Trans/final drive ratios

I did a search and found a chart which surprised me. It appears they all have somewhat of an O.D. 4th with different 1st gear and final drive ratios. I would still like some input on your preference. Thanks,

Gene

With std height tires, my favorite was a 3.88 R&P, 3.78 in 1st, 2.06 in 2nd.1.48 in 3rd and 1to1 in 4th. This had a nice spread between gears and 4th allowed a nice pull for passing and you didn't need to down shift so much in town. ...........Bruce

Thanks Bruce for the reply, the chart I found doesn't show any 1to1 4th. It shows .079 .080. .082 .088 .089 .093. in various years and models. Was the 3:88 a std diff ratio or some aftermarket gears?

Yes, 4th, whether 0.93 (late Beetle with 3.88 r&p), 0.89 (what will be in the trans most of the time) or 0.82 (some years stock bus) is an overdrive. 

Before I start going on for over an hour (let's pare this down a wee bit)- what engine will this be coupled with? Is off the line (rip around town, blast from the stop light) important, highway cruiser, or???

PS- 1961-'66 will probably have a 4.375 r&p (a blast with a < 2 liter VW engine for ripping around town), '67-'72 a 4.125 and late '72 and newer 3.88 (if it hasn't been swapped out for something else). There is an aftermarket 3.44 available as well. With a type 1 aircooled engine I wouldn't suggest going to a .82 4th- the engine can overheat- going up a slight hill, for example, where it's revving to high in 3rd at the speed you want to go where lugging it up in 4th, the fan isn't spinning fast enough for the  engine to cool itself. And yes, 1:1 4th is aftermarket. Some of the 4th gears you in that chart (can you show us the chart?) won't fit the type 1 trans.

Yes, that's correct. You'll have to go to some after market gears to get the 1.48 and 1to1 gears but I think they are worth the money and it's not in the "major expense" category of transaxle parts.  Its not to hard to multiply out the gear ratios times the R&P ratio. This will give you a numeric spread between your gears. It draws a picture for you if you determine the value number between each gear set. Very valuable info.

Do a few complete gear ratio sets with different R&P's. You will be surprised.

There websites that take this even farther. Including tire diameters. The numbers they tell you are just numbers too and don't account for other factors in a real car...Bruce

I've been into figuring all this out for a while. Go to http://www.teammfactory.com/, and click on the gear calculator under the support tab. Great for a comparison of two sets of gears.

For an in-depth look at one set of gears at a time, go to https://weddleindustries.com/

Their gear calculator is right in the middle of their home page. It will give you rpm/speeds in all gears, rpm drops for each shift at any rpm you select as a shift-point, and percentage pulls between gears(which if fairly equal makes the tranny feel "right").

A couple things to consider: IF and I mean IF, a Torsen-type torque biasing differential is in your plans, get a 3.88 final drive, either OE or aftermarket. I'm told the Quaife or Peloquin brands won't work with the 3.44, but will with a 3.88, 4.12, and 4.37.

With a 4 speed you have a decision to make. Either you want a long-legged highway cruiser OR a stoplight sprinter OR a canyon-carver close ratio. To think you can get it ALL with only 4 gears is a fool's game. Believe me, I've tried.

The cheapest option for the long-legged cruiser is stock gears and a 3.44 final drive:

3.80(early) or 3.78(late) 1st, 2.06 2nd, 1.26 3rd, and either 0.89 or 0.93 4th.

Anything other than that combo is going to be more money. Like $1000 more.

I'm going to end up with a factory 3.88, Weddle custom 1-2(3.11 1st, 1.86 2nd), a 1.26 3rd and a 0.93 4th. IF I could do a fifth gear, I'd throw a 0.82 in there for interstate work. I'll also do a TBD(torque biasing differential) as I spin instead of launch.

These ratios I've chosen end up VERY close to a 3.44 with stock 1-2(but the aftermarket gears are slightly closer) and a 1.30 to 1.39 3rd and a 1.04 or 1.0 4th. Mainshaft(1-2) and corresponding idler gears and special 3-4 slider to fit that mainshaft is $1000. Plus add in the TBD which is anywhere from $800-1200.

