Thunder Ranch - Post Production

Paul--sorry about your car and know you must be so disappointed and more than not happy! These horror stories are not as rare as they should be! The sort or problems you photographed are so obvious that you would think they all could have been corrected before letting the car out of the shop. Did T.R. think the car would be accepted as it was delivered??

I once read that some car dealer(s) in Japan who sell American cars (I don't remember the brand) ---they actually stripped and painted every car they receioved before putting it on the showroom floor. Now that's being particular!

My questions are what has T.R. said in the way of an explanation?

Exactly what have they said about giving you the car you ordered and
getting this one perfect, or at least acceptable?

I can't imagine ever not having a Speedster replica and at some point I'll be getting another someti,me in the future. I pay attention to these "product reviews" I see on the club site.

Paul, I hope the last chapter of this story is a happy one for you, my friend.----Jack

Yes, Thunder Ranch new about my concern with the paint job before I left California. They were more than aware of the chips/scratches in the dash. What blows me away is the conscious decision that was made to ignore the obvious lack of quality in the finish and mechanicals and send it on its way.

I flew out of California on August 6 2008 after having the car for 5 days. The car was delivered September 23rd.

I noticed the side curtains as soon as the car rolled off of the trailor. First thing I did was tried to switch sides. The speedster looked like an insect with little wings. Spoke w/ Tom... apparently Thunder Ranch installs the metal supports to the outside.

Jack, I dont know how they could have thought I would have been happy with the car the way it was. the following is an excerpt from an e-mail I sent to Tom upon my return to Baltimore. I think I made myself clear with very little room for interpretation. It is dated Aug 11, 2008.

"Already talked it over with Tom, but worth bringing up again. A main reason for going with Thunder Ranch over other replica builders was the quality of the paint jobs I was able to see in November. I spoke about this with Tom upon my initial visit. The problem on my car is not only with the clear coat, but the paint itself. I was not surprised to hear Tom has someone else painting his cars now. That someone else needs to get much better at shooting metallic paint that equals the quality of past Thunder Ranch Builds. When I put money down in February I was buying a perfect paint job, I will not except anything less."

As for an explanation... I have been told it is my fault because I rushed them to get the car done. I have been told If the car was painted black (as was the original plan) as opposed to metallic silver I would not have all the problems with the paint.

I except fault in two areas. 1. The car was paid for in full prior to leaving California. 2. I trusted that the work would be done to get this speedster up to show winning quality as promised.

I have yet to hear back from Thunder Ranch with any resolution. I am far enough away I imagine they are hoping this will just go away.

Thank you to everyone. Not many people understand the passion and since of pride we have for these little cars. Its good to know there are a few out there that do.

Paul

Paul---absolutely no paint shows flaws as much as black! This is why some builders charge extra for black since the prep has to be so much better for black. And they say you shudda got black so flaws wouldn't show? WTF!

What the hell does the color have to do with smears., flaws, runs and fly specks in the paint??

Could you send it back with a punch list of what needs to be corrected--even split the shipping?---Jack

All I can say is wow!

Let's all send TR a nice little email note expressing future purchase concerns........

Hmmm, I have a 1999 Spyder that I understand was painted (white) by TR. My paint is poor, has a lot of very poor work, always has been that way, but dare I say it has less problems than yours.... sorry about that. But, my point is it will not get better with age, and I am sorry I didn't do something about mine when it came in. To be fair, I didn't buy the car directly from TR but from the original buyer who never completed it. Seems like to me TR has had some paint issues for some time....

The fact that there were no manifold gaskets is a firing squad offense. Do ya think that whoever put the silicone there noticed that no gasket was installed? I guess that's not the fault of the painter, is it?

