Titles

It is different for each state.  Where are you?

Seems to be there’s a lot of difference between makes, too.

@Lane Anderson posted:

It is different for each state.  Where are you?

His profile says Michigan.

I am in Michigan, I was curious because I just saw a BAT auction on an intermeccanica that was titled as a 1959 Porsche 356. Just didn’t seem right that it could be titled as the original car? How would you insure it?

I would still insure it through Grundy, Hagerty, American Modern, or any of the other specialty insurance companies. I'd make sure it was insured as a replica though.

It really varies by state. In Hawaii, mine's titled with a make of Street Rod Replica, model of Porsche and a year of 1957. The VIN is the number stamped on the VW pan.

They cleaned up the laws around 15 years ago and it makes a lot of sense to me.

Mass. Wouldn’t let me keep/use the VW VIN once I went to a “Porsche Replica” title and registration.  The way the Mass. titling guy ‘splained it to me was that, because it doesn’t look anything like the original donor car they preferred to “retire” the old VIN (which takes it out of existence ) to give the car a new VIN identity with the new look.  
Made sense to me!   So now it is a year = 1957, Make = Porsche, model = Speedster Replica  Which is what the car now looks like, but it is a facsimile .

Insuring it with any of those companies mentioned above is easy - all of them understand what replicas are from 1932 Ford replicas to Jaguars to Speedsters to all sorts of things.  They’ve probably seen and insured them all.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

Mass. Wouldn’t let me keep/use the VW VIN once I went to a “Porsche Replica” title and registration.  The way the Mass. titling guy ‘splained it to me was that, because it doesn’t look anything like the original donor car they preferred to “retire” the old VIN (which takes it out of existence ) to give the car a new VIN identity with the new look.  
Made sense to me!   So now it is a year = 1957, Make = Porsche, model = Speedster Replica  Which is what the car now looks like, but it is a facsimile .

Insuring it with any of those companies mentioned above is easy - all of them understand what replicas are from 1932 Ford replicas to Jaguars to Speedsters to all sorts of things.  They’ve probably seen and insured them all.

Gordon, did they give you a standardized 17 digit VIN?

I was going to post this in David’s Registration/Insurance thread, but I think it makes more sense here for future search efforts:

Are manufacturers using standardized 17 digit VINs now? I ask because I noticed something on the Burgandy IM that sold on BaT.

A little backstory: back in 2006 I set up a company to import motorcycles from Italy. Part of that process entailed filing my VIN protocol with the DOT. So I had to learn a bit about it.

The IM in question has a standardized VIN.

It checks out according to the protocol:

1st digit = 2 (Canada)

10th digit = R (1994 build date)

11th digit = V (Vancouver facility, I assume)

My question: has IM been doing this since the 90’s? I ask because AFAIK, that would cause a hole bunch of red lights to start flashing on the DMV-o-Matic here in Utah. Car built in ‘94 titled as a ‘59? I don’t know if anyone at MY DMV would be smart enough to override that. Plus, build date of 94 would require 1994 emissions testing.

The only way I got away with registering my Spyder as a 55 was that it had the weird CA Assigned ID  number. I doubt I could have pulled it off with a 17 digit VIN.

You guys with newer-ish cars: Do you have 17 digit standardized VINS?

Just another data point on the old IM VINs. The Santa Ana IM I bought was issued a California VIN that matched the VW chassis VIN. That's why Hawaii didn't feel the need to issue a new one, I guess.

As many have stated, it varies from state to state.  Many states have SEMA laws (I think 25 now) but even those states have variations between them.  Some states title as year of engine, some states title as what is replicated, some states title as year of chassis, some states don't assign a year and just call it something special like "specially constructed" or similar.  The issue really comes to play when transferring states.  A state that uses current year but makes an exception for emissions and safety may not be accepted in another state that looks at it as a new car and expect it to meet new car standards.  In addition, the states that use year of replication get abused by owners since those generally transfer into more states than others, so the non-conforming states have caught on and start questioning a 1955 Porsche title from a state like AZ for example.

The new low volume laws are intended to put some uniformity to all of this, but are still a long way off for most.

@dlearl476 asked: "Gordon, did they give you a standardized 17 digit VIN?"

Nope.   Nine digits in Mass., starting with "MA" followed by seven numbers.

Thanks for all the info everyone. At first glance it seemed pretty easy to me when the car is built on a VW pan. It just got confusing when it’s a Beck or Intermeccanica with a Subaru engine.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

@dlearl476 asked: "Gordon, did they give you a standardized 17 digit VIN?"

Nope.   Nine digits in Mass., starting with "MA" followed by seven numbers.

