This will NOT buff out

Seat belt attachment is more than just changing out seats.  The rear attachment points should not be more than 45 degrees below horizontal.  That means that you need to figure out how to run the belt strap towards the rear of the car, not just bolt it to the floor of the car behind the seat.  That can be the deal breaker in cars like ours.

Most of us want additional safety when driving.  However, bolting the straps to the floor of the car is a step backwards.  If Lane or Jim had such a configuration, injuries likely would have been worse, since spinal compression would have occurred.  

Remember that it's more than just the pivot point of the belt at issue.  The direction the belts run after the pivot point is critical.  Most seat belt/harness maker websites provide comprehensive diagrams.  Don't take one person's opinion, including mine, as gospel.  We all need to do our own research on this important subject, since it can impact us and those we care about.

For my lap belts, I attached the outer one through the side frame and the inner one through the side of the tunnel with a plate on the inside.

I should have qualified that my post, two above, only refers to shoulder belts, not lap  belts.

Maybe this will help: http://www.speedhunters.com/20...-the-expert-answers/

Or this:

Different manufacturers vary on the downward angle of the belts after going over the shoulders. I've seen up to 20 degrees down for short shoulder belts, and like Jim Kelly says, up to 45 degrees down if the belts are long and go to back seat lap belt attach points. The angle also differs if a HANS device and helmet are used, again, depending on manufacturer.

I find it interesting how many old wives tales are out there concerning spine compression due to downward shoulder belts, when the instructions clearly state up to 10 or 20 degrees down angle, and up to 45 if it's a LONG belt to the rear seat area. 

That center strap looks painful  

DannyP posted:

Maybe this will help: http://www.speedhunters.com/20...-the-expert-answers/

Or this:

Different manufacturers vary on the downward angle of the belts after going over the shoulders. I've seen up to 20 degrees down for short shoulder belts, and like Jim Kelly says, up to 45 degrees down if the belts are long and go to back seat lap belt attach points. The angle also differs if a HANS device and helmet are used, again, depending on manufacturer.

I find it interesting how many old wives tales are out there concerning spine compression due to downward shoulder belts, when the instructions clearly state up to 10 or 20 degrees down angle, and up to 45 if it's a LONG belt to the rear seat area. 

What I like about the racing seats, and specifically the ones Lane found, is that they fix the angle over the shoulder issue by establishing the angle over the shoulder.  For low speed crashes (which is what I’m focusing on) there shouldn’t be an issue attaching the belts through the body and to the torsion bar support.

It doesn't really press on "that area", Ray. It keeps the lap belt across your hips where it belongs, and keeps the shoulder belts tight as well. If you stay planted in the seat, chances are much better that no injuries occur. That being said, I'd rather have a bruised wang and be alive!

I agree Tom, they look like the ticket in a Speedster.

DannyP posted:

It doesn't really press on "that area". It keeps the lap belt across your hips where it belongs, and keeps the shoulder belts tight as well. If you stay planted in the seat, chances are much better that no injuries occur. That being said, I'd rather have a bruised wang and be alive!

Okay, now you’re going to kick off another discussion regarding whether it’s more important to protect your wang or your face.

This just randomly popped in to my little brain. Anyone remember these torso harnesses?

http://www.jegs.com/i/G-FORCE/471/4290BK/10002/-1

Back in the mid 80's/my college days I used one in my C street prepared GTI when I couldn't afford a true racing seat with belts. It worked surprisingly well. I know it is kind of a Band-Aid, but may be an option on higher risk/higher traffic drives to keep your face off of the wheel in a shunt....

Well Danny you can keep winging it   

There is a reason why they use a double strap for those guys who need it. 

You just need to soften the steering wheel:

Does that go around you and the seat, Scott?

yep - it is literally as simple as that. Doesn't attach to anything at all - just wraps around.

Here a 3 point made for older cars. 

https://www.wescoperformance.c...actable-install.html

calmotion posted:

Here a 3 point made for older cars. 

https://www.wescoperformance.c...actable-install.html

Not high enough and no good attachment point for D-ring in fiberglass.

Brings a whole new meaning to "strap on"!

Bill Prout posted:

Brings a whole new meaning to "strap on"!

 

I do miss Vince, but he would have taken it too far with visual aids 😂

Heh!  That’s for sure!

i do start some interesting threads, don’t I?  I love watching how all of our minds work.  I’ve gotten to where I can predict the direction of the drift.

Let’s stay on this gents— 13 hrs and no new drifts.

We’re seriously slipping. 

Slipping or sleeping?

Bill Prout posted:

Slipping or sleeping?

