IaM-Ray posted:I have had a few close calls myself and it certainly gave me reason to pause.
I did not want a roll bar
Can you explain why?
Stan. My set up can be locked/unlocked by the flip of a switch under the dash. I have rarely used the locking option, except when on the track.
Bob - I think I would want some padding on the up-down roll bar uprights on either side just to outside of your seats. A hit from the side could cause you soft noggin to bounce off that hard steel bar on either side (driver or passenger).
Thanks. I will certainly consider that. 
It's a catch 22. This has been a very common discussion on the 911 and 914 boards. I had a rear hoop in my 911 - but it was a vintage design, copying a factory bar, and it sat way back. There was no physical way I could have hit it. Conversely, I installed a very popular brand in the 914-6 and realized immediately it was a death wish. It was only 4-5 inches away from my left ear. Out it came. No helmet/no bar in a 914.
Had a local 16 year get really really hurt a couple of years ago when learning to drive in her dads Miata. He had installed a very common twin hoop roll bar on the car. She clipped a curb making a slow right hand turn and the jostle was enough to cause her head to hit the bar. Both her and her dad were in the hospital for several days as I recall and got a pile of stitches.
I know that we are not trying to make things FIA compliant, but to use the seat back as the only vertical belt support is not a good idea - especially if the seat is able to recline or fold. As stated previously, there are all sorts of diagrams/rule books from the various racing organizations on line showing what belt angles and attachment points are considered safe.
However, also stated prior, these cars have zero safety features. I cant imagine what would happen if one of these cars was t-boned.
SO glad you are ok. If your pan is ok/straight, that pretty car can absolutely be fixed.
Roll bars belong on track cars with a helmet.
I deal with this all the time, especially with our GTS (904). You can build a kick ass street car, or you can build a kick ass track car, or you can try and build a dual purpose car and it won't be as good for either application...
One thing I try and convey to all my clients, you have to think of these cars as a motorcycle on 4 wheels.
I think the discussion is healthy. Different option and choice. Trying to avoid some injuries as much as possible would be good. Since this is a motorcycle on 4 wheels but no helmet 😩
chines1 posted:Roll bars belong on track cars with a helmet.
I deal with this all the time, especially with our GTS (904). You can build a kick ass street car, or you can build a kick ass track car, or you can try and build a dual purpose car and it won't be as good for either application...
One thing I try and convey to all my clients, you have to think of these cars as a motorcycle on 4 wheels.
I actually tell people it reminds me of driving my Vespa; as most motorcycles are much louder and "announce" themselves in traffic, while the Vespa was quiet and less noticeable.
That said, a motorcycle is a great analogy. It should almost be a requisite to have at least operated a motorcycle daily before driving a speedster. It definitely prepares you for all the incidents you will see, that one would otherwise be oblivious to behind the wheel of their large SUV.
Our car's compact size also makes them difficult to see. While originally wanting a black speedster, I'm happy that we purchased such a loud color-especially since my son rides shot-gun quite often. I purposely seek out the roads less traveled when my little guy comes with--I find them more fun and less nerve-racking given the precious cargo.
I'm sure mostly everyone on this forum does a great job of driving their car, as they have become an extension of us. Unfortunately, it's the texting-while-driving, handset holding, distracted drivers that become the issue. There's so many times I wanted to drive my car into SF to work, then I remember all those distracted drivers, red-light runners, traffic congested pot-hole ridden roads--and pass on the thought.
calmotion posted:I think the discussion is healthy. Different option and choice. Trying to avoid some injuries as much as possible would be good. Since this is a motorcycle on 4 wheels but no helmet 😩
Nobody’s stopping you from wearing a helmet 😂
Bob: IM S6 posted:Well, opinions are like you know what, and everyone has one.
I think I’ll keep my roll bar.
Yeah, but Carey’s carries the weight of 10.😊
My spyder will be kept in the mountains and driven primarily on rural roads. Who could get killed on rural roads? James Dean? Hmm.
Tom Blankinship posted:......Nobody’s stopping you from wearing a helmet...
True, but then you pretty much have to grow a moustache:
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ALB posted:IaM-Ray posted:I have had a few close calls myself and it certainly gave me reason to pause.
I did not want a roll bar
Can you explain why?
The distance from my seat/head to the bar was a concern and how to make it fit back far enough that we could still use the ragtop. All in all, Carey and others have discussed the points that I felt were important and so I opted to leave it out and I had recaro's installed with head rests and the belt as high as IM could put in on the seat.
I consider it a motorcycle and try to drive it that way but any moment of inattention can be deadly as the sudden stops are totally unforgiving 
Based on my set up, with how I sit in the car, I am not worried at all about my roll bar.
