Timing nightmare

Just about ready to get my car all ready for its Spring debut. Having a hell of a time trying to get the timing right. I am using an 009 Dist with electronic ignition, problem is that its a new rebuilt motor so its never been timed to this point, I have checked TDC with the valves on cylinder 1, seems as though the timing marks on the crank pulley might be off, it has a small dimple on the rear of the pulley and a mark on the front at 5atdc. I am not sure what motor the pulley was off as it is one of the few original parts I have used, everthing else other that the case is new.

If I static time the distributor using the marks on the crank the rotor is way off the #1 lead, and will not fire. I have checked for spark at the plug and do get a spark, just seems its a the wrong time. I am very confident that the cam gears, and dist gears are correct in their placement, as I had to try a few times to make sure everything lined up. Any help would be much appreciated.

please help end the madness...

check with the engine builder? and the crank pulley will only go on one way, it has a notch and a key way. you might think about replacing the pulley. bill

This is important. Remove the pulley and buy an aluminum pulley with degree marks. You'll never get the timing correct with a stock pulley, especially with one that has a 5 atdc mark.

Once the new pulley is installed then verify the cylinder timing by rotating the engine clockwise while watching the valves of the #1 cylinder.
As you rotate the engine, the intake valve (closest to center) will open then close. Once that valve has closed, Carefully watch the exhaust valve as when it closes, you should be close to TDC If not, then just rotate the pulley the few degree's to align the TDC "0" with the split in the engine case.
Remove the distributor cap and locate where the rotor is pointing. If you have an old 009 then look for a notch on the rim of the distributor. That's roughly where the rotor should be pointing. Next, Look at the distributor cap. Is the #1 spark plug wire plugged into the hole that is roughly above where the rotor is pointing? THen make sure the plug wires are installed correctly. by identifying where #1 wire should be then looking at the distributor cap and going "clockwise" from #1 the next wire should be for #4, the next for #3 and the next for #2. If you want to look at it another way then look counter clockwise from #1 and the cylinder number will run numberically ie. 1,2,3,4.

OK, all this has been set up all you need to do is to loosen the clamp on the distributor and start the engine, if it won't start then turn the distributor a bit as you're cranking. It will eventually start. FORGET ABOUT STATIC TIMING.

Once the engine is running, run it up to 3,000 RPM's and set the timing at 28 degree's before top dead center and lock down the distributor. Don't time this engine at idle as you want the distributor to have all of its advance when timing the engine to ensure that you don't exceed 28 degree's. Some people may run their engines up to 30 degree's but with today's crappy gasoline, I suggest 28 as a maximum

What Larry said x 2! Until you change your pulley you can download and print a paper degree wheel and make your own mark at 28 degrees BFTD using the dimple as TDC. Or mark your wheel 1 3/4" BTDC should be around 28 degree's.Here is a link to the degree wheel,

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=478140

I went with the SVDA from A.J.Sims (very helpfull) and Kadrons on a stock 1600DP,very happy,

http://lowbugget.com/009_and_SVDA_kits.html

Here is a comprehensive thread on the subject,

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4035956

P.S. Make sure you have a tight 009,if the shaft is loose it will affect the timing.
Here's a couple of good threads on 009's,

http://www.vw-resource.com/009_history.html

http://www.volkswebbin.net/topic/81824/009-distributor/

http://www.vw-resource.com/009_dizzy.html

I guess my biggest issue is.. do i even attempt to us the markings on the pulley or should I disregard and use the valve train to set TDC ??

Be very carefull not to set too much advance,30 max! better at 28 as Larry says. If you doubt the accuracy wait until you have a proper degree wheel, you will overheat,burn up! I did what I described above with a stock wheel and am running cool,FWIW.

Use a wrench wench if possible.

