Gary, Exciting stuff!! I have a question for you. Why the two fans? Most performance engines would have an external(I would guess) and two fans on the one shaft would only add weight, require more hp to run and load the gen. bearings a little more. Just a thought.
Good luck with your projects!!

Hey Bruce

Well we were considering our options here, the first thing that we wanted was to keep the oil cooler in the stock location as well as NOT running an external oil cooler with a thermo controlled fan.

I expect that the extra weight will rob some power off the motor, but the car only weighs 740kg's and the motor should be about the 180bhp mark, so a few hp loss with that extra weight for a less complicated oil set-up is a fair trade I think.

We're not also building this as a performance motor, EFI is being fitted for driveability and ease of tuning, it's bring built as a torquey motor with a bit of extra punch.

Nice noting that actually, I thought of this a while ago and was a bit concerned myself.

http://forums.aircooledtechnology.com/showthread.php?t=1766

Futher to add after a conversation with IMPI.

The fan will in fact be running slower than standard and this will also add more reciprocating weight to the assembly, shaving the flywheel a bit should also help a little.

I don't know what carrera's had for bearings for their old engines, in fact It wouldn't surprise me if they were the same as what VW used.

Nice link, thanks for posting.......I liked the oil cooled position.

you mean the oil cooler position behind the drivers axle? sweet idea. i 'll likely put my 72 row/fan back there.

Yup, my bad, I meant the oil cooler.......

I have just returned from a solid week at Renwagen Motor company spending time with my friend Bill Doyle the foremost 4 cam authority here in the US. There is not another single place in the world where more 4 cam engines and parts remain today.

My engineer, Tom and myself were working on solid models of the various versions of the 4 cam shroud and what was changed as the engine grew throughout the years and the engine was refined. Bill had FIFTEEN different 4 cam engines in his shop and let me dissect them and take as many pics as I wanted to note the cooling system differences internally.

I'll be making a post later today over on my forums explaining what we did, showing some of the solid models and explaining the next stages of the development. We will be making our own fan from scratch using CNC technology, but it will be modeled after the OEM 4 cam cooling fan.

Having seen the various systems and taken over 800 pictures, 22 solid models of everything from the generator stand to the blower housing and internal components I have decided to make this system a member of my "DTM" product line and thats because we will be able to keep the "Down the middle" characteristic of routing the cooling air charge to the cylinders and heads evenly.

Keep up with my progress over on my forums, I expect to have the system developed, lab and field tested on now less than a half dozen engines by mid 2009. The final test will be another mid summer cross country drive with full data acquisition...

You have to see the pictures that I took while at Rennwagen!

DTM V 3.0 "X4CS" is conceived!

Jake, this is AWESOME news, post up the link when you've posted the pictures.

Here is the post on my forums explaining in detail the goal of the development. I have posted very rare 4 cam pics there as well as solid models of the blower housing and other components we'll be making to assist with the "authenticity" of the system...

http://forums.aircooledtechnology.com/showthread.php?p=14047#post14047

Whoa...........nice pictures and an even better write up/ story........thanks for sharing that Jake.

Ps, I placed an order with you guys this week.........nice prices btw.....

- G

Gary,
You are really going all the way! I just fixed mine up with cosmetics. Here are the details. I hope they help you stay motivated.

I pulled the dog house shroud and painted it silver/grey just like the early 356 Super, then I moved the gas lines behind the dog house and made a new pivot for the linkage which moved it down. The fuel pump area is now blocked off with a plate and an electric fuel pump is hiding under the frame. I removed the alternator and installed a new 12 volt generator and put a regulator on the firewall just like original. The Coil is relocated to the front of the dog house shroud and an original 356 Oil Filter can is located where it belongs. (the can is non-functional and the braided lines coming from it go to nipples brazed into place to simulate the original) The generator even has an original 356 end nut (very hard to find !) I obtained an early 356 oil filler/breather can and machined a fitting to replace the billet oil filler that was there (turned out to be a bigger job than I thought!) Finally, I found all of the original decals and put them in place. VOILA !! Now "Poquito Perfecto" looks like she should.

Thanks for the kudos....

Yep, we are going all the way- thats the only way I do things...

That's nice. I was looking at something similar before I decided to go whole hog on this one.

It's all in the details. The stickers etc make that engine........nice work.

Gary,

Have you seen this? http://www.spyderclub.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=5307&highlight=test

Not certain what happened to the development on this effort, but as you can see he had the solution well under way for at least 356 engines....