Transmission Noise To BE or not To BE

Curious - is trans mounted with stock rubber mounts?  or the red poly or solid mounts which tend to transfer lots of transmission noise. Might be worth a drain and check for wear filings in gear lube.  A refill could also possibly remedy.

Sometimes gears with welded hubs can be a little noisy, and with harder mounts, as Greg mentioned, this is what you could be hearing. Or, something may be wrong. Take Greg's advice and change the tran oil and see what you find. Does it shift and run ok otherwise?

Unfortunately Rancho has had to default to almost exclusively aftermarket gears due to the lack of availability of the good ole German stuff.  I cannot tell you if your sound is "normal" but I can tell you that the gearboxes of the last few years are much louder than those made just a few years ago.  We have found that they do seem to "wear in" and quite down quite a bit, but that usually happens over the first few hundred miles...

Forgot to mention this earlier- the red polyurethane mounts (Greg mentioned them in his post) as well as being louder, don't last. I ripped a set up in my Cal Look street car in 2 or 3,000 miles. And solid mounting just makes the car too noisy and is really hard on the car; you're always having to check for things vibrating loose. Stock mounts will last many thousands of miles in all but the highest hp cars, and VW does make a harder rear cradle mount; iIrc it's a bus part so probably starts with a 211 part#. I know Gene Berg carries them.

Update,  First Acme was absolutely no help what so ever.  Fellow wouldn't even look at the car or even take a ride to offer an opinion.   Be that as it may.   I've talked to Mike at Rancho and he is the opposite end of the spectrum more then willing to help but is limited due to his location.  We've elected to do the following.  He is sending me 3 qts of the required oil and I am going to have the transmission drained and refilled.   If I find metal or not it will confirm one way or the other if I have a BIG problem.   I sent Mike a video and he can hear the noise but he can't really hear it at the level of being a live body in the car.  I understand and can accept some noise.  It's just SO loud I find it hard to think it's OK and it's clearly not getting better.  Maybe worse.   If necessary this will wait until Carlisle in the spring and then perhaps the collective wisdom and the powers that be can hold a group session over the car or an exorcism.  Mike is going to stand behind the transmission and I am not going to panic.  My concern? I didn't want to let this go and get into real trouble.  Still trying to find a shop willing to at least listen.  Mike has suggest a couple but nothing all that close.  If any one can point me in the direct of a shop or expert on these transmission that would be a help.   I can see now perhaps the reason for the words spoken "LET THE MADNESS BEGIN".  Thanks for the help to this point.   The questions concerning the types of mounts etc I can't answer.    It's just a car, not the end of the world.     excerci

My teams for louder for about a year and then blew up at Carlisle this year.  The nose bearing blew up and washed through the transmission destroying everything.

I recommend pulling it and sending it to Rancho for rebuild during the winter.

I got REALLY lucky that Carey was there and able to trailer my car back to Bremen and lucky again that he had another delivery to Detroit a couple of  weeks later.  You might not be so lucky.

Tom...could you please paraphrase your first paragraph into something meaningful in the "common" English language  ? What does...My teams for louder for about a year mean ? Sounds cute....your Avatar must be special etc....but

 

I'm trying to say hear, that if new comers or those with less knowledge are reading these posts and trying to learn, how can this help ?

 

What is it you are really trying to say, please ?

John:

 

Rancho-supplied LAT transaxle lube is really good stuff, so try that first and do what the boys at Rancho tell you.

 

Last Spring, when I was searching for someone local (New England) to rebuild my Rancho-built transaxle, I checked everyone I could find between Maine and Maryland - even checked a few Porsche shops.  Talked to over a half dozen shops and could find no one that I would trust for my rebuild.  The Porsche shops don't know VW transaxles (yes, they're a bit different) and the local VW Tranny shops have all gone away for lack of business. 

 

Ended up mounting the Transaxle to a piece of 3/4" thick plywood and getting a double-walled box from U-Haul to ship it in and sent it back to the boys at Rancho for the rebuild.  The shipping cost will be about $60 bucks each way from your neck-of-the-woods to Fullerton, CA. and then you can work out warranty support with them.

 

Let me say, though, that dealing with Rancho Transaxles was a joy - They have to be one of the best, straight-up shops I've ever had the pleasure of dealing with.

 

If you decide to go this route, a local shop can pull the engine and transaxle in under two hours - same two hours to put it all back.  That's the way I would go......

 

Hope this helps!

 

Gordon

Interesting, Gordon about you needing a Rancho rebuild. How many hours / miles /  years did you do on your Rancho before it needed a rebuild ? I know you prefer to trailer your car to Carlisle, not sure about other events. You've had this car on the road for a good number of years.

