This will NOT buff out

Stan Galat posted:

DannyP posted:

Your "freedom of motion" and claustrophobia ISN'T worth your face, and justifying it this way is a fools paradise.

It isn’t worth the risk to you, but maybe it is to somebody else. Based on how many people run 2-point belts, maybe it is to a lot of us.

The fact of the risk isn’t a variable, but someone’s desire to run it is. You’re making your risk: reward analysis, other people are making theirs. 

 

Many folks ride motorcycles without helmets.  I wouldn't even consider that.  Did I ever break the ton on my bikes.  Every time I rode.  I agree that everyone sets their own risk. 

And my wife scares the sh*t out of me.  Not risking that wrath.

FWIW , post military I spent the first 25 years of my career as a department director at a large Hospital Trauma Center in SoCal. Long story short, I've seen patients survive the most horrendous traffic accidents and conversely, saw patients who died in accidents that were not much more than a fender-bender. 

As some of you may remember, Ginny & I were involved in an accident a few years back while leading a caravan of SOCers to one of our SLO events.

As we were traveling north approaching this intersection, the silver Toyota was in the southbound left-turn lane waiting for us to pass. The driver of the white pickup was texting while driving and rear-ended the Toyota pushing it directly into our path. In spite of possessing cat-like Kung Fu reflexes, I had no time or room to react and T-boned the Toyota at 45 MPH, spinning it into the position you see with white pickup parked behind.

We both walked away from this accident with Ginny sustaining a only a couple of bruises on her ankle and myself staying as Guapo as ever. 

Moral of the story; Whether you walk away or perish in any accident is mostly a matter of chance. Our good friend, @Stan Galat eloquently sums it up...

"Almost everything worthwhile in life has risk attached to it. Finding the appropriate personal risk: return ratio defines who we are as individuals (re: replica 356 owners), and drives most of the decisions we make. But the facts regarding the lack of safety are baked in the cake. They don’t change, they don’t really improve. Sometimes it takes something like this to remind ourselves of just how precarious our situation really is." - Stanistan Emperor for Life

Each day is a gift, so enjoy the ride, my friends! 

All this talk of seat belts reminds me of my first ride in a TRG race-prepared Porsche GT3 on the track.  The friggin car takes off like Saturn V rocket, blasting down the front straight and headed for turn one - a 90º sweeper to the left, followed closely by another 90º left.  I'm just beginning to recover from the launch when I see the turn coming up.....Really fast.  I brace for when he hits the brakes but......Nothing happens.  We're still going full tilt.  The driver is concentrating, on what, I don't have a clue, but what little I can see of his right eye looks pretty serious.  All I can think of is "We're gonna miss the first turn!  I'm gonna die!" and the turn is still coming.  

WAAAY past the point when I would be leisurely applying the brakes for a graceful turn entrance, he finally JUMPS on them, seemingly making the car almost stand on the front bumper and cranks the car deep into the turn about the time I thought we were past it.  I swear to God as I'm typing this, I thought my body was gonna rip right out of those seat belts and go smashing through the windshield and land in the next town.  The force pushing me forward while those blessed belts held me in place was beyond scary.  I could not believe I wasn't tearing right out of them.  A high degree of shock set in...   And we were still going.

Whoosh!  Around the turn we go at about 75 G's of side force, helmet healing over to the right and rattling as we bounce along the accordion curbings  Acceleration slams my helmet back and we head to the next turn to repeat the last process.  "HOLY $#!+"

There were 11 turns on that track.  I know.....I counted each one for three laps.  Thought I was gonna die on the first turn of the first lap, but somehow we survived.  On every next turn on the first lap I thought THAT was the turn when I became part of the dashboard, but there wasn't even a dashboard in there..... Just a couple small switch/gauge panels and the front of the roll cage.  Still, those belts kept me firmly in my seat, G-Forces be damned, while we tore around the track at a "normal race pace". Sometime around turn 6 I noticed that there wasn't any blood or race suit material imbedded in the front of the cockpit.  Little reassurance, but at least something to hold on to.

The second lap was just as radical the first but sometime in the middle of lap 2, I began to wonder - How the hell do Real race drivers possibly stand this?  And for a couple of hours at a time?  The punishment on your body is almost inhuman and yet, there they are.  By the end of the third lap I REALLY wanted out and we headed in to Pit Lane, the same guy got me out of my belts (he had a smirk when he saw how white my face was - If I wasn't sick I shoulda smacked him) and I managed to crawl out of the car and puke on the other side of the lane barrier.  Haven't gotten back into a GT3 since.

