Trans Broke??

Am I having fun yet??

Well crapola that isn't a good indication of things to come.....  Years back I pulled a similar looking tooth out of a B' Econo dragster rear we were running and decided to pretend we didn't see it :~) ....and ran the rest of the season as is .... However, Danny  can fix you up Kelly.....

If there isn’t a huge amount of swarf on the drain plug, I wouldn’t worry about it if it’s working fine. Probably a missed shift into reverse chipped a tooth.

IIRC, the capacity is with 2.3 or 2.8.  I never pay attention, I just dump 3L in my Motive bottle and wait for it to start overflowing. I don’t remember there being enough left over to worry about.

FWIW, you can assay your gear lube just like your oil. Generally if you get high phosphorus readings your lube isn’t doing your synchros any favors.

Swarf??  Gotta look that one up. Black fuzzy stuff stuck to the magnet.  I'd call it a little bit. The magnet sits down in a small recess, and that recess was full of swarf.  Blew it all out nice w canned solvent.  20,000 mi +/- Assume trans was new, or newly rebuilt when I got it.

how do I tag Mr. Pip in a post?  Plain old @ symbol does not do it.  Need instructions.

@DannyP

OK, I was using the wrong handle -- txs.

@El Frazoo- it should hold the better part of 3 quarts (orange Bentley Type 1 manual- chapter 10, page 13- 5.3 U.S. pints of hypoid oil).  And yeah, it looks like a piece of ring gear to me as well.  If it's not making any noise or clunking you could try driving it for the summer, but it could quickly wipe most everything inside (and the case) as well, requiring a core trans to rebuild, so take your pick.

I know it's not what you want to hear, Kelly, but it's the best advice I've got.  Al

That looks like it would be something legitimate. I only say that because when I drained my oil to change it I discovered 4-5 needle bearings stuck to my magnet. Got a new transmission from TRP and installed it. Tore down my old transmission and there were no missing needle bearings anywhere. Still haven't figured out where they came from.

@Robert M posted:

That looks like it would be something legitimate. I only say that because when I drained my il to change it I discovered 4-5 needle bearings stuck to my magnet. Got a new transmission from TRP and installed it. Tore down my old transmission and there were no missing needle bearings anywhere. Still haven't figured out where they came from.

They came from somewhere, Robert.  Did you completely dis-assemble the gear stack and examine all the needle bearing cages?

@ALB posted:

They came from somewhere, Robert.  Did you completely dis-assemble the gear stack and examine all the needle bearing cages?

I took out everything and disassembled all of the gear stacks etc. I counted every needle bearing in every single bearing cage and none of them were missing any. That's why I was so stumped. The only damage I found was a small chip in one of the gear teeth.

A remnant of my days as a machinist.

@El Frazoo posted:

Swarf??  Gotta look that one up. Black fuzzy stuff stuck to the magnet.  I'd call it a little bit. The magnet sits down in a small recess, and that recess was full of swarf.  Blew it all out nice w canned solvent.  20,000 mi +/- Assume trans was new, or newly rebuilt when I got it.

Define “little bit/full of.”  Any more than 1/8 of a teaspoon would be cause for alarm in my book.

If your trans was new and this is your first fluid change I would expect some swarf to be there. That’s why you change your fluids frequently during break in.

@Robert M, if your transmission was rebuilt when you got it, could the needle-bearing bits have been left in there by inadequate cleaning before rebuilding?

@Michael McKelvey posted:

@Robert M, if your transmission was rebuilt when you got it, could the needle-bearing bits have been left in there by inadequate cleaning before rebuilding?

That's what I decided in the end.

Dang Kelly. You still going to Pittsburgh?

Ed: Yessir, heading out Wed.  Damn the torpedos ...!!  It'll run until it doesn't.

The swarf might have been 1/8 tsp.  Did not seem like much.  I'm still having a hard time with that new word.

Another item:  in another post about gear oil, @DannyP claimed, I think, that the trans holds 2.3 pints.  So that's a quart and a bit more.  I put in a full 2 liters and there was no overflow yet.  Nota bene: the rear of car was jacked up to allow access to that fill port.  after two liters, I let the jack down so car was ~level, as normal.  Some oil dripped out of the port, and the level was detectable with a finger tip inserted.  I figure I'm good.  Road test tomorrow.  Did Danny mean two quarts?

Merklin The Magician says he's seen a broken part similar in another sort of car, a racing machine, I think he said.  He kept the oil fresh and just pressed on.

Maybe I'm looking at a winter trip to Pip's Garage??   I've dropped a few 356 engines before, but never a trans.  This one is IRS.  Maybe not so tough?  We will see.