If its a stock pulley you should be able to use the pulley markings, however, using a screwdriver or coat hanger down #1 cylinder to double check that the pulley mark IS TDC is real cheap insurance. Ive seen some bastardized pulley's that guy's have ground marks in with their own 3 hands! You can use the valve train as well!

emailed you. we'll get it sorted and you'll be driving in no time (sorry about the pun)

Whatta guy EH! You can feel the Speedster love.

Mr. Bucket, your timing is perfect, your wrench wench got my motor running pre-maturely....

Carefull Vince! Don't throw a ROD! or you might drop a valve!
Bye the Bye, Glad to hear your Speedy's new motor is running well on the street and around the curves! Congrats on a very cool rig!

a wooden chopstick works well for finding tdc as not to scratch any of internals with a metal object

There's a real easy way to find TDC that's completely accurate if you have a degreed pulley. Yank the guts out of a spark plug (there's a very easy way to do this I learned after many tries). Insert a threaded rod or bolt down thru the middle of the plug and put a nut onto the bottom end so the threaded portion hangs down about 1/2" or so. Round off the bottom end of the bolt so it will not scratch the top of the piston. Take all plugs out of the engine. Screw in your TDC finder into the number 1 cylinder. Turn the engine over gently till the piston comes up against the end of the TDC finder's bolt. Note the degrees on the degree wheel. Turn the engine over gently in the other direction till the piston comes up against the TDC finder again. Note the degrees on the pulley. Half way between both pulley readings is TDC. No more guessing with valves etc. If you don't know how to knock out the center of a spark plug the easy way, just ask and I'll do a short show and tell. If your pulley is not degreed, you can still do this. It just requires a little measuring from one point on the pulley to the other side and making a mark.

Simon, when you get the advance set up right, go for a drive and see if that 009 creates a "flat spot" upon acceleration and note the rpm
that it happens at. You may have to mess with carb jets to to assist getting through that flat spot if you do have one.

Thanks for all the help guys.. I have Mango coming by on Friday.. I'll keep you posted.

The keyway on the pulley is 90 degrees counter-clockwise from the TDC mark (or should be). Use a framing square to quickly verify the mark is in the correct spot.

OK, I'll bite...
how do you knock out the center of a spark plug the easy way ?

I'll try to describe it without a picture. I'm looking at an NGK plug right now. At the bottom of the ceramic portion and just atop the hex nut area your socket goes onto is an small crimped on aluminum ring. You need to get rid of this first. Stick the plug in your vice right side up and work your angle grinder around to get rid of that ring. It'll give up easily. Turn the plug upside down and put it in a vice with the jaws gripping the hex nut area. Get rid of the ground electrode. Pry it up with a flat screwdriver then wrench it off with a pair of pliers. Open up the vice a bit and rest the hex nut area a bit loosely onto the shoulders of the vice jaws. Keep the plug vertical and aim a punch or drift onto the center of the plug with one hand and whack the drift with a hammer in your other hand. The center will come out easily.

Thanks for the tip David. I'm going to have to give that a try...

thanks for the drawing Justin, I actually had something similar that came with my new cam when I was putting the motor together, but its always good to be able to reference these in the future. Mango came by this afternoon and checked my valve settings(I recently got a herniated disk in my neck, so have been unable to do alot), through a little trial and error I think we may be on the right track, however we pretty much drained the battery trying. Battery is now on charge and I will try again tomorrow. so close and yet so far.

it's getting fuel no prob, spark is bright white

just left to find the timing. the distributor doesn't have any marks for #1 TDC. we ball-parked it based on the distributor cap notch and another distributor

we did get a sputter, but at that point, it was cranking at only 9.5volts.

my bet is it'll be running tomorrow.

ok so i have tried everything under the sun to get my beast started, i am running a new starter, battery, wiring harness, alternator, coil, distributor, ignition, ..cranks over but slow, got spark, gas, have static timed it. tried jump starting it from both the battery up front and hooked up to ground and alternator at the back. under load i have about 9.5 volts at the alternator.