 

What symptoms became evident which prompted you to send it back for the rebuild and what needed repair ? Just trying to learn here.

 

Thanks...

Autocorrect gone bizerk.  "My teams for louder for about a year" should have read "My trans was louder for about a year."

 

No longer typing on iPhone.  During the winter of 2012/2013, I had Carey modify my heat routing to the rear bulkheads ala David Stroud.  When I picked up the car, I noticed that the trans was louder.  Carey noticed it too, but attributed it to the change in heat routing causing more noise getting into the passenger compartment.

 

I drove it through the 2013 season and then to Carlisle this year when it got REALLY loud and started jerking.

 

I didn't want to sit out the 2014 season, and Carey had another trans in stock, so decided to swap it out for a new one.  If I would have had the winter to work with, I would have had it rebuilt at Rancho like Gordon recently did. That would have been a much more cost effective approach.

 

I initially had problems with my cable operated clutch and I surmise that the grinding that ensued could have been the start of the trans failure.

 

After the first season, Carey installed a hydraulic clutch for me.

 

Car is MUCH quieter now with a new trans.

 

I know that pulling the trans seems like an extreme measure, but I would hate for you to get stranded far from home.

All good advice.  Here is how it stands.  John Steele says it's normal and I hope his is spot on.  Mike at Rancho is willing to listen to me. Mike frankly doesn't know but has seen failures.   I agree Rancho has been more then helpful..  They are ready to pay shipping both directions and rebuild the transmission if for no more reason then to put my mind at ease about.  You couldn't expect more then that.  I hate to put anyone to that much trouble without a couple knowledgeable opinions (which are not easy to get to this point in time, might change).    Mike and I discussed this at length today and he and I agreed the wise move is to drain the trans lube and to examine it.  If it's good then I will run with it.  If there are obvious problems or even some evidence of problems then the transmission is coming out of the car.   I am a reasonable fellow and this is the reasonable course of action.   I admit I am far from an expert on this.  One forum member who will remain un-named has driven the car and agrees with me that there is at least reason for concern. This is just information gathering.  The truth will out one way or the other and there isn't a person on the planet who hopes any more then I do that I AM WRONG OVER REACTING AND BEING A NUDGE.     If any one thinks I am being unreasonable tell me what you would do give my level of experience and limitations.    The engine in this car is LOUD and when you hear a grinding whining noise that's loud enough to be heard clearly over top of that engine you'd have to be pretty stupid to ignore it without doing some fact finding.  Again if I am wrong I'll be happy to admit it and sorry for making a fuss.   If I am right then lets get it fixed so that more damage isn't' done to what really is a nice little car.    

Given the circumstances, you have every right to be concerned.

Thanks for that, Tom. Did your faulty transmission ever get diagnosed to find the real fault ?

 

Again...just trying to learn here. I'm getting my Speedster rebuilt nearby with a few add on's and can ill afford long distance fault finding from the West Coast of the USA to just North of New York State. This recent talk of Rancho having "recalls" scares me as all I've heard on this list is that  Rancho is el Primo .

 

My stock trany's working fine as is...maybe I shoud pay someone to make my tach work @ 84% of actual rpm and let'er go ?

 

Any other recommends for HD / High ratio transmission builders welcome.  Thanks

 

 

David,

 

If I were doing it again, I'd get a 915.

 

If I were doing a VW transaxle again, I'd just go with stock gears and a 3.44:1 R/P-- especially given that your going to go with a Subaru powerplant (plenty of torque to pull it).

 

I had Racnho do mine twice, and Blackline one more. I'm ever in search of the perfect gearing.

My ear say's "noise is wear" and what I've heard it needs to be addressed now rather than later when it would dip into your pockets.  ~Alan

Thanks for that, Stan. My inclination is straight to the 3:44 given the torque curve shown above. I will be re-installing my 2.2 L Soob engine.

 

What is a 915 ? And it's suitability to a VW pan frame / Soob engine ?

 

Did Rancho and Blackline do it multiple times due to failure or searching for more

options ?

 

Thanks

 

 

I *think* a 915 is a 911 transmission. I maybe wrong.

 

Ted

Mine is loud on deceleration, especially with the top up. It became even louder  when it was rebuilt into a Berg 5 speed. The nose cone is really tight against the frame, even with modifications. The addition of a Berg mid-mount didn't help as all vibration resonates into the rear deck of the cockpit which, in turn, becomes audible. I installed soundproofing on the rear deck and it made a noticeable difference. 