Any chance of just returning it for a refund and getting one somewhere else?---Jack

You ought to point out, since SOMEHOW they aren't aware, that the reason for using base-clear is that the base coat can be easily touched up and made perfect. It goes down fairly dry (in order to stand the metallic particles up to catch the light) and can be dusted over, sanded out and re-sprayed many times so that the coverage is perfect prior to the top coat. You should never EVER have anything but a perfect base coat. You'd almost have to work on it not to, it just goes down so easily.

The top clear coat is easy as well. Load the gun and spray, you don't even need a good shine, just enough paint to work on. After everything has set-up and hardened, THEN you start wet color sanding, buffing and polishing to perfection. It's just that easy, it's fool-proof ! !

If you have problems with the base coat, they just didn't care. No question, they just didn't care at all about your car.

If you have additional problems, runs. etc. in the top coat, they never went back to complete the job. ALL clear coats need to be kissed after they harden (A good way to go through life. If it hardens . . . kiss it.) Those runs could be taken care of in three minutes, the glitches and globs in three seconds each. They never finished your paint, saw all of those errors during the build and made the paint worse with a sloppy assembly.

You might be in trouble already with your paint, not the errors, but the over-all thickness of the top coats. A base/clear coat demands heavy coverage, Enough base color to stand up the metallic and enough clear to then bury them again. LOTS of paint. If you have the car re-done you going to end up with one of those "soft" looking rides. They weird looking cars with no detail work or smart edges. The ones that scream multiple re-paint. We've all seen them and they all look weird, like the paint might slop right off of the car if it gets too hot in the sun. Since there really isn't a safe way to chemically strip fiberglass, and heavy sanding runs the absolute risk of cutting through the gel, you are in trouble here. Not that the car can't be repaired, but that it'll never look right. It's gonna have that over painted look that you end up with when pearl paint or the new three coat paints are used. Too heavy, rounded, soft and saggy. If you know what I mean, you already get it. If not, then you just haven't seen it yet, 'cause it's an obvious effect and one that you may end up with.

So . . . DON'T settle for an overall re-spray even if it seems like a good solution, have them rework each and every section separately. Easy to do but very time consuming. THEN a new top coat and a full-on color sand, buff and polish, THEN a complete detail session with a small soft brush to get the wax and such out of the seams and joints and off of the rubber bits. The results will be SO much better ! ! !

Go after these folks, you've been civil been long enough.

Kisses and hugs ! ! !

TC

Tom: Quick fiberglas/Gel update: West Marine, Valspar and several others have decent chemical strippers that won't effect the gel coat. Many of us have used them on boats for decades with no problem.

There are also a bunch of fiberglass base (underlay) coats that do wonders for surface irregularities. These are often called barrier coats, since they make a porous gel or fiberglass build-up water-proof, but once on they can be sanded wicked smooth to then accept the base color coat. Think of them as a very high quality primer. They also LOVE epoxy-based color coats.

On top of that you can run automotive paint or boat paint with equal quality. One of the stunning cars in the NE 356 club is a Cabriolet owned by John Merrifield's wife (John was a boat builder before he died), all done in Awlgrip boat paint and gorgeous.

gn

Hey, cool NEW (to me) info ! ! !

Thanks ! ! ! !

So what do we glean from all the baloney. Number 1, some customers are more a pain in the neck than they are worth. The cars all of us replica manufactures build are ego cars that are sold to folks that don

When this site was first created TR was just introducing its first Speedster. We received a lot of negative response especially when we placed well at the A.H.A. show the following year. I

Tom -

I can speak for no-one else but myself, but I appreciate reading your account of this issue (as you said, there's two sides to every story). Without taking sides, I hope that somehow a positive outcome is on the horizon for this matter between you and Paul. Aside from it all, I do wish TR continued success and for Paul to soon enjoy his car!

Peace - Out!

