Heat: Get yourself a Dyna Glo Propane heater for $69. Settings of 15, 20 and 25k BTU . I'm on my 2nd year with one, it's a multi task unit, heat the garage, dries painted parts quickly, softens vinyl for easy installation and........... keeps your lunch hot too~ f:0"target="_blank">https://www.ebay.com/itm/Propa...woZJcBecx:rk:11f:0
Alan Merklin posted:Heat: Get yourself a Dyna Glo Propane heater for $69. Settings of 15, 20 and 25k BTU . I'm on my 2nd year with one, it's a multi task unit, heat the garage, dries painted parts quickly, softens vinyl for easy installation and........... keeps your lunch hot too~ f:0"target="_blank">https://www.ebay.com/itm/Propa...woZJcBecx:rk:11f:0
What about propane exhaust fumes ? Any concerns there ?
There is no odor and I don't sense any ox depletion however I shut it off once it gets warm ( my large attached 2 -1/2 car garage is very well insulated) every couple of hours I open the garage door to change out the air. I probably should just leave the overhead door open an inch or so.
Alan Merklin posted:There is no odor and I don't sense any ox depletion however I shut it off once it gets warm ( my large attached 2 -1/2 car garage is very well insulated) every couple of hours I open the garage door to change out the air. I probably should just leave the overhead door open an inch or so.
I've stopped using my propane heater inside my 2.5 bay garage for fear of carbon monoxide. Two walls are against interior house walls, one wall is mostly insulated garage doors plus one man door and the front, South facing wall has two windows and 8" of insulation. I diverted one heat duct that I can shut off from the basement into the garage and I'll leave the man door into the house open and finally if necessary, start up a couple of 1500 watt electric heaters.
@ DAVID STROUD ... I did some reading on this and you are right, there can be some CO build up even with a properly burning propane heater. As mentioned, I do change out the garage air often and I've had no any ill effects, from now on I will keep the overhead door a few inches open from now on to be on the safe side......... Tnx David !
Carbon monoxide is heavier than air and therefore builds from the ground up which is why you plug a carbon monoxide detector in at ground level and a smoke detector on the ceiling. You're very likely safe in a large garage but in theory, more at risk if you are rolling around on a floor creeper working on cars!
I've been leery about propane use for many, many years. We lost a good Friend, his beautiful young Wife and their two toddlers to propane exhaust exposure overnight in their home one winter after having the propane furnace and chimney worked on. All four went to sleep and never woke up. Worst funeral I've ever been too.
David, so sorry to hear of this ~
I have not sanded a complete car for painting in a long while. I don't know if I would have the patient Ed, my hats off to you on this one. 
David Stroud posted:I've been leery about propane use for many, many years. We lost a good Friend, his beautiful young Wife and their two toddlers to propane exhaust exposure overnight in their home one winter after having the propane furnace and chimney worked on. All four went to sleep and never woke up. Worst funeral I've ever been too.
That's why smoke and carbon monoxide detectors are mandatory for insurance up here as of 2014:
"Working CO alarms now mandatory in Ontario. A new Ontario law requires a working carbon monoxide alarm outside all sleeping areas if you have a fireplace, any fuel-burning appliance, or a garage attached to your home."
I just replaced mine a few weeks ago, having both a wood burning insert and an older furnace.
I'm so sorry to hear your funeral story David.
Local code here now requires CO detectors when any type of permit is pulled.
We had a plumber install a new main water supply valve for the house. All the work was done outside in our yard. Before the county inspector would sign off, we had to add CO detectors in every bedroom.
The way I see it, you have 2 choices.
You can either heat with electricity or natural gas (or propane, if NG is unavailable). The first step is to size the load. In the Midwest, the rule of thumb is 40- 50 btu/ sq ft depending on the windows and insulation, etc., but a garage doesn't need to be 73* all winter long, so it's OK to downsize a bit (assuming you know there will be days the garage won't be 73*). OTOH, there's no point in spending money and not getting enough heat. It stinks to work in the cold.
The average one car garage is about 13' x 24', or 312 sq ft. If it isn't insulated, nothing you throw at it is going to seem like enough. By insulated I mean at least R11 in the walls, at least R25 in the ceiling, double pane windows, and insulated doors.
Assuming it's insulated, 30 btu/ sq ft is going to be adequate the vast majority of the time, and that attached one stall garage is going to take about 9,400 btu/hr to heat. If you have a 2 car garage, it'd be something in the neighborhood of 17,250 btu/hr, and a 3 car garage would need about 23,000 btu/hr. If the building is not attached, it's going to take more.