To me, the advantages of roll over protection outweigh any risk of a head bump. I could bump my head tripping over the door sill and hitting the pavement while getting out of the car.
I have had personal experience with a roll over, so I will take a roll bar in a soft top street car any day. It fits perfectly under the top, does not obscure my vision, and adds a little more safety.
If I wanted to be super safe, perhaps I should wear a Hans device, or whatever that thing is called that Nascar drivers wear for head and neck protection. I could also wear a flameproof driver’s suit.
@Bob: IM S6 any picture you can share
Bob was that with a british car?
calmotion posted:@Bob: IM S6 any picture you can share
If you mean of the roll bar, there is one on page two of this thread. I have others.
IaM-Ray posted:Bob was that with a british car?
A TR6. Horrible cars to drive. Front end heavy with an abominable IRS design.
I’ve driven drop top sports cars for fifty-five years, and always valued whatever I could do to them to make me feel more secure.
Yeah, many british cars were not my favourite, I would like the look but not their mechanicals and I had another friend who did 180's in an mg midgets.
German tech was always my favourite.
I went with an 1969 (only made 1968-1969 for good reason) MGC instead of the TR6. It had supposedly a 2.9+L 6 cyl AH 3000 engine that put out 145 hp. Engine top scales at 600#. I had head shaved to raise compression. Steering was heavy until 80 mph. MGC had 15" triple laced sire wheels vs MGB's 14". 4 Speed with electric overdrive on 3rd and 4th. (Ha, frequently all gears including reverse due to superior Lucas electrics). Fun car but too unreliable so traded it for a '72 914 1.7L. Water pump, front king pins, shocks, main bearing, two 6 volt batteries and speedo all died in '71 - so at least it had low recorded mileage when I traded it in.
Bill Prout, that is an interesting seat you posted. I'd like to know what it's shell is made of. I like the seatbelt guides up top, and the headrests. But, unless you are 5 years old, there is no need to route the waist belts through the seat. Our hip bones will be above the bolsters, even on my lady who weighs 110.
And with regards to restrictiveness of shoulder belts, suck it up. It isn't hard to get used to, and trust me, Lane will feel a whole lot better about riding in one of these clown car contraptions WITH them. I know I do. The crotch belts can be annoying when it's warm out, but other than that, you get used to it. Everything in my car can be reached with all the belts on, including the e-brake, to the right of center and in front of the passenger seat.
The one thing I know is the tubular space frame of my car saved my life. I also know I wouldn't have gotten whiplash had I been wearing the installed 5 point harness, instead of just the lap belt. I have a 4 point rollbar as well, that bolts in, but that is for track use. The likelihood of a rollover on the street is pretty darn low, so like Bob from Canada, I'm calculating my risks as well, but a little differently.
DannyP posted:Bill Prout, that is an interesting seat you posted. I'd like to know what it's shell is made of. I like the seatbelt guides up top, and the headrests. But, unless you are 5 years old, there is no need to route the waist belts through the seat. Our hip bones will be above the bolsters, even on my lady who weighs 110.
And with regards to restrictiveness of shoulder belts, suck it up. It isn't hard to get used to, and trust me, Lane will feel a whole lot better about riding in one of these clown car contraptions WITH them. I know I do. The crotch belts can be annoying when it's warm out, but other than that, you get used to it. Everything in my car can be reached with all the belts on, including the e-brake, to the right of center and in front of the passenger seat.
The one thing I know is the tubular space frame of my car saved my life. I also know I wouldn't have gotten whiplash had I been wearing the installed 5 point harness, instead of just the lap belt. I have a 4 point rollbar as well, that bolts in, but that is for track use. The likelihood of a rollover on the street is pretty darn low, so like Bob from Canada, I'm calculating my risks as well, but a little differently.
@DannyP check out Lane’s link above. That’s where that seat came from @chines1 is checking on it regarding fitment and whether it makes more sense to try and make that seat work by modifying (if needed) or adding the crucial parts of this seat to my existing one.
Question for you. I don’t plan to ever track my car. I’m just trying to keep my face as is in a low speed impact. I’m planning on going 4 point with a cam-lock versus 5 because I’m not that concerned about submarining in a low speed impact and for general comfort and convenience. What are your thoughts?
"I’m just trying to keep my face as is in a low speed impact."
I should post a selfy. I look like I'm wearing war paint. My lovely Lempert wheel has a Lane-shaped bend in it. This was at an impact speed of 20 mph or less.
" I’m planning on going 4 point with a cam-lock versus 5 because I’m not that concerned about submarining in a low speed impact and for general comfort and convenience."
