Transmission mounts

Gordon, I have them and they do transmit vibration. I also have a metal trans strap with no rubber whatsoever. The CB mounts are yellow urethane, even though the pic is gray(black and white?).

 

Initially the added vibration bothered me a little, but the benefit in handling is apparent on a swingaxle.

 

I really don't notice it any more, but feel it in the steering wheel a tiny bit. Not at cruise on the highway, hi rev spirited stuff only.

Give Gene Berg a call for a good trans mount.  I fabricated some Teflon blocks and used small rubber bushings for my set-up for more support instead of the rubber mounts supplied from Berg.  Have Fun!

^ Pretty trick idea! I learn something new EVERY TIME I visit this site! 

Gordon- When we add power to these things, the stock rubber mounts don't last as long, and you have to accept it. New stock mounts (there are also harder rubber VW mounts; Gene Berg Ent. used to sell them) and a way to anchor the engine/transaxle assembly so it doesn't move is (I believe) the answer. Tying the rear shock towers together and from there down to the frame horns, a transaxle mid-mount, along with an engine support bar (or rear engine mount) goes a long way to tightening up the rear end and preventing frame horn flex (and engine/trans movement). The first thing is called a  rear suspension truss, kafer or torque bar and is a fairly new arrival on the VW market. Aircooled.net has several- http://vwparts.aircooled.net/S...asp?Search=truss+bar  I've always thought the rear roll bar supports could tie into the top of the truss bar somewhere...

 

The mid-mount was originated by Gene Berg and has been around awhile, and a rear engine mount that works in a Speedster would have to be custom made. The metal trans strap that Danny is talking about solid mounts the trans to the frame horns and was originally designed to keep off road cars from tearing up the front mount and breaking the shift rod housing on the fronts of transaxles.

 

 

I pulled motor and trans out a few weeks ago to do a cooler install and new jugs and rings.

After I rolled it out from under the car something was under the car on the floor, tranny mount had separated ( nose  cone) because the bonding had failed. All my mounts were new before Carlisle last year with about  800 miles on them.

 

Following Gordons solution with interest.

 

Add a midmount; either

 

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/E...yeball-mid-mount.htm or

 

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/F...termediate-mount.htm

So as I see it in the two shown immediately above, the top one is slightly wider and needs to have the snubber stops welded to the frame horns, while the lower one is narrower and has the snubbers pushing on the bottom of the frame horns (and is 1/3 the price of the top one).

 

Why would I want to do the top one?  Is there a torque advantage with it?  It looks very similar to Berg's, but it would seem likely that the bottom one would work just as well without any welding.  Or am I wrong?

 

BTW:  I'll be going with a Rhino mount kit for all mounting bushings.  Haven't decided on a Kafer brace, but now you've got me thinking.....

 

Anybody got a good, cost-effective Kafer Brace in mind that they've used?  I'd like to stay under $200 for one, but not if the low-cost models are flimsy.  The $149 model in Al's previous post looks pretty good, but is anyone using one?

Gordon- I think the cheaper, easier to install unit would work well IF, when it was installed, was snug up against the frame horns. Not all frame horns are exactly the same shape (some years are slightly different than others, and some will have a bit of bend and/or twist to them), though, and if it doesn't fit snugly (or with a small amount of pre-load) then (I think) it's a waste of money.

 

On the other hand, you know the one with the weld in tabs will be solid if installed correctly. Interesting that the Berg unit (and they're the ones that invented the thing) is $10 cheaper http://www.geneberg.com/product_info.php?cPath=11_351&products_id=1064

 

Looking in the Berg site, I just came across the oem hd rear trans mounts-

http://www.geneberg.com/product_info.php?cPath=345&products_id=1059

 

There's been a thread or 2 on the effectiveness of the various kafer bars on the Samba; some have been rated better than others. Whether it matters in a street car that will never try to lift the front wheels off the ground, I don't know...

 

Here's a pic of someone's (I stole it off this intraweb thingy from I don't know who; if it's someone here then my apologies) homemade kafer bar with roll bar mounts attached (the reason I saved it). For someone with even elementary fabricating skills and an irs car this would be a very inexpensive way to do it, as there's no heim joints used and all you need is the tubing and a welder (and a couple of threaded ends). It's just a little more permanent...

 

 

I had the Berg rear tranny mount rubbers on the list, then heard from Carey that they use the Rhino kit for all three and have had good results with them (and a kit is easier to order, so.....)  In this case, I think it's 6 of one and a half dozen of the other.