Get 3rd and 4th welded as well while you're at it. That's an easy 2K plus any bearings and labor. Thank goodness I can put it together myself.

If you go for an open differential, get a super diff, they have 4 spider gears inside instead of the stock 2.

Also good to know is if the Speedster you're looking at is swing axle or IRS. Big difference in the end result(handling) although the internals are mostly interchangeable.

I'm going today to pick up a SSC(single side cover) IRS trans for my project. If it's out of a Beetle, it is 1973 or newer and has a 3.88 final drive and a 0.93(Ghia 0.89) 4th that I'll be using. The trans case I will not be, my ring gear has to be on the opposite side due to the mid-engine placement. I need a DSC(dual side cover) which enables a ring gear swap AND a swing axle.

I've learned far more about this stuff than I ever wanted to, but feel free to ask any questions. I'm happy to help.

Bruce: a 1.48 third and 1.0 4th is quite a drop.

ALB posted:

Yes, 4th, whether 0.93 (late Beetle with 3.88 r&p), 0.89 (what will be in the trans most of the time) or 0.82 (some years stock bus) is an overdrive. 

Before I start going on for over an hour (let's pare this down a wee bit)- what engine will this be coupled with? Is off the line (rip around town, blast from the stop light) important, highway cruiser, or???

PS- 1961-'66 will probably have a 4.375 r&p (a blast with a < 2 liter VW engine for ripping around town), '67-'72 a 4.125 and late '72 and newer 3.88 (if it hasn't been swapped out for something else). There is an aftermarket 3.44 available as well. With a type 1 aircooled engine I wouldn't suggest going to a .82 4th- the engine can overheat- going up a slight hill, for example, where it's revving to high in 3rd at the speed you want to go where lugging it up in 4th, the fan isn't spinning fast enough for the  engine to cool itself. And yes, 1:1 4th is aftermarket. Some of the 4th gears you in that chart (can you show us the chart?) won't fit the type 1 trans.

@gkgeiger (a first name would be way easier here!)-  As Danny has already done It's easy to sit here writing for an hour or 2 just on 'what if's'. I'll ask again- are you planning on running Subaru or VW power? If VW- how big- < or > 2 liters? How do you see yourself driving it- ripping around town letting all know you're quick enough so you're not to be messed with, just bombing around enjoying the scenery, carving up the twisties in the local hills or??? Until you answer these questions no one can begin to give you any meaningful gearing advice. I, Danny, Stan and a couple others will have great opinions once we know you're intended purpose, but until then we're just pissin' in the wind...

I've never seen that chart. Nice and compact- there's a few errors and omissions, though. Al

Al, you overlooked my name and what engine I want in my first post.

Gene

P.S. chart from thegloldenbug.com

Sorry Gene, it was early morning here... How are you going to drive it? Gotta go. Later.

@gkgeiger

I'm in Central Ohio if you ever want to try out a Subi powered 356 with a subi 5-speed transmission.

Honestly...  I wouldn't even consider anything else    

Jethro posted:

@gkgeiger

I'm in Central Ohio if you ever want to try out a Subi powered 356 with a subi 5-speed transmission.

Honestly...  I wouldn't even consider anything else    

Well Jethro, that is a nice combo .... I think Gene might be looking for a Berg special though.

Gene,

Welcome! You are asking the right questions. The problem is, we're all psychos here.

I've had no less than 4 different gear combinations in my speedster, and the transaxle is on the floor getting ready to be boxed up for number 5... so, understand that the following advice is coming from somebody who is not particularly balanced. However, neither are any of my compatriots who have been spending your money since you posted your perfectly reasonable sounding query. 

Switching a 4th gear and R/P is mildly spendy, but custom ratios (which is what most of "the fellas" are advocating here) is a great way to get rid of loose money that would otherwise be wasted on less useful things like food, shelter, clothing, and a 401K. Lots of us got into the habit of these cars thinking, "It's a VW bug. How much could it really cost, anyhow?" Somewhere, the devil is laughing because he so easily hooked another one. Fast forward a little bit, and we find ourselves huddled over keyboards late at night, contemplating and justifying borrowing from retirement funds to finance... a VW 4 speed.