Yeah. That’s what every one I’ve seen so far was State code + consecutive numbers. That’s why the ID “Assigned Identification Number” with a standardized VIN threw me.

@chines1 posted:

As many have stated, it varies from state to state.  Many states have SEMA laws (I think 25 now) but even those states have variations between them.  Some states title as year of engine, some states title as what is replicated, some states title as year of chassis, some states don't assign a year and just call it something special like "specially constructed" or similar.  The issue really comes to play when transferring states.  A state that uses current year but makes an exception for emissions and safety may not be accepted in another state that looks at it as a new car and expect it to meet new car standards.  In addition, the states that use year of replication get abused by owners since those generally transfer into more states than others, so the non-conforming states have caught on and start questioning a 1955 Porsche title from a state like AZ for example.

The new low volume laws are intended to put some uniformity to all of this, but are still a long way off for most.

I’m kind of amazed EPA/DOT hasn’t come up with a protocol for you guys yet. I’ve never asked Kirkham’s how they deal with their Cobras, but I think they have a 17digit VIN and a low volume exemption. And they use federally certified Ford crate engines, mostly.

Kind of apples and oranges because I was importing built MCs instead of building them, but I had to have all that in place in order to get the Small Manufacture exemption. Sadly, the cheating by Chinese scooter manufacturers forced the feds to revoke all those exemptions and my EPA certs went from $50K to $350K, dooming the enterprise.

I did get a second bike imported as a kit, though. Which is probably what I should have done from the git-go. The single cylinder Rotax engines that powered them are readily available in the states.

@dlearl476  they tried but each state wanted something different, so they wound up with roughly 25 different versions for 1/2 the states and then 25 states that left it up to state or local policy.  

Still a long road for the FAST act program (low volume) and if you don't use a big V8 or electric, at the moment it is unattainable, but that'll change in time (and money).

@dlearl476 posted:

.Sadly, the cheating by Chinese scooter manufacturers forced the feds to revoke all those exemptions and my EPA certs went from $50K to $350K, dooming the enterprise..L

Are the Chinese manufacturers exempt from those mentioned EPA certs?

Gone are the days of trailering a completed replica car to the DMV in N_ ,  parking in a Bus Stop in front of the DMV, I tell the Security guard to tell " Sam" I am here... he comes out lights up a Camel puffing on it like a steam locomotive as he walks around the trailered car a few times and when the Camel becomes a butt  says,  "Come on in I'll get the girl to make a you up a Title".

Illinois does not do many things well, insert corrupt politician joke here, but they do make registering cars simple. I spent under an hour getting plates and a title in 2016. For a new build they require the Certificate of Origin from the builder i.e. Beck, Odometer Disclosure Statement and the bill of sale document for taxes. My car is Titled as a 1957 Beck with the VIN (build #) that Beck uses.

For a used car it is similar process. They used the previous VIN that was assigned in Michigan where the previous owner lived. The only difference it was Titled as Specially Constructed Vehicle.

Here is a link to the Custom Vehicles and Street Rods registration process.

@americanworkmule posted:

Are the Chinese manufacturers exempt from those mentioned EPA certs?

Technically, legally, there is an exemption for manufacturers that produce less than 50 vehicles annually. Also, engines <50cc are emissions exempt.

The problem arose when Chinese manufacturers started importing scooters and small motorbikes in containers packed with 10’ of <50cc bikes, and 80cc, 100cc, and 125cc bikes interspersed in the rest of the container. CBP didn’t have the time or manpower to inspect them all.

These bikes got shipped out to all kinds of retailers and when the buyers of the larger displacement bikes ran into trouble with registrations, enough people complained that the EPA/DOT put the kibosh on the whole program.

In my case, the minimal testing I needed to do to qualify (the motor was already emissions certified in numerous vehicles sold in USA) turned into the same testing required of any old BMW, Triumph, or MotoGuzzi imported to the states.

@Alan Merklin posted:

Gone are the days of trailering a completed replica car to the DMV in N_ ,  parking in a Bus Stop in front of the DMV, I tell the Security guard to tell " Sam" I am here... he comes out lights up a Camel puffing on it like a steam locomotive as he walks around the trailered car a few times and when the Camel becomes a butt  says,  "Come on in I'll get the girl to make a you up a Title".

Here in Utah it wasn’t even that hard. I had Carey fill out a VIN inspection form when he gave the car a once over after I bought it, I mailed that and the sales tax in and got a temp sticker.
When I got back to Utah I took my FL title in and said I wanted it registered as a 55 Beck replica and boom, bob’s yer uncle.

Used to be only a LEO or DMV employee could do a VIN inspection, but I was lucky that I noticed on the website that an “authorized dealer” could do one now was well. I figured Carey qualified. So did Utah DMV.