I have 3-point inertial belts in Pearl - they came from the same Chrysler car as the seats and I mounted them in Pearl as they were mounted in their original car.  The shoulder belt is positioned on the roll bar with a "whiz-through" belt guide over the seat back and the bar now has reinforced and welded mounts.  For the "grandfatherly" driving I do these days, they're sufficient - Or at least I thought so until this thread.  "Seat Belts Save Lives" ain't no joke.

" In spite of possessing cat-like Kung Fu reflexes,"   Baaaaaaaa.. good one..

Gordon Nichols posted:

All this talk of seat belts reminds me of my first ride in a TRG race-prepared Porsche GT3 on the track.  The friggin car takes off like Saturn V rocket, blasting down the front straight and headed for turn one - a 90º sweeper to the left, followed closely by another 90º left.  I'm just beginning to recover from the launch when I see the turn coming up.....Really fast.  I brace for when he hits the brakes but......Nothing happens.  We're still going full tilt.  The driver is concentrating, on what, I don't have a clue, but what little I can see of his right eye looks pretty serious.  All I can think of is "We're gonna miss the first turn!  I'm gonna die!" and the turn is still coming.  

WAAAY past the point when I would be leisurely applying the brakes for a graceful turn entrance, he finally JUMPS on them, seemingly making the car almost stand on the front bumper and cranks the car deep into the turn about the time I thought we were past it.  I swear to God as I'm typing this, I thought my body was gonna rip right out of those seat belts and go smashing through the windshield and land in the next town.  The force pushing me forward while those blessed belts held me in place was beyond scary.  I could not believe I wasn't tearing right out of them.  A high degree of shock set in...   And we were still going.

Whoosh!  Around the turn we go at about 75 G's of side force, helmet healing over to the right and rattling as we bounce along the accordion curbings  Acceleration slams my helmet back and we head to the next turn to repeat the last process.  "HOLY $#!+"

There were 11 turns on that track.  I know.....I counted each one for three laps.  Thought I was gonna die on the first turn of the first lap, but somehow we survived.  On every next turn on the first lap I thought THAT was the turn when I became part of the dashboard, but there wasn't even a dashboard in there..... Just a couple small switch/gauge panels and the front of the roll cage.  Still, those belts kept me firmly in my seat, G-Forces be damned, while we tore around the track at a "normal race pace". Sometime around turn 6 I noticed that there wasn't any blood or race suit material imbedded in the front of the cockpit.  Little reassurance, but at least something to hold on to.

The second lap was just as radical the first but sometime in the middle of lap 2, I began to wonder - How the hell do Real race drivers possibly stand this?  And for a couple of hours at a time?  The punishment on your body is almost inhuman and yet, there they are.  By the end of the third lap I REALLY wanted out and we headed in to Pit Lane, the same guy got me out of my belts (he had a smirk when he saw how white my face was - If I wasn't sick I shoulda smacked him) and I managed to crawl out of the car and puke on the other side of the lane barrier.  Haven't gotten back into a GT3 since.

I have 3-point inertial belts in Pearl - they came from the same Chrysler car as the seats and I mounted them in Pearl as they were mounted in their original car.  The shoulder belt is positioned on the roll bar with a "whiz-through" belt guide over the seat back and the bar now has reinforced and welded mounts.  For the "grandfatherly" driving I do these days, they're sufficient - Or at least I thought so until this thread.  "Seat Belts Save Lives" ain't no joke.

You missed your calling as a writer, seriously.

Tom, you mean you felt your face move with the G force against the .....

I've been riding fast/powerful motorcycles for over 30 years; I've accepted a certain (high) degree of danger, mostly from distracted texters, weavers, millennials and just plain old poor drivers. You generally don't survive even a 20 mph mc accident as well as you would in any car although I have walked away from a 60 mph end over end on my 1980 GPZ 750.....many years ago. I think I can accept a Speedster with or without the best seat belt set-up. 

And I have ridden sans-helmet in States that allow it. Usually just for a few minutes to say I did. And it felt GREAT 

Maybe I'll combine the two levels of safety

I thought Lane might benefit from one of these Swedish Bicycling helmets, but in retrospect, nothing would have saved his forehead short of a racing helmet.

Stan Galat posted:

DannyP posted:

Your "freedom of motion" and claustrophobia ISN'T worth your face, and justifying it this way is a fools paradise.

It isn’t worth the risk to you, but maybe it is to somebody else. Based on how many people run 2-point belts, maybe it is to a lot of us.

The fact of the risk isn’t a variable, but someone’s desire to run it is. You’re making your risk: reward analysis, other people are making theirs. 

 

Stan, we usually agree, but not on this one I'm afraid. I'm VERY happy to not be one of the "many people" this time. Been that way all my life, the masses don't usually have much influence.

I've been around Lime Rock for about 20 laps in an older GT3, and Gordon is right, it's like a roller-coaster ride combined with an aerobatic airplane ride! But for me it was fun!