 

Welding in the intermediate mount snubber braces isn't a big deal, and it would also be interesting to have the snubbers adjustable for a mild amount of pre-load.  I'm gonna think on how I might accomplish that with either design and then decide on which one.  jschlotz up above has the idea, but if they were easily adjustable after installed, that would be cool, too.

 

I'll check the Samba for the threads on rear braces and go from there.  It would also be nice to be able to preload the brace structure back there, too, so something with Heim joints would be better.  

 

I figure that if the engine is out it should be easy to get all of the other stuff swapped, and dropping the xmission is a 30 minute job on an IRS.  

 

When I was building Pearl up in the '90's I didn't have the benefit of a forum like this and my VW skills were, ummmm, old.  A lot of the stuff that should have gotten done during the build got done years later, but at least they're getting done eventually....lots of little things, though.

 

Friggin list of "To-Do's" keeps growing.......Now at 30.  Gotta stop looking at catalogs.

I've installed the Berg intermediate mount on mine, and you set it up with a 1/8"? (maybe 1/16?) spacer/washer under each rubber mount to weld in the tabs, and then remove them for final installation. And while it would be nice to use heim joints on the kafer bar for preload, if they're welded in place then they're not moving. I'm not saying it's the only way to do it, but it's low budget and it would work. Al 

Here are a few photos of a rear brace that I installed 10 or 12 years ago.  It ties together the upper shock mounts and has adjustable braces to each frame horn end.  This was a bolt-on installation.  I got the brace from a guy in Michigan, I believe, who was custom producing them. Probably the best money I ever spent on the Speedster. Less engine movement means less slop in clutch and throttle cables.  Have fun.

 

The second one pulls away from the frame horns during deceleration/reverse. I would think you might feel some clunking between shifts and such, but I've never run one. The first one wouldn't have that problem.

Gordon, I really don't want to know about how you mount your tranny.

Justin:  Got'cha.  After looking at a bunch of info on them I figured that out, too.  Much better design all around.

 

Looks like I'll go with the Berg one - never had a problem with any Berg stuff.

 

OK now I have to wade through the info on the Samba for a rear truss brace.  Good thing it's cold out and I'm staying in.......lotsa reading going on.

Would you share your findings/conclusions when you're finished? I remember people thinking some were more effective than others and I'd like to hear what you think. 

 

And good point Justin; I forgot about the up/down movement thing.

OK, Al.....Will do.

 

Got busy this morning doing "life" things but in a nutshell so far - they all are better than nothing, the welded in ones (like in the pan photo up above) are the stiffest, and then it's a fight over the one "I" bought versus the one "You" bought (the rhetorical I and You).  The Bugpack seems to be the best bang for the buck, plus I can get it through Aircooled, where I'm ordering a whole bunch of other stuff, too, whereas the intermediate mount from Berg looks most cost effective.

 

Now....Whether they are in stock or not remains to be seen.

BTW:  Some other things I'll be dealing with are:  

- Checking the main seals on both the tranny and engine  - one of them is weeping

- Replacing the output shaft bearing in the tranny

- New front seals (to the pan) for tranny, clutch and throttle

- new clutch disk (Daikin "Super Disk" 200mm)

- Check pressure plate for trueness (scheduled time in a local machine shop)

- Re-vamped throw-out bearing - I totally missed doing this right 16 years ago

- new front longitudinal stiffeners

- new shift rod coupler urethane inserts (because they're easy)

- new steering coupler (to replace the shoddy one from my donor car)

- New Sump gasket set (silicone set - once and forever!)

- Upgraded fuel filters (2)

- Finally fix my horn wire issues - How the hell do others do this once and do it right????????  Mine wraps around the lower steering column and eventually wears through and shorts.

- Generally check for rust/rot in a car "restored" 18 years ago.

Homemade. This one is replacing the old rear mount, which won't fit when you slide the transaxle back 3/4 an inch. The 1x1 tube is to be part of a rear subframe beefing the frame horns and extending past the torsion tube, which is where the pan tends to flex. or so I've been told. 

 

 

 

Very happy to hear those yellow Rhino mounts work as advertised. 

Gordon- Glad to hear you're on it.  On a more serious note, what I remember of that discussion was they were getting pretty nit-picky about various details, and as I said before, I thought that (for the majority of street cars) any one of them would have done the trick. If any of them had major failings, it would only become an issue with the most powerful (2%? 5%?) of cars. The important thing (in my tiny little bean) was that they all cut down on frame horn flex and tied the tops of the shock towers together. If you could post the link to it I'll read it again as well, and then we could compare notes.