So let's talk about what we're talking about here under the cold florescent lights of reality. A new (non-standard) main-shaft (the first and second gears) is about $1000 for parts, once you buy the idler gears and sundries. Want new 3rd and 4th gears in non-standard ratios? Figure $500 each. Bearings, etc. can run up to $500. A good transaxle-whisperer is going to want $500- $750 in labor to look deep into your transmissions soul. If you're doing all that, lets just get a new case as well.

All of the sudden, the cute little car is cooing in your ear that it would like $3000 or $4000 for a better 4-speed. It really needs this infusion of cash so that it can feel fulfilled, and make you happy. And you do want the best for your car, don't you? And to be happy? The car is whispering that it knows how to make you happy. It's really not that much money.

... of course, any 4-speed is going to be, well, a 4-speed-- which is really at least one gear short of what is really needed to make you happy. And make no mistake, you will come to feel you need a 5-speed (no matter what). The 5-speed guys are the cool kids in this high-school, what with their shiny whatnot and their cheerleader companions. They have the good hair, the nice tan, and they're all 6 feet (+) tall. They have spare money to buy stylish clothes to fit their gym-hardened physiques. Other men are envious, your own woman will swoon (and avert her eyes from you in shame). The owners themselves will always find the right gear, while you are left... wanting.

Their pooie don't stinky. They will tell you so right here. Often.

The 5-speeds in their cars are even crazier money. 

Like most things in life, it's best to not try to better the 5-speed dudes with a perfect 4-speed. It is the proverbial knife in a gunfight. It's a fool's errand, and you'll hate yourself for heading down this road to start with. Let me serve as a cautionary tale. I've been dead level convinced I was going to have the perfect 4-speed 5 times in a row now. Each "improvement" has cost at least $1500 (often more), but I'm soooo close now. Just one more hit and I'll be good.

For what I've got in 4-speeds, I could've had 2 Berg 5-speeds and enough left over for some hair-plugs or a personal trainer. Or at least some time in a tanning booth.

If you for one moment think that by any amount of effort or skill you will avoid your own financial Waterloo by choosing wisely, I'm here to disabuse you of this silly fiction. Thar be Dragons thar. Transaxles are where money goes to die, alone and cold.

So, what is a new guy to do? Buy the $6000 5-speed?

Nay! Nay I say.

Tie yourself to the mast of sanity, and resist the siren song singing that you must, must, must get the perfect transaxle. Get a stock-geared 4-speed with a .89 4th and a 3.88 R/P with a 1914, or a 3.44 R/P with a 2110 (and you really do want a 2110. All the cool kids have one. You just think you want a 1914). Count your money. Congratulate yourself on being a grown-up. Take your wife on a nice vacation. Try not to look at the 5-speed guys out of the corner of your eye.

... and whatever you do, don't ever drive a Speedster with a 5-speed.

Once you are well and truly ready to let your choo-choo head around the bend forever (and really, what's a couple of more years of working at your job anyhow? Retirement money is so overrated), get the 5-speed you really "need" anyhow.

Forewarned is forearmed.

Oh, and welcome to the madness.

Oh yeah, one more thing... try to drive one before you jump into it.  

That is The real problem with the hobbie.  You really need to live with the tranny for a while to know what it will be like driving it if you cannot test it before for a good run. 

Just saying, btw Stan, the quest for perfection is strong on this list  

The most expensive transmission is the one you buy, then end up replacing for something else

Thanks for all the replies. As I stated in my introduction post, I'm an old guy who has owned and driven many classic cars. None of them were sports cars. I, as many of you would love to own an original Speedster, but obviously that probably won't happen. I don't expect this car to be anything it isn't, although I would possibly take it on a Interstate occasionally. What if I found a nice car that just had a stock trans and diff. ratio. Finally, how does the VW gearing differ from a stock 356A for example. Thanks again,

Gene

P.S. I forgot to mention, back in the day, I owned several Beetles, which I always worked on myself. I should also mention that my background was in auto service, although at 76 I won't be changing trans or diff. ratios myself.

