Trans/final drive ratios

gkgeiger posted:

I'll try to bring this to an end. I originally asked the question because there is a dealer that posts videos of his cars for sale on Youtube. Sometimes he says it has "highway flyer gearing" which I think he also says has 3:88 R&P. Then he gets another car and says it has a .082 O.D. 4th gear as if that's the best. When I first posted my question I had no idea what the trans ratios were or what the diff. ratios were. I have learned a lot. Thanks,

Gene

The term highway or 'freeway flyer' and was coined by a now defunct company (Transform- they had great full page ads in Hot VW's) in the very late '70's/early '80's, the 0.82 4th gear as a way of lowering highway rpm's to get better mileage. The problem- most VW's can't carry a spread that large between 3rd and 4th and engines (especially < 2 liter) overheat and die. And the mileage didn't get better either, since your foot was into it more of the time.

If you upshift at 3500 rpm into 2nd with a stock transaxle, the recovery rpm (or rpm in the next gear) is about 1900 rpm. 2nd to 3rd is approx 2200 rpm and 3rd to 4th is 2400-2500 rpm (depending on 4th gear). As the car goes faster the recovery rpm has to be higher with each shift to make the best use of the engine's power. All car companies build their transmissions like this- it's the only way smaller engines survive. Looked at another way- if all it took to get better gas mileage in a Beetle was a taller gear, don't you think VW would have figured it out a long time ago?

Engines approaching 2 liters and larger have enough torque to survive with the longer 3-4 spacing but you still have to watch that you don't get into the habit of 'lugging' it at too low an rpm. And once you've driven a type 1 4 speed for a while it just doesn't feel right. Hence why people spend the cash on a Berg 5 speed. Al

Al, you are right, as with the 3:44 R&P, and stock 4 sp  I always found myself when the posted speed was 40mph/60kph driving somewhere between too high or too low even with a 2110cc.  I don't have the issue with the full subie engine tranny setup. Yet,  in fifth it turns 3100rpm so every once in a while I listen to the engine I want to shift to the next gear so it would be nice for highway cruising to have a 6th gear    Just saying. 

As you mentioned the gear ratios are pretty awesome for the twisties.

@Sacto Mitch has tipped his hand.

Those of you who may not know him might think that he's just an incredibly witty writer who understands a thing or two about this 'n that.

Don't be fooled. He's one of those guys. One of the cool kids.

Look at yourself. Then look at Mitch. Then look at yourself. Then Mitch again. Sadly, you are not Mitch.

He's got all his hair, which has turned a very nice shade of silver, and is cut and styled every week by a woman named Kandi (who coincidentally also does George Clooney's hair). He's 6'2" and weighs about a buck-90. He works out every day from 5:00 AM- 9:00 AM, before heading off to the tanning salon. He eats sparingly, drinks spring water, and has had his teeth capped and whitened.

He did very well in the markets, and retired early from a very successful career in print journalism, where he won 3 Pulitzers and had a book on the NYT best-seller list for 198 weeks running. Weinstein bought the rights to his life story before... well... you know.

His first wife died tragically in a sailing accident. He was inconsolable for 2 years, but somehow found love again. Now, he's married to a Scandinavian model 40 years his junior. They have one adorable little girl named Sunshine. He's teaching Sunshine Latin and they practice cello together in the afternoon. They vacation every Christmas in St. Kits and summer in Tuscany.

He also has a 5-speed. He doesn't like to brag, but, well... 5 speeds. F I V E forward gears.

5.

*cough* five *cough*

₅

Anything less is just uncivilized.

@gkgeiger

Gene, "Welcome to the Madness" known as replica Speedster ownership.

Once you get whatever replica Speedster suites your need (budget/driving preference) I wish you many miles of enjoying top-down driving in one of these cars. After all, the car is really just a 55-year old VW beetle that identifies as a 65 year old Speedster.

My only advice (tongue-in-cheek);

1. Do not ask what is the best oil to use in 'said' vehicle. What will ensue is a 30-page, 500-response filibuster to overload your decision process.  

2. Should you seek simple tech tips, I suggest you first read 'War and Peace' by Leo Tolstoy. Once you've finished the 1,300 page read, you'll have gleaned the proper patience to weed through the myriad of "...I've done this for xxxx years (or xxxx many times) and this is the best way to do it".  

3. Be wary about polling for optimum transmission gearing because....wait, what! Too late...  

3. If you decide to sell 'said' vehicle be wary about posting it on here. What will ensue is a 40-page 800-critique response.  

All kidding aside, I hope you'd join in on an SOC event or cruise with this great group of down-to-earth gearheads sharing the same madness. The shenanigans that ensue is definitely worth the price of admission. 

"Welcome To The Madness"! 

Gene:

Listen to MUSBJIM!

Stan, you are too kind.

People DO expect more of you when you have a five-speed.

Showing up with the car for all of those charity events can get tedious, but noblesse oblige, you know.

You've gotten most of the details of my life right, except for the tanning salon.