Gordon Nichols posted:

I thought Lane might benefit from one of these Swedish Bicycling helmets, but in retrospect, nothing would have saved his forehead short of a racing helmet.

Or a shoulder belt of almost any type LOL.

DannyP posted:

Stan Galat posted:

DannyP posted:

Your "freedom of motion" and claustrophobia ISN'T worth your face, and justifying it this way is a fools paradise.

It isn’t worth the risk to you, but maybe it is to somebody else. Based on how many people run 2-point belts, maybe it is to a lot of us.

The fact of the risk isn’t a variable, but someone’s desire to run it is. You’re making your risk: reward analysis, other people are making theirs. 

 

Stan, we usually agree, but not on this one I'm afraid. I'm VERY happy to not be one of the "many people" this time. Been that way all my life, the masses don't usually have much influence.

Danny.

THAT is the way to disagree with someone - acknowledging their opinion and thoughts politely, while presenting yours in the same vein, and not disparaging and demeaning the other’s contribution.

Nicely done. Others on this site could learn to do the same.

Bob: IM S6 posted:

DannyP posted:

Stan Galat posted:

DannyP posted:

Your "freedom of motion" and claustrophobia ISN'T worth your face, and justifying it this way is a fools paradise.

It isn’t worth the risk to you, but maybe it is to somebody else. Based on how many people run 2-point belts, maybe it is to a lot of us.

The fact of the risk isn’t a variable, but someone’s desire to run it is. You’re making your risk: reward analysis, other people are making theirs. 

 

Stan, we usually agree, but not on this one I'm afraid. I'm VERY happy to not be one of the "many people" this time. Been that way all my life, the masses don't usually have much influence.

Danny.

THAT is the way to disagree with someone - acknowledging their opinion and thoughts politely, while presenting yours in the same vein, and not disparaging and demeaning the other’s contribution.

Nicely done. Others on this site could learn to do the same.

Yeah!  Well I say Danny’s a poopyhead!

Danny, I’m pretty sure we don’t even disagree about this one. Shoulder restraints are obviously a very good idea, and I know that the loss of “freedom of motion” is a sacrifice you are more than happy to make. You’ve make your risk: reward calculation, and made your choice. It’s a good choice.

What I was saying is that it’s possible  (and indeed very likely) that somebody else will make a different choice in the full knowledge of the risk they are running, based on a different calculation of what they perceive to be an acceptable risk for more freedom of movement. I’m not endorsing the decision, I’m endorsing the right to make it.

The risk isn’t worth it to you, it is to them.

Thanks Bob. But Tom's right, I am a poopiehead! But I have too much respect for Stan to act like a jerk to him!

It's true Stan, I agree you have the right to run naked through Peoria. Can't say I'd recommend that course of action though LOL!

Please tell me when “Streaking Stan” is planning his celebrated run though greater Peoria.

I truly wish to look the other way.......

Avert your gaze, or you'll go blind.

Hope Stan at least wears a minimal fig leaf ~

Gordon Nichols posted:

Please tell me when “Streaking Stan” is planning his celebrated run though greater Peoria.

I truly wish to look the other way.......

It used to be held after the Morton Pumpkin Festival, but its now banned.  Some corn farmers have been overheard saying that if you listened closely, you can still hear the rumbling sounds in the distance.   Some say that it's the Midwest skunk ape an other say "no, that's just the president blowing off some steam"

Folks, it is with sincere regret that I find I must apologize to you all.  Apparently it is spelled “selfie” rather than “selfy.”  I’m so ashamed.

Y el Guapo, mi Hermano de un otra Madre, 

I salute you!       I had forgotton your relationship with your past Trauma center.

YOU GUYS ROCK!

I have been riding a bicycle (a lot) since like, forever, been hit hard a few times and really hard once, back in 1983 while commuting home from work.  Jim, I’m sure you’ve seen a few of these victims and how the level of injuries seem to correlate to pure luck - Some riders suffer horribly and others seem to “luck out”.

I ended up at UMASS Trauma Center, after passing out at the accident scene just after the EMTs arrived and I told them I thought I was OK, then passed out (!)  I awoke in the Trauma center but my right arm was captive to my side, making me think I had broken it.  Left shoulder and right hip both hurt, road rash on hip but not shoulder.  When I finally got my head around to see my right arm, I found my bike helmet (made by Bell) duct-taped to my right arm and my arm duct taped around my waist.  I later heard from the Trauma nurse (They all are Rock Stars, too!) that the EMTs do that because the ER and cranial docs want to see the impact evidence on the helmet.  Makes a lotta sense.