Gene, listen to what Stan said.

Then, slow it down to 33 and a 1/3 and listen to it again. All you really need to know about gears is in there, although it won't make a lot of sense until you've driven a few of these cars with different engines and different gears.

(You might try taping Stan's post and playing it backwards. Some people claim to hear a voice saying, "Elon is dead.")

The problem began back in 1933, when all cars had three gears and 50 mph was considered stupid fast. No car - certainly no dirt cheap People's Car - would ever need to go more than 50 mph. Twenty-five horsepower and three gears. Done.

Unfortunately, Mr. Porsche's boss on the People's Car project announced he was going to build a lot of autobahns where you could go 60 mph and the People's Car would now need to go 60 mph, too.

Oh, crap. What was a budding automotive engineer with a promising future to do, with a stubborn boss known to get more than a little grumpy when his commands were questioned?

Four speeds it was. The first three were what you mostly drove with - starting off from a stop, laboring up steep hills loaded down with the Frau and the Kinder, and cruising around the village of a Sunday. Fourth was a super-tall overdrive for getting the little doodlebug up to 60 on the autobahn - as long as the road didn't pitch up too much, which it wouldn't because, well, autobahn.

Anyway, here we are 90 years later, still saddled with the same basic problem. A crude, little engine with no low-end torque, a narrow usable rev range that whines like a banshee when much over 4000 rpm, and four measly gears.

Despite all protestations to the contrary, there's no one really sweet gearing solution. Everything except a five-speed is some sort of compromise. Otherwise, this thread wouldn't be nearly as long as it is.

And mark my words, it will be getting longer.

I have 6 speeds on my motorcycle.  Computer chipped at 150 mph max.... don’t ask me how I know! I have installed a fully rebuilt bus tranny in the speedster with the classic...wait for it.....freeway flyer gearing. I don’t have the specs in front of me but can dig them out if anyone would like....

I'll try to bring this to an end. I originally asked the question because there is a dealer that posts videos of his cars for sale on Youtube. Sometimes he says it has "highway flyer gearing" which I think he also says has 3:88 R&P. Then he gets another car and says it has a .082 O.D. 4th gear as if that's the best. When I first posted my question I had no idea what the trans ratios were or what the diff. ratios were. I have learned a lot. Thanks,

Gene

anything over 100 on a bike is crazy,,how does one hold on,,fairings are ok but its way out of my league

100 MPH on a bike is comfortable.  Over that not so much.

Two Up , 100mph on a Yamaha Raider for a short burst that's enough ~

Danny...Those gears were in a Baja Bug with a 2 liter engine.  A very fun car to drive on or off the road. I actually commuted in that car for a couple years thru LA Downtown traffic, plus drove it all over the So Cal Desert on weekends. On the street it had the right gearing . Even had some stoplight fun as well. Anyway, that gear set was real easy to get used to and I liked the way it pulled in every gear, especially 3&4  being moved down/closer to 1&2. Occasionally I would drive someone else's stock VW and grimace shifting into 3 and 4.  My  Speedster had 4.12 R&P and .82 4th. which made the final drive higher than a 3.88 R&P with the .89 4th.  My mistake was I didn't change 3rd and went up a bit.......As Stan says....he's on his 5th ?  I went Subaru this time.  Why ? They cost about the same plus you get a 5th gear. I am told, not fragile as well. There other reasons too. I went Subaru engine as well so there's a savings of over $500 bucks in adapters.  

These gearing chats are fun and interesting on occasion and, as demonstrated here, we have some real wise and knowledgeable experts with the experience to back up what they say. I am certainly not one of those. I am always amazed at the responses when someone asks a question.....any question. Thank you to all you knowledgeable  one's  (and you know who you are)...........Bruce

I rode bikes for 58 years and 200k miles. I have been 145mph on one, what does that have to do with anything I'm talking about? Once again, I think I have my answer.