I believe Eddy told me his coupe is noisy as well so hopefully he'll check in on this thread. It's  just the way John builds them, I guess. I know my tranny's good, though, as itvwas rebuilt by a very reputable shop.

Ted,

 

You are correct.  Used in 1972-1986, 911's.  I had an '84  911. Transmission was solid and strong.  A very long throw by today's standards. The next series G50 was an improvement.

 

Art

915 is the '72 up 911 trans.  (901 is the earlier dog-legged shift pattern trans used in 66-71 911/912 and kind of the 914).  It takes cutting of frame horns and where shifter enters car PLUS need new 5 speed shifter  suspect cost is about same as the SubaruGears reversed R&P with a Subbie 5 speed.  Neither is cheap. 

A while back, a guy posted one for sale on here or the samba for like $1200.00.

 

Ted

A little like the fellow who says he has chest pain.   Well how bad does it hurt?    (How much noise is it actually making?) How bad does it have to hurt to be concerned? Who knows really.  Well enough to justify a little lab work and a urine sample for sure. When I get the lab tests back I'll hopefully tell you the good news.    Even the Drs are wrong boys so I don't feel badly that I am bitchin about the noise.  No Dr worth his pay is going to say "ignore it, it will get better" even though there is a reasonable chance that it will.   If I don't have a problem no one will be happier. I understand that to justify removing this transmission we have to have some supporting evidence.   That evidence will be the out come of the oil change, followed with perhaps a couple KNOWLEDGEABLE opinions.  I will also be more then willing to give it some additional time (depending on the oil change findings).  No undies in a bunch one way or the other on this and no displeasure with any one involved.   All I want is for the Dr to listen when I say "it hurts" and to follow thru.   I believe that's what is happening fellows.  That's what should happen and if everyone does the "right thing" I've got no bitch.    Simple isn't it?       

David-

 

There was never anything wrong with any iteration of my VW transaxles. I've just been on a never-ending quest for perfect gearing. What I've got right now is close enough, but I could've saved a lot of money just going with a standard VW Beetle gear-set and a 3.44:1 R/P.

 

Rancho builds a perfectly fine box, but obviously they cannot put in the time and care a smaller "boutique" builder can, which is why I let Blackline do it the last time. I will go on record as saying that Weddle or Erco gear-sets are every bit as nice (or nicer) than VW gears... and only about 10x the money. My 3rd and 4th gears cost as much as an entire gear-box from Rancho. The hobby is gettting expensive for the good stuff.

 

A custom-geared VW box is big money, and a 915 is even bigger (and I wouldn't do it without a Wevo shifter... which is another $750+).

 

It starts to make a Mustang or Camaro look pretty cheap.

No argument there brother.   I expected some of this going in.    Not worth it really but then it is isn't it?     Any one can own a Mustang or a Camaro or a Miata (and I've had two out of the three)  this little Coupe is special in spite of it all.    Maybe it's becoming clear why James Dean called his car affectionately "the little bastard"     Always wondered about that.    Oh well.   No one dragged me in kicking and screaming and if it's gets too bad I know where the door is.    

David asked: "Interesting, Gordon about you needing a Rancho rebuild. How many hours / miles /  years did you do on your Rancho before it needed a rebuild ? I know you prefer to trailer your car to Carlisle, not sure about other events. You've had this car on the road for a good number of years.

 

What symptoms became evident which prompted you to send it back for the rebuild and what needed repair ? Just trying to learn here."

 

This was documented elsewhere on this forum, but here's the nutshell version:

 

My engine is a 2,110 producing over 150 ft. lbs. of torque in the mid-range.  Well within the capabilities of a Rancho Pro Street transaxle.  

 

My transaxle sat for several years after I bought it, buttoned up but with no oil, before I got around to using it.  I started getting 3'rd gear whine (variable pitch with speed) around the 5,000 mile mark, so I drained the Kendall 90 wt hypoid oil in there (it had a slight rainbow shimmer in a bowl in sunlight) and filled it with high quality synthetic oil.  The whine got louder.  The synthetic oil was drained and replaced with Kendall 90 Hypoid again.  The whine persisted, but never got worse from there.