Snoozin’ = losin’

Okay.  To keep this thread alive, in the only way I know for me to contribute, here are some shots of my roll bar set up.  It might give someone some idea of what they would like to do.  Henry makes special mounting points right on the frame, and then attaches the bar through the body with large bolts.

I don't get what all the fuss is about.

Our cars are all about simple solutions to simple problems.

Low tech. Old school. Dad knew best.

Youse guys with your straps, harnesses, and roll bars are a bunch of weenies.

Any racing driver from the 1950s would have told you the way to survive a crash is to be thrown safely clear of the twisted, burning wreckage.

Let's not overthink this.

Nice post, Mitch.  I hope your clear thinking won't get muddled when (God forbid), instead of sitting safely at your keyboard, you are careening at 60 mph toward the rear of a jack-knifed semi.

I had that happen, and I did LOTS of overthinking in a few short seconds.  Unlike musbejim, I relied on shoulder straps and ABS brakes, since my ninja-like reflexes are history.

I read a little jest in Mitch's post. 

Yes, Ed, me too.  However, his last sentence: "Let's not overthink this" seems to indicate that Mitch feels we are analyzing the safety concerns too deeply, a sentiment with which I heartily disagree.  Reasonable minds can disagree . . . etc.

OK, I may not have been entirely serious in that post.

Yes, I'm sure that harnesses are safer than no harnesses. But what worries me is that, by installing them, someone might think he's brought his car up to modern safety standards.

The gorilla in the room is how far behind modern standards these cars are, no matter what equipment we bolt on. It may be less true for a frame-based car ( I don't really know the answer to that), but in my pan-based VS, the crumple zones are made mostly of my knees and femurs.

It's sobering to consider that a typical SUV bumper is about chin-high to a Speedster driver. Or that fiberglass is little better at stopping one than, say, warm, buttered toast. There are good reasons why the smallest, lightest cars that will pass today's crash tests weigh about half a ton more than our little, plastic toys.

We should be thinking these thoughts every time we light the fires. Every time we enter a blind corner. Every time we wonder if that pickup truck backing out of the driveway up ahead has really seen us.

And we should be thinking this whether we've got harnesses or not.

I agree with everything you said, Ed.  However, as with most human endeavors, if we wait for the perfect solution, i.e., the one that solves all the associated problems, we never do anything.  To my mind, any improvement in replica safety improves my chances of an injury-free result when that inevitable OH SH*T moment occurs. YMMV.

I know I'm thinking of as much detail about my spatial awareness as my 53 year old brain allows. I do believe I made a good choice to build a Spyder which, even though a low vehicle, has a nice "cage" around me that affords some protection. And may I add, the one impact I had at 60 proved this true, zero intrusion into passenger area. This combined with wearing a properly installed 5-point harness makes me feel a bit safer than some of you.

Mitch is correct, fiberglass is about as good as warm, buttered toast for impact.

Here is my frame:

I write this as I watch Grand Prix Driver on Prime, as they are doing a segment on the driver survival cell LOL!

Lane, as I said on the phone, we’re certainly very sorry to hear of your car’s damage. Equally happy you’ve only dented your face a little — and endorse the bit about being checked by a doctor with a head CT. 

Regarding the chassis/roll-bar/seat-belt discussion, I believe we’ve probably got the “safest” Speedster-shaped car going at the moment ... but this is no more than a pedal-car with a lawnmower engine on it in modern traffic. Even the Safety Orange isn’t enough to ensure people see you while they’re chasing the kids around the Escalade’s kitchen, making a sandwich and on the phone.

We all make decisions about these cars, either at the point of sale or afterward, and we chose to opt for four-points in lieu of five. The belts are out-of-date for racing, but will prevent me getting speared by the steering shaft and Jeni getting waffled on the dash.

That’s it, though. We have no illusions that a serious wreck involves leaving the car for anything other than an ambulance. Y’all with cars constructed by dropping fiberglass onto pan-and-post chassis would have much bigger fish to fry than whether you’ve got four-point belts, and insurance might be one of those fish.

Things to think about. I overbuilt this car after crashing a 928S and rolling it six times. Thankfully, I was unhurt, and there’s a front fender on my garage wall as a reminder. There’s also a rear fender from Danny’s Spyder — serving the same purpose.

Remain vigilant as drivers, mind that distance, know your tires and brakes, and remember that we’re essentially driving Radio Flyer wagons in the land of the inattentive SUV.

Lane, we’re very, very happy you’re here to tell the tale. 

Cory Drake posted:

Lane, as I said on the phone, we’re certainly very sorry to hear of your car’s damage. Equally happy you’ve only dented your face a little — and endorse the bit about being checked by a doctor with a head CT. 