Hi, Gene, welcome to our little group.

You seem like a sane man with reasonable expectations. If you buy a Speedster replica with a normal 1914 (or similar) engine you should expect about 90 horsepower and 110 torque when it's running well. Some of the well-built 1914s do 120/125. The engine will rev to 5000 rpm or more with good power, and the car weighs less than 2000 pounds (maybe less than 1800 pounds!) so it can feel like a sports car.

With your typical tires guys put on these, a 3.88 R&P and a .93 4th gear you're going to be turning 3000-ish rpm at 60mph. 

The .89 4th gear will lower that a tad. You'll be running 65 mph at 3000. It will sound loud. As a former Bug guy you might remember that sound. Maybe it won't disturb you.

It should not. It's actually fine!

The car will do every reasonable thing you could ask of it. 80 mph? Sure! That's 4000 rpm and right around your peak torque. Go faster if you want. Make noise!

Your shift up from 3rd to 4th will be fine. The other gear spacing will be fine too. 

Starting out in 1st gear the car will jump. It's lighter than a Bug and has twice the horsepower. It's actually great.

Stan (post above) has explained to you what not to do. But you won't be like Stan because you are not like Stan. You are a sane man with reasonable expectations.

To reiterate: Stock Bug gears work perfectly well. Get a beefed up transaxle (Super Diff, stronger side covers, hardened keys, welded 3rd and 4th) and you will not be able to break it unless you really try.

If you get a trans with a 3.88 R&P and an .82 4th it will not be good. The gap between 3rd and 4th is too much. I believe a 4.12 R&P with an .82 4th presents a similar problem. Third gear in these cars is always the same gear.

Now, if you decide you're not so sane, and spring for the well-built 2110 engine, that's 150 HP. It will spin easily to 6000 RPM and make 150 ft-lbs at 4000 RPM. You will be able to go very fast.

In that case, a 3.44 R&P with the .93 4th makes a lot of sense. Now you're spinning 3000 RPM at 70 mph, and your theoretical (not actual; you would die) top speed is 140 mph. And the car still screams out the hole and chirps second. A Speedster with a 2110 is a hot rod, and the longer legged transaxle gives it better highway manners, given that 80 mph is the going pace on most interstates.

Remember to upgrade the brakes.

Gene---Yikes!!! If I had seen some of these high tech posts before getting my Speedster I would have picked another hobby.  I have 4 forward gears and my car is just great.  We have made the 2,500 round trip to the Carlisle SOC club event running 75-80 all day getting close to 30 mpg thirteen times plus a West coast trip and back to AR for 3,500 or so miles.  I have no clue what gearing I have and don't care.  I could look it up if you'd like to know.  I do have maybe 140 hp at the flywheel  and I remember that my 4th gear is overdrive and I think the car performs a lot like a 5 speed as the gears seem perfectly well spaced from 1st to 4th.  Hell, I can easily start off in 2nd and do if it's even slightly down hill, so then it's a 3 gear xmission.  Worry about something else.  Use a good builder like Greg Leach or Henry at IM and get their advice based on your driving style and you can have a great car for no premium for gearing.  Good luck whatever you do.  Just my 2 cents and other's mileage may vary.  

As Jack says, it's quite possible to really enjoy one of these without getting all obsessive about gear ratios and such.  I would venture to guess that the high mileage folks on this forum, Jack and me among them, never worried too awful much about ratios.  Still, some of our number do enjoy the discussions, so don't be surprised if this one continues for a while.  Once the jar is opened, the Djinn can't be put back in.  Welcome to the Madness!