Electric heat is rated in watts or Kw. 10 btu/hr= 2.93 watts, so that single car garage is going to need 2754-ish watts. A readily available 2500 watt 8 ft electric baseboard heater (which puts out 8533 btu/hr) would probably do it, assuming you're OK with 60* on a sub-zero night. It would take 2 of the 8 ft 2500 watt heaters to do a well insulated 2 stall garage, and two 2500 watt 8 ft heaters and a 1500 watt 6 ft heater or three 2500 watt 8 ft heaters to do a 3 car garage. (All of this is very rough, and depends on your desires and climate).
The bottom line is that heating with electricity is the opposite of "buy once, cry once". It's dirt cheap to put in (wire and $90 heaters), but costs a fortune over the long haul. The difficulty with gas is that anything with a heat exchanger and flue is going to be at least 40,000 btu/hr, and cost at least $800. Then you have to run gas, electric, and a flue.
Enter the 99.9% efficient catalytic garage heaters. They need no power, and they run on gas. They come in small sizes, and lots of them run on propane, so all you need is a bottle.
My advice? DON'T DO IT.
Let's assume that your space is well ventilated (it's not, unless you are uninsulated, and then you are just peeing in the wind), and that you are one of the people who tell themselves, "that smell's not so bad". You'll think it's a cheap way to go. I was one of those guys. I had a 20,000 btu NG catalytic ventless heater in my 2-stall garage once. It was a huge mistake.
If you ever paint anything, that open flame with no flue is going to react with the thinner and overspray and put out some unbelievably noxious fumes. You'd be surprised how often you want to paint something, or clean parts with a distillate. If the garage is attached, the entire house will smell like a chemical dump for a couple of days. Worse, you'll likely be hacking up some pretty nasty stuff for a few days, assuming you aren't overcome by the fumes and don't die in the garage. It's just bad.
Please don't do it.
On a cold evening many years ago, I sprayed two coats of primer on a Beetle in my friends repair shop, I wore wear a decent mask but other than leaving the overhead door open an few inches there was no decent ventilation . We had just finished and a heavy primer grey cloud hung in the shop, as we walked into the office for a beer the oil fired hot air furnace decided to come on, that was followed by a somewhat muffled " Boom " that rattled the shop the air was suddenly crystal clean .........we were lucky.
Alan - is that where the term "allowing the paint to flash" came from?
Most of us have taken foolish chances over the years. This is not from laziness, but from being industrious, wanting to get results, finish the job, go on to the next item on the list, etc. We say to ourselves: oh man, I really should get that (ladder, extension cord, floor jack, correct tool, whatever), but my neighbor/friend/kid hasn't returned it yet. This substitution will work just fine for this little job.
I've done the above in the past, but I (mostly) stopped.
An added incentive to use caution is that, when a serious accident occurs in the home or garage, family members are often onsite. A serious accident harms more than the victim, as loved ones will usually witness the results, then call the local fire department. Those tragedies change more than the victim's life. His survivors never forget it.
So, think of your wife/partner/friend/kids before you take that shortcut. You'll be helping them as much as yourself.
It’s a 19 page thread. We’re drifting...
I bought a 5000watt overhead fan based heater and my two car garage, that is well insulated is nice and warm whenever I want to go visit Sabrina.
Yes it costs more than the NG to run, but I ran the cost of doing the NG install and it was prohibitive so I have many winters before I just get even with the NG install so I am happy with it at this time.
Bread, eggs and milk.... it's going to be a doozie !
Anybody have a good barbecue sauce recipe?
Panhandle Bob posted:Anybody have a good barbecue sauce recipe?
I don't have a made from scratch recipe, but adding a little concentrated orange juice and a splash of rum (or 2, and then a splash for yourself) will improve any bought sauce immensely!
IaM-Ray posted:I bought a 5000watt overhead fan based heater and my two car garage, that is well insulated is nice and warm whenever I want to go visit Sabrina.
Yes it costs more than the NG to run, but I ran the cost of doing the NG install and it was prohibitive so I have many winters before I just get even with the NG install so I am happy with it at this time.
See the numbers above. I’d bet your heater keeps that garage nice and warm.
Yes Stan, @Stan GalatI appreciated you posting those numbers, the garage is so nice to work in with the heater and the man cave is a nice retreat center.
It also holds smaller cars ...
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I don't know about natural gas (I don't think it is but I'm not 100% sure) but I know burning propane produces water vapor, and I don't think most people want the extra moisture in their garages. In winter here construction job sites, if they're at the drywall stage, are sometimes heated by propane 'jet' heaters (the electrical not being far enough along that the building heat can be turned on), and (especially with wood studs) nothing is really dry when it's sanded out and painted. When everything finally dries out (after painting, everything else is finished and the owner/client has moved in) there are sometimes problems with the the drywall finish.