Regarding the chassis/roll-bar/seat-belt discussion, I believe we’ve probably got the “safest” Speedster-shaped car going at the moment ... but this is no more than a pedal-car with a lawnmower engine on it in modern traffic. Even the Safety Orange isn’t enough to ensure people see you while they’re chasing the kids around the Escalade’s kitchen, making a sandwich and on the phone.

We all make decisions about these cars, either at the point of sale or afterward, and we chose to opt for four-points in lieu of five. The belts are out-of-date for racing, but will prevent me getting speared by the steering shaft and Jeni getting waffled on the dash.

That’s it, though. We have no illusions that a serious wreck involves leaving the car for anything other than an ambulance. Y’all with cars constructed by dropping fiberglass onto pan-and-post chassis would have much bigger fish to fry than whether you’ve got four-point belts, and insurance might be one of those fish.

Things to think about. I overbuilt this car after crashing a 928S and rolling it six times. Thankfully, I was unhurt, and there’s a front fender on my garage wall as a reminder. There’s also a rear fender from Danny’s Spyder — serving the same purpose.

Remain vigilant as drivers, mind that distance, know your tires and brakes, and remember that we’re essentially driving Radio Flyer wagons in the land of the inattentive SUV.

Lane, we’re very, very happy you’re here to tell the tale. 

Does this mean that you no longer feel some need to wear those heavy gloves and helmet while attending Carlisle ?  We miss that shyt.....makes for good photo ops.....

As usual , Large congrats on a unique and super build. Homebuilding rocks. Your car takes the idea to a whole different level . 

I'm glad you 're " OK" , Brother Lane. Hope to see you at Carlisle . You're a good guy and cars are just "stuff". 

I 've been told that I drive like an old lady. I rode bikes for 30 years and have been "T" boned before.  I wake up sometimes and relive the whole thing.  I hope you can shrug it off and carry on. 

My crazy skiing buddies used to say: Bones heal, pain is temporary, and chicks dig scars. 

“Bones heal, pain is temporary, and chicks dig scars.“

Gotta remember that one (as he looks at his scars....)

Someone ought to make a list of all the excellent things that, according to drunken 22-year-old frat boys, "chicks dig." It'd make an awesome poster.

edsnova posted:

Someone ought to make a list of all the excellent things that, according to drunken 22-year-old frat boys, "chicks dig." It'd make an awesome poster.

Al,

As a guy with more scars than average, I can say with personal experience- 35 years ago, it was guys who dug scars. But that was then and this is now-- today's prettyboy metrosexual hipster wannabe lumberjacks generally don't have the opportunity to acquire them, and seem disappointed that most scars are not nice, neat, cleanly healed 1" accent lines across a cheek. 

I'm not sure there as ever a time in my life when chicks dug scars.

... just another way 20 year old dudes assign what they like to everybody else (especially the opposite sex).

My have things changed.  My oldest son considers himself a metrosexual.  While my children may be fiscally conservative they are definitely socially liberal.  They have many gay  friends and friends of all colors.  A metrosexual is a heterosexual male who dresses more feminine or kind of like a gay.  High pants, bright socks, spiked hair etc. Much more common in large metropolitan areas.  And yes the chicks do dig it.

My son with his bride.  He always got the girls. 

Something metrosexuals do like, though, is the Speedster.

Our cars can even affect their ability to see.

Like most folks my age, I'm normally almost invisible to the average urban hipster. But, driving the Speedster, I'm suddenly "DUDE!". I had one guy in a black E30 M3 (what else?), pull up behind me at a light, and then edge alongside for a better look.

"Dude, that is the coolest car I've ever seen!"

I had the feeling this was his first Speedster. His jaw was hanging open, a little limp. No, even more than usual.

Here he was driving something that could have left me in the dust, running on two cylinders, but that didn't seem to count for much in his world. It's all about how you look.

And dahling, I must have looked mahvelous.

Agree.  My boys give me a hard time about my kit cars and always ask me why I don't buy a "real" car.  But when I dangle the keys in front of them they can't snatch them away fast enough.  These cars just make you grin.  I don't care your age or sexual preferences.

550 Phil posted:

My have things changed.  My oldest son considers himself a metrosexual.  While my children may be fiscally conservative they are definitely socially liberal.  They have many gay  friends and friends of all colors.  A metrosexual is a heterosexual male who dresses more feminine or kind of like a gay.  High pants, bright socks, spiked hair etc. Much more common in large metropolitan areas.  And yes the chicks do dig it.

My son with his bride.  He always got the girls. 

So, Phil, what you're saying is your son is the 1 with the long hair and lipstick?

Happy to call her my daughter in law.  She is beautiful in every way.  He's a luck man.