Jack Crosby posted:

Gene---Yikes!!! If I had seen some of these high tech posts before getting my Speedster I would have picked another hobby.  I have 4 forward gears and my car is just great.  We have made the 2,500 round trip to the Carlisle SOC club event running 75-80 all day getting close to 30 mpg thirteen times plus a West coast trip and back to AR for 3,500 or so miles.  I have no clue what gearing I have and don't care.  I could look it up if you'd like to know.  I do have maybe 140 hp at the flywheel  and I remember that my 4th gear is overdrive and I think the car performs a lot like a 5 speed as the gears seem perfectly well spaced from 1st to 4th.  Hell, I can easily start off in 2nd and do if it's even slightly down hill, so then it's a 3 gear xmission.  Worry about something else.  Use a good builder like Greg Leach or Henry at IM and get their advice based on your driving style and you can have a great car for no premium for gearing.  Good luck whatever you do.  Just my 2 cents and other's mileage may vary.  

 

Jack! Great to hear from you.

Didn't Jake Raby regear your transaxle when he built your bullet-proof (and not inexpensive) Type 4?

VW power- 1915 cc's- anywhere from 90 or 95 hp (stock heads, dual Kadron or Weber/Dellorto carbs, Engle W110 cam, 8½:1, 1½" exhaust) to 120-130 hp (ported stock valve or 40x35 mm heads, Webers or Del's, more cam, compression) options- 

Don't look at the older (1960 and older) split case transaxles- they're relatively fragile (by today's standards), parts are really hard to come by for rebuilding (and it may need to be gone through!), the gearing is really (really!) short (4.43 ring & pinion), you're limited to swingaxle and I don't think there are any easy brake upgrades (have I missed anything?). 1961 and newer type 1- depending on the year, 1st is 3.80 (early) or 3.78 (late mainshaft). While the 9 tooth 3.78 is stronger than the 10 tooth 3.80, for most people the 3.80 is fine. I bracket raced my 14 second 2,000 lb (with all 150 lb. of me in it) street car a 2-3 times a year over a 3? year period, accumulating 30-40 runs on the trans and never hurt the 3.80 1st gear. Now, slicks, wheels in the air and running low 12's or into the 11's, different story, but for our purposes it's fine (I think I already said that...).

2nd gear is 2.06, also part of the mainshaft (and also not easily changed- actually, it is, just add large amounts of $$$- like 1,000 or 1100 of 'em), it's perfectly strong enough for all but the very, very fastest cars and didn't change through the years. Only drawback- the 1-2 spacing is a little big for performance purposes but hey, a 4 speed is always a compromise.

3rd gear- 1.31 (early) or 1.26 (late) with (I believe) there being both coarse (early) and fine (late) tooth versions of the 1.26. the spacing difference is so slight you'd be hard pressed to tell what's what in a car. For a performance build (even when you think "I'll almost never stand on it") the hub/gear should be welded.

As you know, there are a number of different stock 4th gears- coarse toothed 0.89, later fine 0.88, fine? 0.93 and coarse 0.82. Beetles with both 4.375 (to '66) and 4.125 ('67- '72?) r&p's came with the 0.89 4th. When VW went to the 3.88 r&p (late '72?), the slipperier Karmann Ghia kept the 0.89 (or maybe it was the 0.88) for higher cruising speeds while the Beetle got the 0.93 due to it's poorer aerodynamics. With a 1600 in the Beetle overheating in 4th was an issue, so the Beetle's final drive didn't change with the new 4th/r&p ratio (4.125/.89=3.67 vs 3.88/.93=3.60 vs 3.88/.89=3.45). 0.82 is also a stock VW gear- it's out of certain year buses- more on that in a minute. Again, for any kind of 'spirited' driving, the gear/hub needs to be welded. 

1st- 3.80, 3.78                                                                                                                                  2nd- 2.06                                                                                                                                          3rd- 1.31, 1.26                                                                                                                                4th- 0.89, 0.88, 0.93, 0.82

As guys have already said- you probably don't want to mess with the stock gearstack. For most people, the stock 1st-4th is a good compromise and does all they want. A common trans modification is changing 4th gear from 0.89- 0.82 in hopes of higher cruising speeds (the dreaded freeway flier mod)- don't be tempted! It seems like a good idea, but it feels awkward to drive- Stan and a couple others who've tried it will attest to this, and can be the death sentence for all but the biggest engines. You'll create a 4-5 mph 'hole' where going up a hill (or even a slight rise), smaller engines don't have enough low end/lower midrange torque, so to keep speed up you'll either be revving higher than normal in 3rd or 'lugging' the engine in 4th where your foot is heavier on the gas pedal, the engine is using more gas/creating more heat and the fan is not spinning fast enough to cool the engine adequately. If it's only a few seconds it's not a real big deal, but with a climb of any length you'll watch the oil and head temps go through the roof! Treating any aircooled engine like that on a regular basis spells certain premature death. And it won't die in your driveway- it'll be somewhere out in the middle of nowhere.