Lets think about this... I a responding to someone that built this car for me through a third party website. You have my number. Call me.
I am sorry that I have not focused on the positive. There are definitely good things about your cars, thats why I choose to purchase one from you after being a fan of Beck's for so long. Unfortunately there is a whole lotta bad in the way of the good.
By the tone of your post, and the fact You have not called me to discuss any of this, I take it Thunder Ranch is going to take the money and run.
You are not sorry for the problems I have had, if you are.. I have yet to hear you express that. Your wife mentioned that she wishes all customers would fly to California and test drive these cars before shipping them to the other side of the country, so dont make it sound like it was such a bad thing I did. If that wheel had frozen up on the freeway in La, or the Beltway here in Baltimore/DC... you very well could have been trying to explain to two sets of parents why their children are dead. The car is now safe (minus a leaking master cylinder), now we need to make it look like the car you told me it would.

And as for the build time being "5 months, February - July"... Take a look at the following post. I also have the initial contract stating the May 16th date.

https://www.speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=13964

Again, You have my number.

Paul

Mr. McBurnie,

I am almost speachless. I have been waiting to hear form you for several weeks concerning my car. You have seen the pictures. From the sound of it you are very proud of the fit/finish on this car. I really thought you and Thunder Ranch were better than this. You showed me in your shop several other cars that are much beter than the one delivered to me. You CAN do better.
I was in and out of the hotel room making sure my girlfriend was not bored out of her mind. Dont forget, she was in the car when it went from 65 mph to a screatching hault. We both took vacation time to test drive this car. She sat in a hotel in Lompoc California for 24 hours. Yes, I tried to be out there with you as much as I could. I also had to keep in mind my girlfriend inside the room. She did not want to come out because she was so irritated by the whole ordeal, not just the bearing seizing, but the 7+ months of the entire build.
I am the one that was remounting the driver side wheel and noticed, even after replacing the bearings, there was still movement. I walked over with you to the auto parts store to buy new bearings. Thats when I purchased the fire extinguisher and lock washer for the door stop that kept loosening up. You showed me the correct way to tighten the "spindle nut" down on the washer at the bearing then back if off in steps until the washer was able to move slightly. We talked about you learning to change wheel bearings from a guy in France that had a couple 550's in the garage. I explained to you that even though this was a blemish on the trip, I thought it was cool I got to hang out with the guy that built my car, swap car stories.

E-mail correspondance Dated May 6, 2008

Tom,

Thank you for letting me know, I will cancel the hotel/travel reservations. Please call when you have the opportunity. I had discussed several items with Jeannie before she left and would like to verify the information was passed along. San Diego is a long drive If I have to bring it back to the shop.

There are plenty of car shows this summer on the East Coast, I sent a list earlier in the year. Thunder Ranch will be well represented this summer. I will be sure and get the speedster to Carlisle in 2009.

Kindest regards,

Paul

By the way... Who gets to keep the trophies I will be winning?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tom McBurnie [mailto:tmcburnie@thunderranch.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:18 AM
To: Paul Rich
Subject: RE: Knotts 2008

Paul,

Paul Carlisle must wait

One thing I have learned is not to jump in and pull a trigger by making a comment as I did on 11/5 until all the facts are known...hence I stand corrected. Certainly best that further discussions need to be made off line between the customer and manufacture. ~Alan

This is why I don't deal with the general population in any way....
The so called "customer is always right" theory, does not cut it for me....

hey vince keep that in mind the next time you bitch at that male hooker you hired

to go to Pauls house and fix his TR tub. God knows it's a damn

I think I'll do as Alan is going to, and hold any further comments. Probably should have done that from the beginning. Hope this all works out well for everybody.

Funny...
Nobody held back when Tom complained about his coupe.

If I may make a suggestion here, based on what we've recently witnessed with JPS Motorsports and the DeWalt coupe......

In my 30 years of doing emails and forum blogs, I have never, EVER, seen anyone come out ahead in a public email, flaming or posting war.

NEVER.

Paul Rich has some legitimate concerns over the delivery quality of his new purchase and some valid safety concerns as well.

Thunder Ranch (Tom McBurnie) has his side of the story to tell, too, as any small business owner has in their operation when they're standing behind their reputation and dealing with the public.