@Tom Blankinship- For most purposes 4 points will be more than enough, Tom, as I think the anti-submarine strap really only comes into play in a high speed rollover. Having been in a high speed desert race car that did 2 3/4 endo's and 3 side rollovers at about 80 or 85mph (there was some 40 feet between the 1st and 2nd touchdowns- you could see orange frame/roll bar paint on the hard pan where the silt had been scraped away) and the only damage being a little bruising on both sides of the upper chest from the shoulder straps, I'm glad it was there. Did it do anything- I don't know, but when you walk away from something like that feeling that it was the ride of a lifetime and you'd do it again in a heartbeat (it really was that thrilling!) if you had the guarantee you'd come out of it without a scratch, everytime since then I've got in an offroad race car I've made sure all 5 points are tied in.
I think of it this way: 20 mph is likely faster than any of us can run. So picture yourself running full-tilt into your steering wheel and windshield. You brace yourself with the wheel and that'll hurt both arms from the wrists to the shoulders, and you still won't be able to stop your face.
Regarding roll bars: I seldom disagree with Cary but I think his comment on roll bars could be taken out of context: roll bars are absolutely for street cars, which is why every modern car has one, integral to the chassis. Our problem here is making them practical, as discussed. Can't use the windshield frame, as that would ruin the look of the car (and cost many thousands). A rear hoop presents its own engineering challenge regarding the top and the occupants' heads (plus not everyone loves the look).
So this thread unpacks what I consider the central fact of these replica cars: You can have vintage style, affordability, or (relative) safety: choose any two. And by "relative" I mean "circa 1967 state-of-the-art." Most of the easy stuff—dual circuit master cylinders, disc brakes, radial tires, crush cage in the steering shaft—comes standard. And, lest we forget, that stuff takes these cars miles beyond the originals. The IRS is another huge improvement that a lot of cars come with.
But impact safety and rollover protection just aren't in the cards for us. Take door bars, for example. That's a safety feature that wasn't mandated until the late 1960s. You could retro-fit your doors with I beams, sure: but what would you attach them to?
Or, hell: bumpers! We ain't got none! Even the ones we have might just as well not be there. You look at bumper science and regulation over the past, say, five decades, then tell me there is any practical way to "upgrade" a plastic Speedster to any post-1950s standard while leaving the car looking even moderately correct. Can't do it.
Crash test data for crumple zones doesn't even really start until the '70s. A VW pan-based replica can't even begin. A tube-framed car could, but the cost of testing would be...very significant.
And so: we choose to live dangerously. Stylishly, but dangerously. That's the choice we make: we are rakish fools, and we better learn to face it.
Drive carefully, my atavistic friends.
Safety concerns are always relative. My wife wants to live forever so she surrounds herself with a 6000 lb SUV. I'm never going to drive a truck on a daily basis so I'm content with a relatively safe sport sedan.
I choose to recreate with motor vehicles. Up until 4 years ago I chose to ride Ducatis. But due to serious injury and threats of divorce from my wife I have since given up 2 wheeled recreation. If my wife was not so concerned about my safety and earning potential I would still be riding bikes.
So my quest for the closest thing to a motorcycle that is acceptable to my wife. 230hp spyder. 2 point restraints with no head rest. May not be the safest thing on the road but its damn sure safer than a bike. Everything is relative.
A properly install roll cage even in a pan based Speedster will stiffen up the frame alot. The problem is it will also be intrusive in such a small car. You'll hit it entering and exiting. It will interfere with vision and top operation. It separates you from your right hander. To avoid skull contact - insulation is required further adding to unsightliness. A helmet would help here to - since you don't know which way you head will bounce. I Carey's comment to cover those race conditions - vs street.
Then there are the flimsy fiberglass seat shells with no steel reinforcements. That fiberglass will shatter sending you backwards in a crash. I cut apart a '70 914 seat and no reinforcement (the 914 has a sturdy rear bulkhead and targa-like roll bar just behind the seats though plus '74 up had the crash beam in the door.
Here's a case from a new Miata flipping on back ice last week (equipt with high summer tires didn't help). The aluminum roll bar probably saved the driver! Darn picture of car on roof was removed from Miata forum .
Ok, so here's the selfy I threatened you with. The poor lighting makes it look even worse. No, I did not break my nose. It's been that way as long as I've owned it, but the light makes it more noticeable.
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Smile, you got a new coupe on the way!
Ouch. If its any consolation, you look better than your car.
All things are better with time. Ask me how I know.
Wow!
You're looking more like Paul Mossberg every day....