A stock gearstack (example 1) and with the 0.82 4th (2)-                                                         http://www.teammfactory.com/ca.../0/0/3600/3600/1/0/2

Most guys like the longer legs of the 3.88 r&p; of course, with a 4 speed there's always a price to pay, and with higher cruising speeds it's acceleration off the line that suffers slightly. If you value 'ripping around town' above all else and you don't care about highway speeds then a 4.215 r&p may be the way to go. If acceleration from stop light to stop light isn't so important and you envision jumping in your car and touring is your thing, then the 3.88 is 'it'.   http://www.teammfactory.com/ca.../0/0/3600/3600/1/0/2

If you're looking for a transaxle for your car- the newer you find, the better. VW updated these things constantly as design flaws were discovered so later units are somewhat stronger (and more trouble free). Stay away from anything from the early '60's (trouble finding parts to rebuild, short 4.37 r&p). Anything from '67-'72 will have a 4.125 r&p, newer will have a 3.88- if the trans is original. The 3.88 can be fitted in the earlier transaxles. Remember these are 45, 50, even 60 years old, may have been rebuilt once, twice, even 3 times already so who knows what's inside. It can be a bit of a crap shoot. There's also the option of going to a trans builder and buying what you want outright.

Ok, I think even my head's full. Hope this helps. Al

Stan Galat posted:

Jack Crosby posted:

Gene---Yikes!!! If I had seen some of these high tech posts before getting my Speedster I would have picked another hobby.  I have 4 forward gears and my car is just great.  We have made the 2,500 round trip to the Carlisle SOC club event running 75-80 all day getting close to 30 mpg thirteen times plus a West coast trip and back to AR for 3,500 or so miles.  I have no clue what gearing I have and don't care.  I could look it up if you'd like to know.  I do have maybe 140 hp at the flywheel  and I remember that my 4th gear is overdrive and I think the car performs a lot like a 5 speed as the gears seem perfectly well spaced from 1st to 4th.  Hell, I can easily start off in 2nd and do if it's even slightly down hill, so then it's a 3 gear xmission.  Worry about something else.  Use a good builder like Greg Leach or Henry at IM and get their advice based on your driving style and you can have a great car for no premium for gearing.  Good luck whatever you do.  Just my 2 cents and other's mileage may vary.  

 

Jack! Great to hear from you.

Didn't Jake Raby regear your transaxle when he built your bullet-proof (and not inexpensive) Type 4?

Stan--good to hear from you too---I read all your posts every day and have printed a few to save!  I'll dig out some info next time I'm in the now mostly unused office.  I don't recall much xmission details except it is geared to not ever have to downshift from 4th on the steepest hills even with the.82 final gear. 

I did an "advanced search" (Little spyglas sat the top of this page) on Jack Crosby and gear ratios and got what looks like Jack's entire life history since kindergarten, including the build of his 2143 type 4 engine and "special" ratio transmission.  All of that can be seen here (you can start at page 1 - this link starts you at page 3 out of 12).  The "Massive Type IV guy is Jake Raby, the builder:

https://www.speedsterowners.co...ith-jake-raby?page=4

Just to help out and whet your appetite, here are a couple of hits from Jack and Jake Raby, the builder:

Jake is building a special transmission with the same gears in 1st and 2nd but taller gearing for 3rd and 4th. With such torque I'll probably not use 1st any more and will start off in 2nd gear. Most around town driving will be in 3rd and on the highway 4th will be like a tall overdrive.