I also heard that between shift change at 2pm and when I arrived at about 6pm, they had 42 different traumas arrive, had gone to a triage environment and I was judged (by at least four senior staff) to be lower on the criticality pole so they got to me when they could, around 8pm (causing Kathy, who arrived around 6:45pm, to hit the roof!)   I saw them run an accident victim through who appeared, to me, to be in WAY more critical need than me - there wasn’t much left to work on.

So my usual 45 minute commute home from work took three days that time, but nothing was broken, just really, really bashed up.  You don’t know the details of the accident, but there were a lot reasons that it happened - lots of woulda-couldas on both sides, but that’s all in the past and I can deal with lingering issues.  I have some hilarious stories of things once I finally got attended to and for several months later, but that’s for another time.  

Let me say this again; EMTs and Trauma Center people are ROCK STARS!   Why?  Because they never asked to deal with what’s brought to them, but they do so willingly, with training, compassion and class.

And also because they helped me stay around to write these looong posts!

Gordon.  Both you and Lane both need to watch out.  If Lane goes to USCMC he could be looking up at son #2, and if you ever have to go under the knife at Mass General you could be staring up at son #1.  Seem just like yesterday I was changing their diapers.

DannyP posted:

It's true Stan, I agree you have the right to run naked through Peoria...

So, this just might buff out, after all.

Gordon wrote" EMTs do that because the ER and cranial docs want to see the impact evidence on the helmet.  Makes a lotta sense.

Absolutely ....when I was on a Rescue Squad the helmet recovery was a priority.  Didn't think all much of it until I rang my bell riding a BSA , hit a 64 Chevy broadside and was launched 74 feet minus the bike landing on my side and the yellow center line (16 week hospital stay)  BELL Helmet Inc. wanted the cracked full helmet to inspect real time accident damage and sent two new ones back.

Lane Anderson posted:

"And I'm going to reiterate a little. Your "freedom of motion" and claustrophobia ISN'T worth your face, and justifying it this way is a fools paradise."

Absolutely!  I mean, compare the before and after pics below.

BEFORE:

AFTER:

Sad, isn't it?

The first rule of Fight Club is: You do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is: You do not talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club: someone yells stop, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over.

I see that Nepotism exists in medicine  

El Señor Clock escribe; “BELL Helmet Inc. wanted the cracked full helmet to inspect real time accident damage and sent two new ones back.”  

I heard about that much later, that they sometimes did that, but they never called me.  I actually kept riding with that helmet for another 3 - 4 years (and would never do that now.)   A good friend of mine was riding for the Canadian Cycling Team about that same time (mid-1980’s) and was in an almost identical accident to mine, while training in the Toronto suburbs.  He was killed instantly.  I was very, very lucky.  There is far less protection on my bicycle than even in a plastic Speedster/Spyder.   

A doctor and a bus driver loved the same women named Sarah the bus driver had to go on a 7 day trip he gave Sarah 7 apples why?

An apple a day keeps the doctor away.

I wonder if we should drive after eating an apple  

Lane Anderson posted:

Ok, so here's the selfy I threatened you with.  The poor lighting makes it look even worse.  No, I did not break my nose.  It's been that way as long as I've owned it, but the light makes it more noticeable.

Any relation?

Best thread in a long while.  SOC at its best.  A good discussion on safety enhancements and a new definition of buffing out.  Love it!

Tom Blankinship posted:

Best thread in a long while.  SOC at its best.  A good discussion on safety enhancements and a new definition of buffing out.  Love it!

It's a mental image you can't unsee, try as you might.

Lane Anderson posted:

Folks, it is with sincere regret that I find I must apologize to you all.  Apparently it is spelled “selfie” rather than “selfy.”  I’m so ashamed.

Lane, you've got it all wrong. It's called... 

Watch this.

https://youtu.be/W1HGe6TEYHY

I miss Jimmy!

Uncle Jimmy!!!

Good night, Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are.

Stan Galat posted:

“freedom of motion”...

While we're at it, I think there's another option... Some of us might enjoy more safety, but can't figure out how to do it elegantly. I've often thought about what I would do in the split second prior to an inevitable crash like Lane and Jim. Face to steering wheel seems inevitable and my arms would do little to cushion the blow. As Jim's accident tells us, even driving conservatively isn't enough to prevent something crazy from happening.

I would much rather have a 3 (or more) point belt. But so far my options are limited to installing a roll bar (not an option for me), or changing out seats (if they don't look crazy).

From my point of view, the site is limited on examples of how to efficiently switch from stock 2-point to a 3 or more point belt. If it were just a matter of ordering a new seat and dropping it off at Tony's, I'd already have done it.

@Ryan (formerly) in NorCal

Ryan, Tony has a lot of experience in designing and fabricating custom roll bars and seats for VW race cars. If you're at all interested in better safety, you might want to ask him for suggestions.