This is California, after all. The sun is always shining here.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

Stan, you are too kind.

People DO expect more of you when you have a five-speed.

Showing up with the car for all of those charity events can get tedious, but noblesse oblige, you know.

You've gotten most of the details of my life right, except for the tanning salon.

This is California, after all. The sun is always shining here.

 

 

Mitch, I love it when you go off of your meds. You can capture perfectly the essence of speedster ownership and the experiences on this board. Whereas most of us, as so well put by Steve Martin, uh, not have a way with words!

Gene welcome and I hope you enjoy this crazy crowd at least half as much as I have. Now about the best oil to use...

Mike

Noblesse Oblige now that is a term that I have not heard much except in France.  

Hey, I'm gonna have a 5-speed too!  Will that make me cool like Mitch?

Lane Anderson posted:

Hey, I'm gonna have a 5-speed too!  Will that make me cool like Mitch?

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

And to be honest, putting in a five-speed is a bit of a bother. It's not like you can just go to Amazon, check the boxes for 'five-speed' and 'free, two-day delivery', and have one on your porch just like that.

The special bits they're made from are hand-crafted by elves in the Black Forest, who only work on certain days of the year. Those bits then must be sent to specially credentialed gearbox genies, who are usually temperamental about their work. Also, you need to find a whole separate four-speed transmission to use as a donor before you start out. After waiting the required number of months for all the magic to happen, you would think you could just bolt a five-speed right into your car where the four-speed had been. Well, you sort of can, almost. In some Speedsters.

 

...

Most end up working their way up through a series of engines with more and more low-end torque (remember, more torque, fewer gears).

 

 

Strumming my pain with his fingers
Singing my life with his words
Killing me softly with his song

Lane, I've only got some five-speed.

No matching numbers. No Certificate of Eccentricity.

You will have a super coupe. No, the super coupe. The very first one ever.

Someday, they're going to be beating a path to Bonham's just for a chance to bid on that car.

You'll have something they can't make in a shop.

You'll have some damned provenance there.

My favorite thread I’ve ever started, ever. 😍

gkgeiger posted:

My favorite thread I’ve ever started, ever. 😍

You fit in just fine, Gene.

@Gkgeiger, I tried to drift it for you, but it was too far gone. Somewhere in there is your solution, for your car, the way you want it to work. Enjoy the drive! Let the madness rein!

Yeah, I’ll bet the drift took you by surprise, but we’re all used to it.

We’re all true ‘Mur’can “Characters” in the truest sense - Mark Twain would have a field day using us as inspiration.  

In fact, Gene, you should find a copy of the book, “Actual Mileage. -  Stories by Max Zimmer” to give you a little more insight into this bunch of crazies.  It’s a really good read in and of itself, and you’ll learn a bit more about a lot of us, too, including Lane and his erstwhile “Provenance”.

Available on Amazon Books and/or Kindle, or iBooks on Apple (or a real book, if you’re like Stan).   Most of us have signed the cover art, too.     Gordon

IaM-Ray posted:

Noblesse Oblige now that is a term that I have not heard much except in France.  

Does that go along with Prima Nocta? The boys in Bremen told me I have that right with Lane's coupe.

BTW, Stan really gave you a beeeyotch slap with the 8-ball, @Lane Anderson!

That was funny!

@Gordon Nichols I'll bet Gene could get his very own copy signed by the master hisself if he gets  to Carlisle from Ohio this year. Cheers!

"We’re all true ‘Mur’can “Characters” in the truest sense ..."

Not all of us, Gordo. 

Bob: IM S6 posted:

"We’re all true ‘Mur’can “Characters” in the truest sense ..."

Not all of us, Gordo. 

I would counter, close enough, Bob!

Sorry Danny, but Carey lied to you. As for Stan, well THBFFT!!!!!

Again for those in the back: Mitch:

And Stan:

THIS is the difference between 5 gears and 4.

(And me):

edsnova posted:

Again for those in the back: Mitch:

And Stan:

THIS is the difference between 5 gears and 4.

I deeply regret that there is no "love" button for this comment.

@edsnova for the win.

Oo, Oo, Oo, Oo.   Car 54

DannyP posted:

Bob: IM S6 posted:

"We’re all true ‘Mur’can “Characters” in the truest sense ..."

Not all of us, Gordo. 

I would counter, close enough, Bob!

Eh ? 

Would that we could all adjust the gear ratios in our own brains to match what @MusbJim runs in his.

I like Turtles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IclTEJ1zU7Q

edsnova posted:

Would that we could all adjust the gear ratios in our own brains to match what @MusbJim runs in his.

Oh, so true...

I'm waiting for a CVT transmission (a shiftless transmission) in a Speedster.  Surprised the lesser Subaru models haven't picked up on them.  I personally don't like all the whizzing noises and would avoid any car with one.  Years ago I looked at a Nissan Murano - but discovered the CVT was not recommended for any towing.  I hear they are lubricated with banana peels.