 

What attracted me to the pic I posted was that it was rock solid, inexpensive to do, an irs transaxle could be removed and installed with the pieces welded in place and that it incorporated mounts for the rear braces of a roll bar (so the thing would actually protect the occupants should the car go feet up and not fold like a pretzel).

That list will keep you busy for a little while. Al

 

Great ingenuity, Ed. I tried aftermarket mounts (they were red) in my 14 second street car about 30 years ago (early '80's, I think) and they didn't last all that long. I had the best success with stock mounts and an engine support bar (the kind that go underneath the engine case just in front of the oil pump. Al

 

 

Ed's gonna be fabricating an engine mount soon for his Sooby install......and lots of other things.

Gordon- I had a read through this- http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=467126&highlight=truss and John Connoly (sp?) from Aircooled.net commented that even the Mendeola "Stiffy" is not perfect. He said- " all 3 bars have to imaginary intersect at the same point ON THE SHOCK MOUNT (in 3 planes, not just 1 or 2), which they do not. As it is, the plate will flex and eventually crack/fatigue if the car has any HP. This is because as the engine/trans drops, it LEVERS the 1/4" thick plate downwards, there is no upwards support on the mount.
The down rods are also aimed too far "inboard", not at the shock boss mount, and this will create massive torque that will overwhelm the bolt and/or weld. All 3 of these rods must intersect at their imaginary extensions to eliminate this torque, and for them to support one another as they are supposed to. The amount of torque is lessened if the rods are longer, bringing their mount closer to the shock boss, but as it is now there is a massive leverage point that will fail."

 

Kevin's reply was that the 1/4" plate and hardware used was up to the task of holding the thing together and and that a VW couldn't develop enough force to bend/break the thing (I've condensed and paraphrased here).

 

A read through another thread where people were commenting/critiquing different bars (I think Bugpack, Fastfab, Eyeball Engineering) and all suffer from the same issues to some degree (the Bugpack more than the others).

 

A pic of the "Stiffy"- I'd like to find out what it weighs; it doesn't look light.

Yoda out.

 

 

 

 

Well, with a thread that long, it looks like I'll have plenty to do this evening......

 

Thanks, Al!

OK, Al....... I read through 85% of that thread before I fell asleep.

 

My brain is full.

 

Kevin (and a couple of others in there) sure is one feisty, clever guy.....Not much open to the thoughts of others, though.  I gave that stuff up when I retired.  Now I just go with the flow.

 

My engine is 145-150 HP.  I am 64 years old and my racing days are over - all I wanna do is stop tearing out motor mounts and stiffen up the horn rails.

 

So what I gleaned from all that reading is that pretty much ANY of the truss's mentioned will work in my case.  I don't have 300+ hp.  I don't have a "Shift-a-later 10,000" high-bucks transmission.  I'm not doing burn-outs to impress the girls - the look of the car (and having a cute, Jack Russell Terror with me) will do that.

 

So I ordered a BugPak Rear Truss Assy. from John at Aircooled, and a GB 643 tranny intermediate mount assy. from Gene Berg Ent.

 

Along with a full brain, I now have an empty wallet.

 

Along with that, I'm adding Rhino motor mounts because Carey Hines recommended them, and while I have everything out of there I'll be doing a bunch of other stuff to correct minor blunders I made when I originally built her in the late 1990's when I didn't know any better and just generally bringing her up to snuff for another decade of fun.

 

Now, if someone could give me a good source for that "D" shaped, self-adhesive door and hood weatherstrip that actually works (I think MusBJim uses it, and Dr. Clock) I'll spend some more money (but there's not much left!)

 

Thanks for the help.  I'll do a pictorial, complete with glossy 8 X 10's and aerial photography when I do the installs (or maybe I'll just provide a link to Ed's site - he already did a lot of what I'm about to do!).  It's gonna be a busy March/April at the Speedstahguy's shop!

 

gn

 

BTW:  It probably would have been much cheaper to do a home-brew version as you showed us much earlier, but the "bolt-in" hook got me and if I minimize the welding and stinking up the garage (not to mention all the smoke) then my wife and neighbors don't yell at me or give me strange looks.  Well, they still do when I'm in my bike riding get-up, but I'm getting used to it.

I have the Fast Fab kafer truss. It is one inch tubing. Some others are 3/4".

Check out CSPs kafer bar.  Pretty solidly built.