 

Along with the whine, over time I got more and more 2'nd and 3'rd gear vibration, which could be felt in the shifter and the butt.  I put up with this getting progressively worse for another 16,000 miles, then pulled the transaxle at around 20+K miles.  In the meantime, I had decided to replace the weakest link in that gearbox, the nose bearing of the output shaft, and bought a new one locally by pulling the old one (I had to make a special puller to get it out) and then got a new one to the dimensions of the old one.  The old one came from Taiwan (stamped on the shell), and the new one was either a FAG or SKA, I can't remember, but whatever it was, it was made in Sweden.  After that, I found that there was another bearing, deep inside, that was suspect, too, so I decided to send the transaxle back to Rancho for a rebuild - sent the bearing and a full gasket set I had bought, too, and they used both in the rebuild.

 

As detailed in my other post, Rancho did the rebuild, plus they installed a 3:88 ring and pinion for me (my request) and only charged me for the parts for the 3:88.  In the end, it cost me more for shipping than for the rebuild - a pretty good deal in anyone's book.

 

Remember, too, that I am now running Urethane transmission mounts, a Kafer Brace, PLUS a Berg mid-section transaxle mount so I expected a bit more noise in the cockpit and that's what I got.  Not horrible, hardly noticeable unless you listen for it and then mostly on mild deceleration (as mentioned elsewhere above) which indicates the same bearings inside of the nosecone PLUS having a cradle mount bolted right at the mid-section so there's no way NOT to get more noise with all that.  Given that, and the fact that it is a very slight noise, I'm happy with the final result.

 

Given the time of year, if I were John I would try the LAT lube first, and then have someone else drive the car who's familiar with these cars and get his/her opinion on whether to live with it or not.  Different lubes can make a big difference in nose levels.  

 

Epilog:  Ever since I got this transaxle on the road around year 2000, the car has had a shudder starting around 65mph.  I tried LOTS of stuff to find the cause and eliminate it, to no avail.  When I got the rebuilt transaxle in (with that new ring and pinion) I have been unable to detect the old shudder at any speed.  Who knew?

WEVO 911 short shifter in my IM as Stan mentioned.  My 911 Trans was from a later Carrera. They are super expensive but I absolutely love it. 

Everybody talks about a G50, but have you ever seen the size of one? A 915 with a Wevo is pretty close to perfect, and will handle anything we are going to throw at it.

Marty...what parts are needed to mate a Subaru engine to a 911 tranny ? Is your complete rear end...axles...suspension from the 911 ? thanks.

 

For those experiencing the transaxle being noisier on deceleration- As the Beetle transaxle was originally engineered to deal with about 50hp in a light car, it is incapable of handling the forces of deceleration when coupled with engines of substantially more power. The car we put it in is about the same weight, but most of us are using way more power than originally intended.

 

And I agree with Stan- a G50 is way overkill (and very heavy) for most of these cars. Even a 915 is tough to shoehorn in a car with an original VW torsion assembly and frame horns, although it is a better choice than even a 901.

With all this talking about noise, rebuilds, downtime etc reminds me of what Don Henley said...." the more I know, the less I understand" . 

 

I've really gotta start thinking about keeping my old stock geared tranny, keep my existing bux down El Cheapo $$$ Soob and just fix the car up and drive another 30 K miles or so without trying to prove any point to anyone...especially to myself !

 

I'll have little patina left when the fixup's done tho' and have committed to some new carpets and relocation of the heater with real defrost. The tow truck comes tomorrow.... Any yes, Carl...thanks to you, the hardtop will be a nice addition.

You might want to check to see if there is DynaMax sound absorbing (type) material on the rear firewall area under the carpet.  I can see how the trans and engine would transmit noise through the fiberglass to the interior.  Not sure if it's done standard by the builder but its well worth the time and $80 - its something you can do yourself in a could hours.

I had my Berg 5 built at a little "boutique"shop. It's called Gary Berg Engineering.

He's real small and works alone right next door to his brother Clyde. When I decide to have my engine built, that's who's going to do it...

This thread is getting a little off topic.  That's OK.  However at this point I'd like to hear suggestions of repair shops in my Pa, NJ and MD area.  I live close to Harrisburg and visit the Phila area frequently.   

 

Acme was suggested but they had NO interesting in helping me at all.   Didn't even want to look at the car.   Hard for me to understand some one being that disinterested.  Maybe a bad day or he just didn't like the looks of me.    

John,

 

One thing you're going to have to get used to around here - thread drift.

 

Eventually someone will answer your question. 

 

Welcome aboard,
Ted

Oh I understand about the thread drift.  I am as guilty as the rest on that.   

 

Pretty much nearly every member on the site...

Dr. John.

I posted this in a different thread a few days ago.  He isn't in your area, but people ship transmissions to him from all over.

 

I have never been involved nor guilty of thread drift - speaking of, we were at a tequilla tasting in Puerto Vallarta yesterday and a donkey bit Andie's finger.