Our new Outback has a CVT and is rated for up to 3500 pounds.  Nissan seems to be the only one who doesn't think their CVTs can tow.

Came back to the website after a long hiatus and I am very pleasantly surprised at the wealth of knowledge not only from the same great old timers and repeat offenders but also members I didn't know back in the day in the early to mid 2000's. Related to this post I am curious as to what type of "freeway flier" in terms of gearing my 2004 VS came with. I notice a little bit of a spread between 3rd and 4th to the point where it is annoying to be trailing someone driving 40 something MPH because if you downshift to 3rd you feel the car revving up and if you shift to 4th you lug it. Would any of you happen to know? Thank you all in advance!

More facts are needed, but I'm betting that your "freeway flier" was a 4.11/.82 with a stock 3rd. It's an enormous drop between 3rd and 4th.

If I was a betting man I'd go with what Stan said.

Me three.

Stan (and Al and Danny) are probably right.

But, by 2013 when I got my VS, Kirk's 'freeway flyer' option meant something a little different. They started with a gearbox that had 'normal' VW gearing (.89 4th), and swapped in a 3.88 R&P for the stock 4.11. Of course, 'normal' VW gearing varied some over the course of VW production, depending on the model year and the model of VW - sedan or bus.

But there were also some 'production anomalies' at the shop in Hawaiian Gardens. Frinstance, when we eventually opened my 'freeway flyer', instead of the 3.88 that was supposed to be there, the R&P was a 4.11 and 4th was a .92. So, the overall effect was just the opposite of what a 'freeway flyer' was supposed to do. I was spinning more revs on the freeway than normal VW gearing and a 4.11 would have done. Moral of the story - you can't really be sure what's inside unless you crack the case and look.

I had a new box built with normal gearing (again, .89 4th) and a 3.88 and drove that for about two years. I saw exactly what you describe - too much of a hole between 3rd and 4th. On even a slight hill, at 45-50, you were either lugging 4th or spinning too many revs in 3rd. On a stock VW, the 3-4 gap is wide enough, but switching from a 4.11 to a 3.88 R&P effectively widens the gaps between all the gears. The 3-4 gap just gets worse.

The best fix for this (and the most expensive and biggest PIA) is a five-speed conversion, keeping the 3.88 R&P and .89 top gear, but dropping 3rd down a little and putting a new gear about halfway between 3rd and top gear.

As described at length in the many posts in this thread, there are four-speed solutions that will accomplish almost the same thing, but it sure helps if you have a motor that makes lots more low-end torque than a stock 1600.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

On a stock VW, the 3-4 gap is wide enough, but switching from a 4.11 to a 3.88 R&P effectively widens the gaps between all the gears. The 3-4 gap just gets worse.

 

 

This is interesting news to me. I figured the gap between gears is determined by the gears themselves, and changing the R&P would simply move the shift points up or down the powerband. 

Now I gotta jump down the gear ratio rabbit hole again and school meself....

EDIT:

aaand I'm back.

By this calculator, the difference in RPM drop between a stock Bug trans with 3.44 vs a 3.88 R&P shifting from 1st to second at 5500 RPM is.... 15 RPM.

The 3.44 trans shifts at 32 mph and drops the engine to 3001 rpm; the 3.88 at 26 mph and drops to 2986. 

Oddly, the longer ratio ring gear creates less gap—albeit negligibly so.^ 

First-second is the biggest drop between gears. The 3rd-4th upshift occurs, respectively, at 96 mph and 78 mph and drops the tach to 4064 or 4035, a whopping 29 rpm difference. 

A reasonably built and tuned street VW engine will make peak HP in the 5500 RPM range and drop only a percent or two at 6000, while making peak torque around 3800-4000 RPM and only a little less 1000 RPM below that. 

This means that with any kind of reasonable* engine, the stock Bug gear gaps are going to be fine.

Swapping in a .89 4th gear widens the 3-4 gap a lot more than changing the diff.: 3890 vs 3861, close to 200 RPM. 

An .82 gear just kills the car: 3557 RPM in the 3.88 and 3584 in the 3.44. 

A 3rd-4th upshift at the redline that puts you 500 RPM below peak torque is NG.

==

^This result makes me question the validity of the math inside this calculator, but I don't feel like doing math right now.

*Offer void in Stanistan

It does move the range up or down, but it also effectively changes the spacing between them as well.

I take it by changing the R&P your shifting the torque area or curve that the gear is on and this then  will move you in or out of the range of the powerband of the engine and for each gear.  Wow, so that gets even more screwey and maybe you would need to plot engine rpm then overlay the gears... sounds like fun. 

Ah forget plotting it out just drive it  

Here a graph of standard VW gears (late 60s, with .89 fourth) with the two R&P's. The red bars are the 3.88, blue are 4.12. (Click on the chart to enlarge and make the numbers easier to read)

In first gear, there's not much difference, but the difference increases the higher gear you're in. The gears are 'farther apart' with the freeway flyer.

Here's the link to the original graph, where you can read all the details and slide the cursor around to read speed in gears at any engine speed.