Flaming back and forth on a public forum will do Thunder Ranch and Tom FAR more harm than good, especially when we've seen high levels of quality and workmanship coming from his shop in the past.

Maybe Paul thought he was getting more of a car than reality, and maybe some problems slipped out of Tom's shop unawares - I don't know either way, but here's the deal:

Tom: You have a very public customer who has publicized what he feels are legitimate problems with a car that you sold him. You have a high quality and customer satisfaction reputation to uphold. I really don't think you want to jeopardize that in a flame war.

Paul: You have concerns that you must present succinctly to Tom and clearly identify them so he can address them. Getting emotional didn't help Tom DeWalt with JPS and it won't help you. You need second party help in understanding the real issues and explaining them clearly to Tom, so get some local backup help (Cory Drake and Kelly Frazer should be able to help with local contacts). Rely on outside professionals to provide an assessment of what the problems really are. You may not agree on the proposed fixes to all of the problems, but safety issues should be a no-brainer and then you can work the rest out.

BOTH OF YOU: Call each other on the phone and begin to work this out. Because of the distance involved, remedy can quickly get expensive unless you get creative about how it is accomplished (i.e., shipping an entire car back and forth across the country kills any profit there might have been in it and makes the builder look bad in the first place, while hiring local places for fixes, paid for by TR is far more cost effective).

Tom: Ask John Steele if he made any money on DeWalt's coupe and what the bad press on here did. Do YOU want to go through that? Do you think it's necessary?

I will guarantee you that a public flame war will be no good for either of you and just provide post fodder for many others who do not have a stake in the issue (look at what's happening already).

I'll be happy to help mediate, but it's up to YOU GUYS to work this out. Get on the phone and start working. There's a lot at stake here....

gn

Damn, and I got all dress up for a fight . . .

I agree with almost everything Gordon said except the part about anyone else having a stake in this. We all have a stake in this. I looked at having a turnkey car built and I'll tell you this; from the pictures I see on the builders websites and by the text I read on them I would expect a perfect car. Right down to the last little nut and bolt because that's what they project. And I would imagine if I ever got to the stage of discussing a build I wouldn't hear "Well Mickey, ya see these are custom built cars so don't expect it to be perfect when you get it. There's sure to be things lose or overlooked but hey, that's part of the fun of paying $20-30K for one of these babies." That's basically the line we're getting from Tom and John S. and for that matter, some of the folks on this site saying "What did you expect from a custom built car?" I guess I'm an idiot or "difficult" because unless you tell me upfront that I may get a drippy paint job or a leaky coupe or loose wheels, than I'm not expecting anything but a functioning car when I get it.
I bought an engine from CB and when I talked to Pat he said it'll pretty much just bolt in and go. I asked are you sure? Do I need anything else that I may not know I need (imagine getting that question from a customer) and he went down the list asking me do you have ect.... He shipped me what I didn't have and when the engine arrived it bolted right in - just like I was told it would. If it didn't you can damn sure expect me to be on here telling my story because I would want you all to know what you may get. The other side is it was as promised and I have let you all know already that CB Performance is the best money I've spent on my car this far.
The other night my wife was eating here and she had a Mahi Mahi special the chef was featuring. I asked when I saw her plate was half eaten, how was the fish? She said it was fine. I asked again and she said it was good. I said you're my wife and you're lying, what was wrong with it? Finally she said "The rice was cold and the Mahi was overdone." She could see the anger on my face and she knew why I was pissed. Because she knew the Chef was going to catch hell and she didn't want to be "the rat". I explained to her that that crap is fine if you want to play it that way in the rest of the world but if you ever try to cover one of my employees asses again you had better start eating at another restaurant. This is OUR BUSINESS and if you want to let cold overdone food end up in front of other customers then I don't want you in our restaurant anymore! Needless to say I was pissed. My point is I have an obligation to my customers to make it right. Yes, there are VERY VERY rare occurances where a customer is just of their rocker and can never be satisfied but trust me most of the time there is some basis to their complaint. I respect my customers. It's what they deserve.