Back in the day, I was having some issues with my clutch in the S90, and all of that OJT got me to where I could get that engine in or out by myself in about ten minutes.  The trouble is:  I'm older now . . .

@El Frazoo posted:

Road test tomorrow.  Did Danny mean two quarts?

2.8 qts or, in the original tongue, almost 3 liters. Like I said, I dump 3 liters in my Motive and pump away. There’s usually a little bit left due to whatever fluid you can’t drain out of the trans.

Swing axel vs IRS could make a difference for quantity.

@El Frazoo posted:

Swing axel vs IRS could make a difference for quantity.

Both take so close to the same amount that VW doesn't list a difference- both use the same case, gearsets, ring & pinions, and similar differentials and side covers (dimension-wise).  Fill the transaxle 'till it starts overflowing out the fill tube.  If you've got less than 2 quarts (or liters) of oil in the transaxle it's not enough.

@El Frazoo

A couple of additional points-

I would wait a few minutes after the initial fill for the oil to creep into all the places it can before checking the level and calling it good.  It might even be an idea to drive a (very) short distance and check the level again, just to make sure there's as much in it as possible and it's worked it's way in EVERYWHERE!  And fill to the point of (just a little bit) overflowing, not just to where you can touch it- I'm guessing it's better to be a tiny bit over full than not full enough.  I've taken a couple of transaxles apart that were noticeably down in oil when drained before starting disassembly; they'd obviously been run like this for awhile, as just about every thing inside was worn and not useable (and junk).

Also, having hand squeezed I don't know how many bottles of trans oil into these things over the years I really like @dlearl476's (sorry, Dude, I don't remember your first name) suggestion of warming up the oil bottles in hot water (I think it was in the other thread?) for 1/2 hour before filling the trans so it flows easier. I did this when changing the diff oil in my FJ (made it much easier!), and with with aerosol paint cans when it's cooler in the garage- it makes for easier spraying (you'll get higher pressure out of the can) and will give a nicer finish.  Next time I'm painting parts in warmer weather I may try it as well, as I think it would even be beneficial then.

Pulling an IRS transaxle takes about the same amount of time as the engine.  It’s a bit easier to remove the starter so it’s not in the way, then pull the tranny.   Once everything is loose, it should come right out using a roll-around floor jack or a borrowed roll-around motorcycle jack.    One-man job, even for Geriatrics, like us.  The transaxle is heavy, but two can easily lift it into a pickup.

@ALB posted:

@El Frazoo

A couple of additional points-

I would wait a few minutes after the initial fill for the oil to creep into all the places it can before checking the level and calling it good.  It might even be an idea to drive a (very) short distance and check the level again, just to make sure there's as much in it as possible and it's worked it's way in EVERYWHERE!  And fill to the point of (just a little bit) overflowing, not just to where you can touch it- I'm guessing it's better to be a tiny bit over full than not full enough.  I've taken a couple of transaxles apart that were noticeably down in oil when drained before starting disassembly; they'd obviously been run like this for awhile, as just about every thing inside was worn and not useable (and junk).

Also, having hand squeezed I don't know how many bottles of trans oil into these things over the years I really like @dlearl476's (sorry, Dude, I don't remember your first name) suggestion of warming up the oil bottles in hot water (I think it was in the other thread?) for 1/2 hour before filling the trans so it flows easier. I did this when changing the diff oil in my FJ (made it much easier!), and with with aerosol paint cans when it's cooler in the garage- it makes for easier spraying (you'll get higher pressure out of the can) and will give a nicer finish.  Next time I'm painting parts in warmer weather I may try it as well, as I think it would even be beneficial then.

David.

And someone else suggested the hot water. I use the sun (nice black bottles on the Motul) and a Motive pressure bottle. To heck with squeezing 3L of gear lube into a trans.

FWIW, I check my trans about every fourth time I check my oil.   It leaks a little bit. But I have a Spyder so it’s pretty easy. (Easier than checking the oil, actually.)

IRS Trans weighs about 50-60 pounds. Kelly could probably lift it if needed.

The swing axle is heavier and much less wieldy (aka more unwieldy) with the axles attached. Can be hoisted solo but do not recommend.

@edsnova posted:

Can be hoisted solo but do not recommend.

My ruptured disc heartily agrees.

@edsnova posted:

IRS Trans weighs about 50-60 pounds. Kelly could probably lift it if needed.

The swing axle is heavier and much less wieldy (aka more unwieldy) with the axles attached. Can be hoisted solo but do not recommend.

A couple of years ago I weighed a zig-zag top, single side cover irs transaxle (with very little oil in it- had been already drained out) on our digital bathroom scale.  With the throw out bearing there it was 78 lbs.  If by myself I'd always used my floor jack to get a swingaxle trans in place, especially if it still had the brakes and drums on it; it was just too awkward otherwise.