Yes it is, and for way more money ($412 USD plus shipping from Germany? - I don't think so!.)  Plus, all of the mounting tabs are shipped loose to be welded in.  That's a lotta welding.  Fine, if you're drag racing the car, but overkill for what I want.

 

Mike:  Some of them I checked out were 1-1/2" tubing, too.  Looks like 1" will do the job for me.

Well, parts are slowly rolling in.

 

Got the transmission intermediate mount from the Berg folks.

 

VERY well made, very heavy construction, nice neat welds.  The plate that mates to the transmission studs I thought would be made of 1/4" steel plate.  Didn't expect to see something 3/8" thick!  The kit comes with four longer studs to replace those in the case.

 

The cross-member that holds the rubber snubbers is 1/8" wall 1-1/4" pipe and the snubber stops are made of 3/16" steel.

 

All of it is powder-coated with a matt black, crinkle-finish.

 

Still too cold to get out there for more than a few minutes (and forget about picking up a metal tool) so all I'm doing is cleaning the garage and getting ready to get ready.

 

gn

Sounds like I should've bought what you bought instead of taking three weeks of Sundays to make something not as good.

Does the Berg thing require welding?

The Berg "Intermediate" mount is a cross-brace that attaches to four of the transmission case studs.  The kit has longer studs to replace the existing ones to give enough length to accept the 3/8" thick mounting plate.

 

Once the cross-brace is bolted to the transmission case, you assemble a pair of rubber snubbers to the brace which stick up along the outside of the frame horns.  

 

The top of the snubbers are bolted to a pair of small brackets that they will press up against.  

 

The brackets are held against the outside of the frame horns and tack-welded to the horns (one on each side).  

 

The snubbers are removed and the welds on the braces are completed, being careful not to burn through on the driver's side, as that's where the fuel line is routed.

 

On another thought, I and others have been telling people forever that you can pull a VW engine in 45 minutes.  I suspect that, as one gets older that might stretch out a bit, plus getting oil hoses and external filters out of the way from our "custom" installations can eat up even more time.  I think a solid hour just to get everything out of the way and the four motor bolts loosened might be more accurate, but I'm there and forging ahead.  

 

Or maybe those three breaks to get rid of used tea might have had something to do with it.....

Still have to pull the carbs because of the tight frame rails on a CMC  but with all of the heat shields out it's easy to get at everything now....

 

 

How do you think this one compares:

 

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/F...termediate-mount.htm 

I looked at that one and seriously considered it until I sat there and REALLY looked at it and compared it to the Berg version.  

 

When you look at the physics involved, the torque arm on the Berg version is a bit longer, and the rubber snubbers are a little softer (read that, "quieter") than the EMPI version which uses thin, Urethane cushions.  The EMPI version pushes up against the bottom of the frame horns, while the Berg version pushes against a pair of frame brackets that are welded onto the frame horns and can be "adjusted" such that you can artificially place them a bit high and thereby apply a certain amount of pre-load to the assembly and make it seem stiffer.

 

Yeah, the EMPI version is cheaper, but the Berg is VERY well made and I figured it was worth it, especially for horsepower in excess of 140hp.  Below that level and the EMPI might be just fine.

So I finally heard back from the boys at Rancho on my transaxle.  Turns out as I suspected, the front bearing on the output shaft was....ahhhhh.......toast, but Mike (the tech) is checking the shaft, just to make sure it's OK.

 

Back when I bought it I thought I asked for a 3:88 rear but the engine revs have always been too high for me to believe that.  Mike checked and, sure enough, a 4:12 rear (no wonder it's been quick through the gears) so that'll get swapped out while he's at it.  So far, the rest of it looks fine.  He said the wear was almost non-existent on the synchros and gears - all good news (for my wallet, too).  

 

Next call is to see where my Kafer bar is at Aircooled.......

Good to hear Rancho has it under control....   Tell your investment broker to come in off the ledge....   

Soooooo........been a while.  Don't want you folks to think things aren't happening!

 

Received the transaxle back from Rancho.  Gave them the whole story of miles run and things happening over the past 16,000 miles or so.  They used the output shaft bearing I sent along as well as the seal kit I sent.  Damage and wear was minimal and I asked them to swap out the stock 4:12 R&P for a 3:88 - THAT should make a big difference.  After all that, the Rancho folks really treated me right by only charging for the new parts and minimal labor, so the whole thing came in well under $400 for a brand-new transaxle.  I'm thrilled.