I wouldn't want put propane in my garage.
CH4 + 2 O2 --> CO2 + 2 H2O
This is the basic equation for combustion of NG.... but the usual product is always
CO2 + 2 H2O for a complete burn. Just saying ....
hot air always has steam in it...aka H2O if it comes from a combustion chamber or a body orifice 
)
Water is always a byproduct of combustion.
In my line of work, we can’t wear gloves that are very warm, due to the need to grab screws and small parts. When we are on a rooftop working on something in really cold weather, it’s very tempting to warm our hands under the flue of a running rooftop unit.
It’s also a great way to end up with thin, soaking wet gloves, all ready to freeze your hands once you have to go back to working on the unit.
Water in the exhaust is why the tailpipe always rusts out first on your car’s exhaust. It’s why the fluecap rusts out first on your water heater vent – that moisture is entrained in the exhaust as steam, but as the exhaust cools the moisture condenses.
In addition to carbon monoxide buildup, a catalytic natural gas or LP heater dumps all that moisture straight into the space it heats. It is a super great way to grow mold.
Thanks guys. I guess I'd forgotten some basic chemistry.
ALB posted:Thanks guys. I guess I'd forgotten some basic chemistry.
That’s OK. I often get to my truck, only to forget what I was after.
Don't feel too bad Stan , working on Speedster projects, I have to compile daily work and parts lists, lay out a majority of the usual tools on a work bench replacing them exactly where got them from so they don't suddenly part company . For my hardware and auto parts runs, I can't take a chance on not having a list for that too ~
I have not forgotten my basic chemistry.
I never learned that weird shtuff in the first place!
Except, as it relates to food.
Or the Alton Brown “Eat your Science” tour...
Stan Galat posted:ALB posted:Thanks guys. I guess I'd forgotten some basic chemistry.
That’s OK. I often get to my truck, only to forget what I was after.
Sometimes I can't find my truck. Then I get there and can't remember what I was after.
Sometimes I have to go back to the original place where I had the original thought of what I needed to get. ONLY then, do I remember what it was !!!!!.........Bruce
I don't remember what we were talking about. 
This always seems to happen when I heat the garage with unvented propane burners...
Stan Galat posted:I thought Marty's was from a Karmann Ghia.
I thought Marty's WAS a Karmann Ghia. Could not resist. Don't fire me.
Ed, you're doing yeoman's work, sir. Brilliant.
Late to the party here, it was a tough work week.
I have two 5000 watt 220v electric wall heaters, with fans. They are diagonally opposite, so they circulate the air clockwise as they heat. They are both hooked up to the same thermostat, but I can select one or the other. They were nearly free, they came out of a building that was being torn down.
If I spend a LOT of winter weekends in the garage, it costs about $100 extra in electricity over a few months. Maybe $200 in 2016 when we built the new car. No fuel, no CO, no moisture, and no maintenance. I'm OK with all of it.
It's still cold on the floor on a creeper, but great if you're standing. Concrete block, 19 foot square building with an insulated(R30) ceiling and a foam insulated garage door. About 360 square feet. The 8000 BTU window AC unit works perfectly in the summer.
I'll have a radiant heated slab when we move, though.
I have used a cylinder propane style heater in my garage for years. It uses a large propane tank that I typically refill every 30 days . I also open the doors occasionally for ventilation and it seems to work very well, and cheap to use. I understand the concern for the fumes as my appearance has changed over the years, hence my picture below. Not to mention that I'm only 30..
Reddy1 posted:I have used a cylinder propane style heater in my garage for years. It uses a large propane tank that I typically refill every 30 days . I also open the doors occasionally for ventilation and it seems to work very well, and cheap to use. I understand the concern for the fumes as my appearance has changed over the years, hence my picture below. Not to mention that I'm only 30..
@Reddy1 No photo
Sanded the interior and floor today, and set up my "slave saver" thing for the clutch. Of course the bolt that came with it wouldn't thread into the hole, so I got another one and that didn't work either. Ended up cutting the aft adjustment rod from the cylinder—that threaded in perfectly and it was replaced by the heim joint anyway. Still...much more PITA than should've been. (Pic below is before the final stuff was done).
With that sorted I turned to the trunk. Still have to make brackets for the fluid reservoirs. Ended up making the brake fluid one first. The it was on to the cover panels for the beam adjusters and steering box.
Supposedly another painter is coming by on Thursday to have a look.
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