The only thing I have not tried is to jump the terminals on the starter to see if it spins any faster.

any of you used a "hard start relay kit"?

I asked that question months ago and got no reply, Simon. I then tried an Autostick starter and got some relief but eventually went with an IMI Hi-tork starter but that was for a 2.2 litre Soob. Did you try Larry's idea of getting the dist. in approx correct position and turning it by hand as your helper engages the starter. If you've got spark and gas, that should get it running...then time it to 28 deg with the light. Some had complaints about the quality of those 009's. Have you checked it internally to see the action of the advance mechanism? Nice and smooth...loose, stuck etc. ?

Simon:

I've used a so-called, "Hard Start Relay" on Pearl from day one. Nothing more than a driving light relay between the key and the starter solenoid to take the current draw off of the key switch and engage the solenoid more firmly.

If you haven't already, pull the battery cable ends at the battery and starter and clean them up so they're shiny. Do the same for the grounds, and make sure there is a ground strap between the tranny and the frame (and the ends are clean and shiny).

If it were my car, I would pull the starter and take it to an auto electric place and get it rebuilt to make sure it really spins on start-up. When VW starters get old they slow down a lot.

David,, swapped out the distributor for another one.. Gord, everything I have on this car is new, Starter, Alternator, entire ignition, battery, wiring harness, ignition switch.. I am going to take the starter and battery out and back to the auto electric guy i bought them from to test.
While I am under the car I will check the trans ground one more time. think I will try the starter relay route, at this point it cant hurt.

Was talking with my brother-in-law, AKA master mechanic, he is going to come down Saturday to help me get things going.

My donor starter would turn over fast enough to start it, but it was pretty slow. I took it to a starter rebuild place run by a couple of real old guys - I'm old, but these guys were ancient. When I got it back it not only looked like new, but cranked over faster than I ever expected.

Good luck! Gn

Well my Brother in law came down today. He figured the engine was a bit tight which caused my starter bushing to go, so out came the engine, will re-check my end play..(mango had mentioned that too when he was over helping).

Need to find an replacement oversized starter bushing, hopefully Monday for that, will check end play (hopefully thats all it is)and tidy up a couple of other things in the engine bay, with the engine now on the garage floor.

With any luck I hope to have the motor back in by next weekend..

...or you could use a starter for a Beetle w/ Auto Shift. No Bushing needed. It's in the starter.

Simon,

Did you get her running?

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For anyone who goes to do David's sparkplug TDC finder and uses a nut on the spark end of the guage you make PLEASE use some method of asuring that in no way could that nut come unscrewed while installed into a cylinder!

I'd probably give it a tack with my welder to hold it, but red locktite or a double nut firmly tightened together, or SOMETHING to keep that nut attached to the rod.

It'd be possible to have the need to pull your engine to remove that head just to get the nut out of there, and if you should be so unfortunate as to start your engine with a loose nut in a cylinder it'll make a horrible clatter, bend or break a valve or hole your piston in very short order.

Apologies to all who find this obvious but that guy Murphy is lurking 24/7 just waiting for a chance like this one.

A nice and useful tool, cheap too, to keep in your box as long as it's put together in a way that it'll never be able to come apart.

Still working on it.. as I had mentioned in a previous post, I injured myself back in February, so I am taking things easy.. I checked my end play again, all is good there, tweaked a couple of issues that I had,verified TDC with the motor out of the car, set my distributor to the proper location, got the motor back in the car yesterday, with new starter bushing installed, tried the starter before I installed the motor, spun well with no load, so I am hoping everything will turn over properly now. I am going to do a compression test before I try and fire the motor.

i wonder if that bushing was in crooked and that was causing it to bind.

glad the end play was fine too.

hopefully thats all it was, I used part of my steering wheel puller to install the new bushing, Had my Brother in law weld up my exhaust , will get that back on by the weekend and with any luck it'll fire up.