Timing Question for my 1641

I need a little help on timing my new rebuilt 1641
History: Started life as a 1600 single port 1970 " B " case.
During rebuild I changed it to a dual port w/ doghouse tins for better cooling, but still has the 31 pict w/ adaptor plate ( dual Solex 40/44's waiting in line). Dist is a new 009 W/ blue coil.
Question- seems the timing in 1970 can be 0 TDC or 5 ATDC depending on engine case- I think it should be 0 according to all I can read, but seems to run better at 5 ATDC as far as I can tell ( no driving yet ). Do the changes I made affect how I time? Which is right 0 or 5 ATDC and which direction do I turn the Dist ( clockwise or counter ) as I have a after market pulley w/ degree's and want to know which way is ATDC.
Sorry if this should be in the Newbee's section, but thought more of you VW guys would be looking here.
Thanks in advance, Dale

Dale,

Adjust it to 7 at 800 RPM's (idle). Then have someone Rev is to 3000 RPM's. It should time between 29 and 31.

Todd

I static timed my car and that comes to around the 5 ATDC degree mark at idle when checking it with a timing light. Yours seems to be the same. If you look at the degree wheel you'll see it's marked in degrees and 0 where it says TDC. Basically you'll see the number 5 being lit to the left of the TDC mark right when it's aligned with the engine case seam. Oh, and don't forget to set your points gap or dwell angle before you set the timing. Spec for points is around .016"; dwell angle spec is 50 degrees plus or minus 2 degrees.

Dale, the big question here is "what kind of distributor" do you have?

If you're running aftermarket equipment, such as a Bosch 009, then forget about idle timing the engine and concentrate on total advance.

With today's crap fuel, (91 octane) premium, I suggest that you time the engine at 2,500 to 3,000 RPM's for a total of 28 degree's.

This ensures that your distributor won't allow any more advance than 28 degree's thus saving you from detonation within the cylinder heads.

Just wanted to clarify that the dwell angle specs as per the VW Service Manual are 44 to 50 degrees for new points and 42 to 58 degrees for used.

Todd, Larry, and Ricardo,
OK I have a 009 Dist w/ Blue coil, New points gapped at .016, seems dwell is close to the 48 to 50 degrees when I checked it ( RPM was a little off the 850- could not get it to go low enough )
Now I want to set the timing at idle 5 or 7 degrees to the left of TDC on my after market degree wheel. Advance throttle to 2500 to 3000 RPM and hope I get 29 to 31 degrees to the right of TDC on my wheel. Right? If I don't get 29 to 31 just adjust Dist till I get that at 3000 RPM and not worry what it is at idle. Correct?
Sorry if I seem slow here, but I am determined to build this whole car in house so I know everything about it.
Let me know if I got this right now and thanks again.
Dale

Original Bosch distributors for the dual port engines were meant to run an idle timing of 5 degrees ATDC (After Top Dead Center). The 009 ought to be timed at 10 degrees BTDC (Before Top Dead Center). Setting the 009 at a timing mark of 5 AtdC would only give you about 16-18 degrees of total advance.

The newest 009's are pretty badly made, timing can move around because of the plastic advance stops, crumby springs, and over-all lack of real quality control.

In the end it's better to run a little retarded, runs cooler, if a bit slower. You can't really trust the new aftermarket distributors and it doesn't take much of an over-advance to ruin your engine

Dale,

OK, we've established that you have an 009, first thing I'd do is to purchase one of several brand point eliminators. Compufire, Petronix, Empi etc. It's a simple wiring job and it eliminates your points and condenser.

As far as timing the engine, I suggest a maximum of 28 degree's if you're planning on using premium 91 octane fuel.

References are based on you facing the timing pulley: Your engine turns clockwise so any "advance" timing is taken from the right side of the pulley. With the engine off, line up the TDC mark with the split in the case (just above the timing marks) Count off 28 degree's towards the passenger side of the car. I usually take a small chisel and tap a mark along the outer edge of the pulley but you can also use a Sharpie pen. Use a 10mm socket and loosen the distributor's locking clamp.

Attach your timing light, start the engine. It may be helpful to have a friend Increase the throttle until your engine reaches 3,000 RPM's.

Take a reading and align the 28 degree mark with the split in the case. If the initial reading is not correct, rotate the distributor with the engine running until the 28 degree mark is at the 12 o'clock position. Tighten the distributor clamp, take another reading to make sure the distributor didn't move and you're done.



TC,
the problem with setting an 009 at 10 degrees BTDC is that you don't know what the maximum advance will be. There have been time where I've seen 009's with 25 degree's of advance, couple that with an initial advance of 10 degree's equals 35 degree's advance which equals detonation.

It's always best to set the timing via the maximum total advance method as described above.

"the problem with setting an 009 at 10 degrees BTDC is that you don't know what the maximum advance will be. There have been time where I've seen 009's with 25 degree's of advance, couple that with an initial advance of 10 degree's equals 35 degree's advance which equals detonation."


Agree ! ! ! I've had good luck (SO FAR ? ? ?) using 10, but the 009's are all over the board, it's like every one is different. That's kinda why I mentioned that retarding the timing might be best, to take up that built-in slop. We pretty much use your method in reverse. Set for 10, rev to 3 or 4, and back of until the advance is correct, THEN recheck to see if the idle is still at 10. If it isn't, so what ? ! ? ! Set it for the final advance and let the idle fall where it may and use the carbs to set the idle RPM. We had an 010 in one of the drag motors last year, that was an even bigger headache . . . finally went entirely MSD.

Would you know if the earlier genuine German Bosch 009's are any better? As I mentioned, we've had some luck, but that could end. It's gotten to the point in time when none of the bottom bosses have anything on them at all to identify the origin or manufacturer of the 009's.

Larry, TC, everybody,
I think I have it- A little I guess, but I will try it in the next couple of days and let you guys know how I came out.
I am running 89 octane on my first tank, so let me know if this is incorrect- everything I read says that is fine.
I will purchase points replacement and eliminate that equation.
After I get it right I will attempt to install the dual 40/44 solex's.
Thanks again for the help- I will let you know how it goes.
Dale

TC,
The early versions of the 009 (70's and early 80's) were decent distributors. One of the early problems and continues into the later versions is a slight stumble when accelerating from a stop.

Not much can be done to correct this inherent flaw but in most cases, it hasn't been too big of a problem.

Many problems experienced with an 009 can be attributed to a sticking advance curve.

Removing the distributor and soaking it in WD 40 then drying with compressed air will often times solve the sticking advance problem.

In some instances, I've used Brake Clean to remove years of goo that has collected on the advance weights and springs. Then lubricating the mechanism.

If you're going to attempt a thorough cleaning, remove the base plate where the points/or eliminator are attached.

Clean and lubricate thoroughly, reinstall the distributor and re-time the engine.

Prior to removal, remember to rotate the engine to TDC and ensure that the rotor is pointing towards the small notch located on the rim of the distributor.

Also, notice upon removal that the ditributors driven key is offset from the engines drive gear notch. This is important when re-installing the distributor.

Dale; if installing Kadrons, get them tapped for vacuum and get an SVDA distributor instead of the .009; that way there'll be no flat spots off idle. You'll also be able to do away with the points in it using the Pertronix kit. You can get the carbs tapped and the distributor from either AJ Sims (www.lowbugget.ocm) or aircooled.net.

89 octane is fine provided you have a low compression engine (maximum 8 to 1)