 

The transaxle is now back in the car, Berg intermediate brace installed (which is an amazingly high-quality product even though the frame mounts still have to be welded in), Bugpack rear truss assembly is now installed, although THAT needed a couple of newly-fabricated frame horn brackets to get around the VW transmission saddle mount that I chose not to modify, and the new shift coupler is in.  Now I'm moving on to the clutch cable and getting to the brakes with more parts arriving tomorrow (and the buying is almost stopped).  

 

This has been one of those projects where everything you touch turns into three more things to do, but I'm knocking them off, one by one, mostly by buying a lot of new parts and getting them installed but, you know.......I sure haven't put a lot into this car since I built it so it certainly deserves some special care.

 

The engine sits, awaiting a new clutch disk and re-installation, after having a lot of stuff "touched up" on it, too.  The plan is to get everything back in by the end of the week, but we'll see how it goes.  Nothing has gone "According to Hoyle" on this effort - cold weather, bad parts, broken parts, a Kafer brace backordered for seven weeks, a few mistakes on the part of suppliers and so forth, all setting things back week-by-week, but the goal is to be ready for a local show on June 15'th, and it looks like we'll make it.

 

gn

Gordon, I can really relate to your comment about nothing going "According to Hoyle".

My mechanic did a test fit for the 901 gearbox and engine, which he's putting in as one unit.  Turns out the angle of the intake ports on my new Steve Tims stage 2 heads is slightly different than my old CB heads.  So, when he tried to install the carbs they hit the engine bay's side panels. 

I never would have thought the intake angles would be different from VW head to head.

Ended up sending the intake manifolds off to the machine shop for milling.

 

Good news about the tranny.  How often do we get something done to our cars and the bill ends up being cheaper than we expected?  

Right on the transmission! Hope the good luck abides.

Sounds great, Gordon. How well was the transaxle boxed up? I only ask because I've read on other forums where  their packing could be a little better. Do you have any modifications- 3rd and 4th gears welded, superdiff? And my apologies for not remembering- what do you have for an engine?

I originally bought this transaxle back in the mid-90's.  "Pro-Street" with all the goodies; welded 3&4'th, bunch of hardened stuff, super diff, reinforced aluminum side plate, all that Jazz.  The only changes this time around were to replace the bad bearing, check out the rest, change the R&P to a 3:88 and button it up.  They also replaced all of the fasteners and painted it so it looks like new (and it is, too!)

 

It was shipped in a semi-triple-wall corrugated box which was designed to be shipped horizontally.  Fine, but it got delivered on-end, sitting on the bell housing.  This was probably due to most of the weight being towards the bell-housing end.  Fortunately, that end had additional cardboard installed and semi-protection for the input shaft in case it was set on that end, so no harm. (and the rest of the box arrived in OK shape).  Could it be better?  Sure, but at what additional cost?  This one made it 3,000 miles OK and another one shipping 300 miles with an un-caring shipper might not do so well......who knows?  I added 28 pounds of shipping box to it when it left me, and that cost about $100 one-way to ship.

 

The engine is a 2,110 with 40mm Dells, all the usual goodies, an Engle 120 cam and a Berg extractor system (they hang down a bit in the rear, but perform well).  It's mostly set up for mid-range torque and performs pretty well up to about 6 grand but really nice between 2,500 and 4,500 rpm.

 

Spent about an hour getting my Berg shifter back in last night too no avail......Installs OK and I can find 4 gears but the reverse lock-out button isn't doing anything with the gate tab so I finally gave up and watched Nova.  I remember having trouble with this originally so just have to figure it out one more time.  OCD now, will pay off with many years of easy shifting in the future....and I'm really good at being OCD.

 

It's also amazing how nicely things go when you get the right parts.  I spent a couple of evenings trying to figure out why, after I re-assembled my rear brake drums with new wheel cylinders, the silly drums wouldn't go on.  Finally measured the dimensions of the new wheel cylinders and found them to be slightly different than the old ones.  Epiphanic moments ensued, I checked the box and found I had received cylinders for a '54-'67 beetle (with the narrower brake shoes) and mine is the later with wider shoes.  D...U...H........

Got some new cylinders in a day from Bug City (those guys are great!) and they went in in about 10 minutes per wheel - including reinstalling everything else.  I'll get to pressure bleeding them today, some time.  Right now, I'm off to do my volunteer work as a Master Gardener for the Community Harvest Project.

 

Stay tuned.  I've been taking pictures of the suspension mods but they don't show much.