Hope you're not seeing/feeling any residual stuff. Good stuff for the coffee machine at work, too - just show 'em your car photo.
Lane Anderson posted:Ok, so here's the selfy I threatened you with. The poor lighting makes it look even worse. No, I did not break my nose. It's been that way as long as I've owned it, but the light makes it more noticeable.
You’re right. That’s not gonna buff out :-)
Last time I looked like that, someone stepped on my hand as I was leaving the bar.... 
Tom, thanks, I hadn't realized that Lane posted that seat. It looks like if you contact them they can be optioned however you'd like as far as slots and vinyl/leather/belt guides, etc.
I chose to go with a modern camlock harness this time, it just makes it WAY easier to belt up. Snap, snap, snap, snap. Done. The latch/buckle/camlock stays with one of the lap belts. So I do the crotch, other lap, then the shoulders. Very quick, so you're more likely to use it.
I went for 5 point because it's required on the track, along with helmet, arm restraints, and rollbar for all open cars. I still have to put my Halon system in, a fire system is required as well. If I had a factory built coupe I could throw on a helmet and go racing with a lap/shoulder 3 point, and none of the above, go figure.
So to answer your question Tom: If you do 4 points, if your butt is all the way back in the seat, and your lap belt is low on the hips, you may not need the crotch belt. But if you tighten the shoulder belts, it pulls the lap belt upward, so your call. My call is WITH the crotch belt. I ran the belts through the seam in the seat bottom, cut a slot in the fiberglass seat bottom and grommeted it, then ran the belt back and attached to the aluminum floor just in front of the steel angle that connects the frame rails. The lap belts are bolted to welded tabs on the frame, and the shoulder belts go through the firewall and wrap around the rear 2" hoop that follows the top of the car just behind the doors. So all points are very secure, and I'm not going anywhere.
edsnova posted:... we choose to live dangerously. Stylishly, but dangerously. That's the choice we make: we are rakish fools, and we better learn to face it.
This could (and perhaps should) be our motto. Self-delusion is a powerful impulse, but it doesn’t change the reality of what we are doing here— risking our lives for the thrill gained from driving something more cool than safe. There are a thousand ways to go faster, more safely, for a lot less money, but we choose to mix it up in modern traffic in conveyances that can really barely be called cars at all, to say nothing of pretending safety.
Almost everything worthwhile in life has risk attached to it. Finding the appropriate personal risk: return ratio defines (to a large extent) who we are as individuals, and drives most of the decisions we make. Each of us has to make those decisions on an ongoing basis, but most of us don’t— the calculus changes as we age and our reflexes get slower, or if the reward of living dangerously just isn’t as great.
But the facts regarding the lack of safety are baked in the cake. They don’t change, they don’t really improve. Sometimes it takes something like this to remind ourselves of just how precarious our situation really is.
And to Ed,even though modern open cars have them, they are engineered to NOT contact your head. The problem is our cars are so small it's very difficult to find the space to put bars in and keep your head away from them. Most if not almost all have lowback seats.
I agree about bumpers, but am extremely grateful for the strength of the tubular space frame that protected me from major harm. The glass will crumple, until you get to some steel, as Lane and I(and others!) have unfortunately found out. Lane's car stopped when it got to steel, which is when he slammed forward. If he'd had a 3 or 4 point belt(and I had my shoulders on), the only pain would have been the car.
And I'm going to reiterate a little. Your "freedom of motion" and claustrophobia ISN'T worth your face, and justifying it this way is a fools paradise.
"And I'm going to reiterate a little. Your "freedom of motion" and claustrophobia ISN'T worth your face, and justifying it this way is a fools paradise."
Absolutely! I mean, compare the before and after pics below.
BEFORE:
AFTER:
Sad, isn't it?
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DannyP posted:Your "freedom of motion" and claustrophobia ISN'T worth your face, and justifying it this way is a fools paradise.
It isn’t worth the risk to you, but maybe it is to somebody else. Based on how many people run 2-point belts, maybe it is to a lot of us.
The fact of the risk isn’t a variable, but someone’s desire to run it is. You’re making your risk: reward analysis, other people are making theirs.
Stan Galat posted:DannyP posted:Your "freedom of motion" and claustrophobia ISN'T worth your face, and justifying it this way is a fools paradise.
It isn’t worth the risk to you, but maybe it is to somebody else. Based on how many people run 2-point belts, maybe it is to a lot of us.
The fact of the risk isn’t a variable, but someone’s desire to rin it is. You’re making your risk: reward analysis, other people are making theirs.
Yeah, some of us have more to lose from a face rearrangement than others 😂