My "overdrive" 4th gear is .821 with a 4.120 R/P and 25" tall tires.
I turn 4500 RPM at 100 MPH and 88 MPH at 4,000.

I have 132 ft lb of torque from 3,500 to 6,800 RPMs (and 120 at 8,000 RPMs so it doesn't drop off all that much.)

It dyno'd at 143 hp at 6,500 RPMs. This is not a huge Type IV engine---just 2,143 cc with 40 Dells and race balanced. 

molleur posted:

100 MPH on a bike is comfortable.  Over that not so much.

Many large displacement bikes (even heavy cruisers) don't even settle in the sweet spot until 80 mph. 100 mph with no one around is quite comfortable.

And yes, a fairing where you look just over the windshield with air passing above your helmet is the great equalizer.

* To the OP, thread drift is the best part about many of these hobby forums. 

Here's a chart I saved that lists years used, transaxle code and trans R&P ratios.  It is a worldwide chart so some of the transaxles not exported to the US.  Some are LSD too.

http://www.midsouthvw.com/Tech...ip_TransaxleCode.htm

Looks like the holey grail is - from a '71 KarmannGhia

AR        1600           3.875          KG with LSD from 1971

Oh Gene, 

What have you done?!!

WOLFGANG posted:

Here's a chart I saved that lists years used, transaxle code and trans R&P ratios.  It is a worldwide chart so some of the transaxles not exported to the US.  Some are LSD too.

http://www.midsouthvw.com/Tech...ip_TransaxleCode.htm

Looks like the holey grail is - from a '71 KarmannGhia

AR        1600           3.875          KG with LSD from 1971

No Factory equipped LSD transaxle was ever installed in a car and shipped to Canada or the USA; that's why a ZF is so hard to find here. 

TRP posted:

Oh Gene, 

What have you done?!!

The box has been opened, Ted, look out! 

WNGD posted:

* To the OP, thread drift is the best part about many of these hobby forums. 

I don't agree. It's a complete PIA when you need to search for something. 

Hi, Gene.

Mitch here.

You may remember me from 20 posts higher up in this thread. I mentioned that there might be a few more comments.

Most of them from perfectly decent and well-intentioned folks who want to assure you that you absolutely don't need a five-speed. And that they have just the four-speed solution for you that they have been driving for the past 26 years with absolutely NO problems at all.

Some of them have driven from Antarctica to the Bay of Fundy in perfect bliss.

I'm not disputing their claims. Not one bit. There's nothing really wrong with four speeds.

The truth is, the more low-end torque you have, the fewer gears you need. Theoretically, with the right engine, you would need only one gear.

And to be honest, putting in a five-speed is a bit of a bother. It's not like you can just go to Amazon, check the boxes for 'five-speed' and 'free, two-day delivery', and have one on your porch just like that.

The special bits they're made from are hand-crafted by elves in the Black Forest, who only work on certain days of the year. Those bits then must be sent to specially credentialed gearbox genies, who are usually temperamental about their work. Also, you need to find a whole separate four-speed transmission to use as a donor before you start out. After waiting the required number of months for all the magic to happen, you would think you could just bolt a five-speed right into your car where the four-speed had been. Well, you sort of can, almost. In some Speedsters.

But, not in some others.

So, most guys never get to that. Most guys are smarter than I am. They realize that actually getting a five-speed entails just a bit more suffering than they're willing to endure (or that their wives are willing to endure), so they find solace in other solutions. Some sell their cars and devote the rest of their lives to doing good works.

Most end up working their way up through a series of engines with more and more low-end torque (remember, more torque, fewer gears).

Heck, I'm no racer, 1600 will be just fine for me. A 1915 should be all the power I'll ever need. A 2110 is THE sweet spot - no need to go any bigger. This 2332 is unbelievably awesome. I can't believe how much SMOOTHER everything is with the Suby. You know, a turbo Suby would still fit under the deck lid.

Anyway, bottom line is start out with a bigger engine than you ever thought you would need. Trust me, five speeds or four, if you want to drive in real world traffic, you will need.

I'll check back here again, in another 15 or 20 posts, to see how you're getting along.