Tight engine

Hi Folks,

I'm at the point in my speedster build where I'm trying to get the motor fired up.

Its a stock 1600 tp that came with the car. on inspection, it looks like it it was rebuilt, new heads, barrels, pistons the lot. It was then left for around 10 yrs....Inside it all looked brand new, zero corrosion, all bright and shiney.

I can turn it over with a 12" bar on the crank bolt but it feels tight and the starter struggles to turn it over, (new battery).

Any ideas? what do I check first? (Engine is on the bench)

Cheers
GErry

i know of 2 ways.
1. you can tow your car slowly and turn on key and pop 2nd gear till it starts. by towing i mean with a rope
2. there is a high torque starter but it is around $250.

You say the engine is on the bench. With the spark plugs out, you should be able to turn the engine over easily with a 12in. wrench on the crank nut. I would remove plugs, put a lot of Marvel Mystery oil in each cylinder, move the engine over slowly for a few turns and let sit over night. Check how tight it seems the next day, repeat until it turns pretty free and smooth. When an engine is tight, the term "Break it loose" sometimes results in the Break part being the result. And we don't want that. also double check valve adjustment.

The Marvel Mystery Oil is a great idea. If that's not available in Scotland, then a good marine engine fogger (available at boat supply places) will do the same thing. You might have to look for it this time of year, as your 2-1/2 days of Summer were gone a while back and everybody has already winterized their boats, right??

Turn the engine to TDC and give it a good blast in each plug hole, then let it sit for a few hours. Turn it over a few times, return to TDC, add 1/2 turn and blast it again. Let it sit for a few hours and repeat the process, but this time come up to TDC before you blast it. Repeat that for a couple of days and whatever surface rust might be in there will be gone and you'll be good to go.

The starter, if it's an original, stock, VW and never been rebuilt, is probably tired. I found the same thing when I built my last engine - the donor starter had all it could do to turn the engine over when the engine was freshly rebuilt (and had been sitting for 2 years). Try getting the starter rebuilt (should cost under 50 pounds) or get a new starter. You probably don't need to spring for a "high torque" version - a stock VW for a later 1600 should do it. I'm running a mid-C/R 2,110 and a stock starter spins it just fine.

Good luck!

gn

When you turned it over with the tranny attached (I assume you did it that way versus some sort of out of the vehicle tester) did you make sure your flywheel/starter bushing/starter were all compatible?

A 6 volt tranny, with a 6 volt starter bushing, and a 12 volt flywheel and 12 volt starter makes a bad combination.

You can also use a starter from an autostick. Its beefier and self supporting.

Hi Folks,

The engine is on a stand, using a camper bellhousing and starter.

The engine has been rebuilt in the past, I had the heads and barrels off and its all brand new in there, no rust whatsoever, thats as far as I went, the case was not split.

Plugs in, I can turn the motor over on the pulley bolt without too much effort, I don't have to lean too hard but there is no way you could do it by hand...

Plugs out, the starter will spin the motor at a reasonable rate but with the plugs back in, its an asthmatic wheeze, barely managing to turn it....

Someone mentioned that it may be that the endfloat is set wrong causing the tightness....Its also been said that its just cause its been rebuilt and I should hook up a couple of batteries in parallel to get it fired up....

Cheers
Gerry

The two batteries in parallel might help, but see my post up above and get a different starter. Sounds like that one's older than my 90-yr-old dad.

I've used "Liquid Wrench" with great success when trying to turn over a stuck engine. Use it like Will suggested for Marvel Mystery oil.

30 or 35 years ago, a customer brought me an engine that he had rebuilt complaining that it was "tight" When I split the case, I discovered that he had misaligned a bearing and it wasn't seated on the bearing pin.

The term "tight" is hard to fully describe how the engine "feels" when being turned by hand. If it is turning with a wrench on the alternator pulley nut or the rear crank nut is the resistance equal during a complete revolution or is it greater at different points of the revolution? If it turns easily by hand with the plugs out, and then is very hard to turn with a wrench with them in, that is a normal condition. Especially if the resistance to turning varies as the rotation opens and closes the valves on the cylinder at TDC. I am thinking that the starter may be your problem. How does the motor spin with the starter turning it with plugs out?

Plugs out the Motor spins as fast as I would expect an engine with plugs "in" to spin....

I had a mate over tonight, has built a few beetle engines....He thought it felt tighter than any he has don in the past, and Zero endfloat...

So got it off the stand and whipped off the flywheel, heres what I found....3 shims and 2 oil seals...That's not right ??

I had bought a new seal in anticipation, measuring it, its around 9.5mm thick, the two I pulled out together measure around 12.5mm

Following the haynes procedure, I put the shims and flywheel back, took it up to around 75lbs to measure... my dial gauge says I have around 0.02mm endfloat...I [I]think[/I] Haynes is telling me I need 0.10mm.

Any ideas as to why I had 2 seals? How much endfloat should I be looking for? Is the haynes procedure about right?

Cheers
Gerry

The end play measurement should be .003 inches or 0.0762 mm

.10mm will be fine so take out a shim and see what happens

Aircooled.net sells a double seal set with two thinner seals to be used together. I don't know what the combined thickness is.

Looks like what I have......Sounds like my endfloat is set too tight..

Ger-sold my old shop manual to the guy who bought my last van years ago but saved some notes; here's one I had on the crank end-play limits: should be between .0025 - .0065in (0.07 - 0.17mm). Also you should be measuring with a dial indicator if possible.

You can buy a thing that bolts to the case and allows you to check it with a feeler gauge.

Hi Folks, Update on this....

Set end float, used a silicone crank seal rather than the double seal thing that was in there. Cranked a lot better.....

Still not starting though, so back to basics, find TDC, set static timing, find that dizzy is 180 out, swap leads, new points and it started first time :)

Won't idle at the mo, but thats for another day...

Another small step forward.

Cheers
Gerry

That's my line: 2 steps forward and 1 step back. Glad to see it's coming together for you.

Two seals are better than one, I guess. If there is room for two, or the new seals are built thinner to allow two to fit, I'd say good show -- more reliable. I had an old single cylinder tractor engine (Kohler) that developed a main seal leak and there was room in the engine case cut-out and along the crank surface for two normal seals -- so I put two in and never had a leak problem again. What caused the leak was abnormal high crank case pressure due to abnormal (high) ring blow-by due to age, mostly. Ended up rebuilding the engine eventually, and put two new seals in then too. Gave the machine away a while back, and hear it is still running fine.

I went with the two thin seals from aircooled.net. After doing it I started wondering about the outer seal getting lubrication on the edge. I did grease up the groove.

Another update...

I had a fiddle with the air idle screw and the fuel metering screw on my 34Pict- 3 carb and its running a lot better and now idles....

Next job on the list is some soundproofing, followed by the installation of the new loom I just bought....!

Cheers
Gerry