@dlearl476- Thank you, David.  I will try to remember...

And it was @jncspyder who suggested warming up the oil bottles in a 5 gal. bucket of hot water in the Gear Oil thread.

Well, its summer, and the oil pumped with a little hand gizzie ($7.00 at Advanced Auto.) not too bad.  No hot water or sun soak, but that is a good idea. Good workout for the thumb.  I guess I need a another quart/liter.  Two full liters in there now.  Perhaps I can get to that tomorrow.  I did take it out for a short run, so everything has been frothed up. Seems to work just fine, and I'll say if there is any difference in shifting, etc.  with this new frou-frou oil vs whatever JPS put in there (Valvoline most likely), I cant tell.   Will check level, although that is kinda of a PITA.  Jack up, wheel off, finagle a very long set of wobble extensions and the 17 mm 1/2"drive hex head socket, do the deed, let it down, check the level, jack it back up, put on the wheel.  I really do need a lift.  I hope Santa is listening.  Also Piperato.  sure would Be nice to get his $0.02.  Which is usually worth a bit more than that, and always comes with a good IPA. Then I'm off to Pittsburgh and the VGP (flat tow the 250 miles) for a few days, and at least one good cruise.  Here's hoping . . .

Geriatrics?? Says who??

You'll need a new ring and pinion at the very least. The whole thing has to come apart to replace it, then EVERYTHING needs to be adjusted and set, all three shift forks, running clearance of all the gear stacks, and the ring and pinion lash.

I really don't want to tackle this, I'm too busy with my own stuff.

My advice is to order a new one from Rancho, then send them your old one as a core. Or contact Glenn, he is right near you. Or Sartwell if he still builds trannies.

VW spec is 300 miles or so, then change the gear oil for a new or newly rebuilt unit.

I believe the volume is 6.3 pints(a touch over 3 quarts) for swing and less for IRS. Also less oil needed for a refill, 100% of the oil won't drain unless it's taken apart.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

@Robert M, if your transmission was rebuilt when you got it, could the needle-bearing bits have been left in there by inadequate cleaning before rebuilding?

Possible. Did @Robert M check all the needle bearings that are left pressed into the trans case when the gear stacks are pressed out?

@DannyP posted:

Possible. Did @Robert M check all the needle bearings that are left pressed into the trans case when the gear stacks are pressed out?

Yes and there was nothing left in the case. It was a head scratcher but the new trans fixed it and I sold the old one and all of it's internals for a fair price to a local guy.

Hmm, I'll need to consider options. Could talk to Glenn , that would make sense. Meanwhile it runs like it should. Not sure anybody could notice just driving around.  Certainly I cant. As to the oil thing, it held about 2.3 liters. 2 l did not quite overflow. So I put 2 l in, then drove it around the block. Got another liter and put less than half of it in until it spilled out.

What's a new tranny cost these days??

Depends on what you want.  

At Rancho Transaxles, a Pro-Street 3:88 will run you about $1,500  

https://ranchotransaxles.com/vw-transaxles/

Great shop (I've toured it) and competitive pricing.

As an alternative, you could send your transaxle to them (about $175 shipping) and they can rebuild it (Maybe, if your case and internals are decent).

Or maybe Mr. Pip is looking for something to do.

He's really not. Kelly should try Jimmy Sartwell, who is in the Maryland area.

Ask Eds Nova about that first ...

@El Frazoo

I have been using the same transmission guy for 5 years he is very good super rea$onable and particular. ( Engineer by trade)     

Not sure if he would do UPS shipping but your trans would drop into a Walmart tub and you,  could go online to have it picked up both at your Casa and John's when done .     

Use UPS shipping discount code ( SPARK) for 40% off rates. )

John Brown in Dunbar,  West Virginia    ( close to Kentucky)  304 610 9003      ~Alan

FWIW I'm not sure where Jimmy is these days. If I go to C&C tomorrow (I might not; it's very hot) I will ask the guy whose junkyard Jimmy was living in a few years ago if he knows where to find him.

Last time I saw him was about 4 years ago when he put the 3.44 ring gear and .93 4th in the Spyder's box for me, and looked through it to make sure all was as it should be. He did a fine job but reportedly he is not well.

I've met Mr Sartwell, albeit many years ago, when the Hoopty was just a baby.  Seen him in action, have heard many of the stories.  I'd prefer to look elsewhere.  Or . . .

just run it as is.  It does seem to work just fine.  But broke parts lying about inside does give rise to concern.  I'd speak to Glenn first, then try to figure out what to do.