Right on, Mickey.
Good analogy.

Gordon--well said and a smart approach to rectifying this situation for both parties. I hope they will use the approach you outlined and encourage both of them to take your advice. It will be great to see a quick, happy ending to this story!---Jack

Teresa and I went to Paul's house last night and looked at the car. Apart from a few things which do need a little attention, I think this can be remedied amicably and well.
It's a beautiful car, and it has all the right peices to last Paul a good, long time. He'll be able to get it sorted with a lot less headache than he anticipated.
For starters, we're recommending it go to Peek for a safety inspection, and from there, he'll learn a little more about what he bought. Dave (at Peek) is more than willing to spend some time under it, and he's got a very high regard for Tom and his company.
The car isn't exactly right, just from poking under it with a flashlight in Paul's garage, but we've got both sides of the build story and had an hour-long conversation with Paul about how he made decisions along the way. Now that he's the owner, operator, driver and mechanic, he'll learn a bit more than he knows right now and make it what he wants it to be in short order.
He's got our contact list for local help and knows what he needs to do. He'll be in good shape for spring, I'm certain.

Cory:

Thanks for getting involved.

I've been on the phone with several people about this, too, including Tom McBurnie and believe that we'll quickly come to an amicable closure.

One thing coming out of the DeWalt coupe episode and this, as well as a number of people posting who have bought 3'rd party used Speedsters, is the importance of taking the car to a reputable, professional, local shop after you get your new car home for them to do a professional safety inspection. This should be done by a 3'rd party whether you're mechanically inclined or not, as it may make a world of difference with your insurance later on if anything were to happen. This should be done whether the car is a new turn-key (from ANY builder) or a 6'th-hand CMC. It just makes sense. New car dealers do this (or are supposed to) on anything leaving their lots, but we have to take it upon ourselves with these custom cars to get it done.

So we're starting with that, and we'll move on to other things thereafter. We'll let everyone know how things turn out after the dust has settled.

gn

OK, I'll wash the blue off of my face for now . . .

For anyone who's checked out Paul's pictures, I know that I speak for all of us when I "say" get rid of those hex nuts and knobs on your dash switches. A nice 356 bezel and knob is a must these days. A small detail for sure, but SO important for a finished and detailed out Speedster.

T.C.--do you know a source for those bezels & knobs? I'd like to take your suggestion. Thanks!---Jack

I like these guys a lot:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=105631

If you like to do things yourself, you can sand the knurls off of the knobs used on Karmann Ghia pop-out windows. They end up looking exactly the same as the 356 knobs sanded down with a nice coat of Krylon Almond, and are really cheap and easy to find.

TC you've got email

Jack,
see in my Carrera Project thread. There are sources and and such for what I did. The knobs are from NLA, with slight mods. I used the vw bezels polished up all shiney and a chrome washer and Viola!. Look in my picture file. Or you could go all out and do Porsche switches, knobs, and bezels. It would look very nice but it's a headache and it costs more.

What do the little knobs on either side of the tach do?

Knob stuff, Bill. They do knob stuff.
Thanks for keeping up.

(Heh, heh. Mickey said a few months back that they're just there for looks.)

Bill, I think on a "real Carrera" the 2 little knobs are switches, one for the 2nd ignition system coil and the other to select between the two fuel pumps.....redundent for racing purposes....swich is "in" for one and "out" to select the other

On my car Cory is correct, they do knob stuff. On the "real Carreras" Jim is correct, they are ignition switches. Since my car replicates a Carrera GT I wanted to dash to look like a GT dash.

Bill,
On Ruby, Left switch is for driving lights, right switch is 4-way flashers.
Toid

4 way flashers, something that would have come in real handy. I will have to get back with you on wiring this up!