Transmission Noise To BE or not To BE

Some "gear" oils are darker in color.....   These usually have a slight sulpher smell...  They should NOT be used in the VW aluminum case....   When combined with any moisture they form sulphuric acid which can attack the case....   Unless you are running a limited slip differential, a good multi weight gear oil ( 80 / 90 w. or so )

will work well....

TRP....  Street Pro boxes have super diffs, welded 3 & 4th gears, hardened keys, steel shift forks, heavy duty side cover, and are only  marginally  noisier than a stock unit.

Just my .02.... 

The noise is there in second,third and forth gears. Noticed more when decelerating (letting off the gas).   Alan I did drain it thru the tee shirt and I found no evidence of any particles.  The tee shirt was stained brown some but I can't say that I found anything that I would consider diagnostic.   I've saved it and will get it analyzed and of course you are welcome to look at it (I'd like you to).   Looks like beef gravy.   Not too good for Grandma's turkey  dinner.  I've sent this to Mike at Rancho and I am willing to run it for a while.   Not as concerned as I was but also not entirely willing to say it's completely OK.    I was encouraged when I noticed it was entirely quiet when it was cold.   Maybe just drive it on sub zero morning for less then ten mile.   Gotta be a solution some how.   Thanks everyone appreciate the tolerance of a newbie 

John:  Interestingly enough, we're doing the same thing in parallel.

I have a Rancho Pro-Street that they just rebuilt late last Spring.

I, too, have noticed more noise from the gearbox as I've gone through the break-in cycle.

I'm also at the point when the oil I put in when I got it back should be changed for the steady-state stuff.

I have been running LAT 80-90 which I got from Rancho as I figured "They aughta know what to put in it".

Now, a little history:  Before the rebuild, maybe 14,000 miles ago, it started making a little noise, so I drained the oil and replaced it with a full synthetic 90 wt oil recommended for Porsche transaxles.  The noise got worse, so that was drained and replaced with Valvoline 90wt Hypoid oil.  The noise got only a little bit better, but never got any worse, even though the vibrations increased as a main Bearing failed over time.

So just yesterday, I drained the LAT oil I got from Rancho - it came out surprisingly dark, too, which I wondered about, but nothing chunk-like was attached to the drain plug magnet so I moved on.

I re-filled it with Valvoline 90-110wt Hypoid oil, because the original VW specs call for a 90 wt Hypoid lube and I do almost all of my driving in the summer so I ran thicker, knowing full well that it probably will shift like sludge below 40F.

So that's were I am.  At 21F right now I'm not about to go galavanting around to test it......you'll just have to wait, but I haven't yet winterized the fuel system so I'll be driving it in the next week or so and can report back.

Personally, I'm not all that impressed with the LAT lube. It seemed a bit thin for the action I expected with a 90 wt lube and I'm still wondering about the drain color after about 1,000 miles but then I've always had great luck with Valvoline Hypoid lubes and am hoping for some improvement to report.  We'll see.......

in the meantime, I have an extra quart of the LAT stuff, never used, and I'll check it out to see what color it is out of the bottle and report back.

gn

Leon,  I am using what Rancho provided me with.   Yes there is a slight sulpher smell.  Typical of gear oil.   Problem is what is normal with respect to the sound?  That is the challenge.  It's loud enough that my wife noticed it while riding in the car and she's not one to pick up on subtle car noises trust me.  Geno Boyd and others who have ridden in the car say it's normal.  John Steele insists that it's normal and correctly has stated that his experience counts for more the others. I'll go along with that as long as Rancho agrees.   I am going to give it the benefit of the doubt at this point in time.  Really what other options are there for me?  I am not going to have the transmission pulled until and if there is more SOLID evidence.  Maybe it will get better and maybe it will get worse.   I am on record with the various powers that be. 

I am listening to all opinions and suggestions and keeping my mind open.  I appreciate the help. 

John:

Just did a color compare on oils.

The following picture shows:

The LAT 80-90 (it appears to be synthetic) from Rancho in the top cup, and

Valvoline 90-100 in the lower cup.

As you can see, the LAT is significantly darker (and quite Green) than the Valvoline stuff.  It's no wonder it looks darker when drained - it was darker going in, too!

At the same shop temperature of about 32 degrees, the LAT is significantly thinner and runs out of the cup back into the bottle such that it reaches the lip of the cup, after tipping, in about three seconds.  Doing the same cup tip for the Valvoline and it took over ten seconds to reach the cup lip (I gave up waiting, even after heating it up).

In my experience, I would personally run the LAT stuff as a break-in oil, and then change to the thicker Valvoline as a steady-state oil to be closer to what VW recommends.

So.....If your gearbox makes significantly less noise when cold (as a whole lot of gearboxes do, both VW and American) then you might notice a decrease in noise in general if you run slightly heavier oil - this has been a common cure for noisy gearboxes for decades, all over the world.  It won't hurt anything to do so, other than shifting stiffer and slower when the outside temp is below 40F, but I see that as a small price to pay for an overall quieter gearbox.  Just remember that VW and Porsche both recommend a hypoid-type of oil for their gearboxes.

As for your quote on John Steele that he "correctly has stated that his experience counts for more the others"........

Well, John has demonstrated in the past that he can put together a bunch of vendor-supplied sub-assemblies into a product that he sells, but by no means does that give him more experience in those sub-assemblies than the people who produce them.  I would listen more carefully to the folks at Rancho far more than I would to Steele about perceived issues with a Rancho gearbox.  Rancho should know, not necessarily John.  In fact, they've already stated that they will stand behind their product and I believe that having them look at, and rebuild as necessary under their warranty, to certainly be the best course of action for you - at the very least to give you peace of mind in the future.

Having said that, neither John, nor me, nor Alan Merklin really matter in this, other than giving opinions.  The only one who really matters is YOU.  If YOU think the gearbox is loud, then it's loud and you will feel a lot better about it after you have it looked at by those who built it.  

The same goes for me.  I think mine is making more noise than I think it should, under the circumstances, and am relying on my past experience to get it to where I want it.

Gordon,   Can't argue with a thing you've said.   I ran all of this past Mike at Rancho.  I am sure he will get back to me.  

As to the color of the drained oil.  It was at least as dark as the top sample you've indicated as being the LAT oil.  Probably darker.   I've saved it and maybe I can get a picture up loaded this evening.    

Rancho will treat me right I am confident of that.  

I don't want any one to take any of this personally.   I am not picking sides.  No winners or losers on this.   Opinions we all have them.  Some of opinions based upon more experience certainly worth more then others.  Having said that even the experts are on occasion wrong and because it's entirely impossible to get all the evidence TO the experts I am forced to take what I think is a reasonable course of action.   

Unless Rancho says differently I am going to put at least  another 1000 miles on it and see.  If in the mean time the thing blows up we'll know and if it gets quieter and settles in we'll know as well.   I am not betting one way or the other.  I think I am doing what most reasonable people would do.   NOW if I was a mechanic and could easily drop the trans then perhaps I'd do differently.    Not sure.   

John, that's about the best course of action I can think of, too.  

Drive it.  See what'cha think after another 1K-2K miles and then make a decision on what to do next.  We can collaborate from time to time with respective results, if for no other reason than to share info - just drop an email to me or dialog me on here.

Like you, I am not trying to throw any stones here, just trying to help.  Just wish the weather didn't turn so cold so soon.........

All the best,  gn

Rancho wants the transmission back.    I am resisting that because it's not like returning a pair of shoes that don't fit. 

I am a big boy and I have to make the call.   My decision is to drive it a while and see what happens.   I don't see what harm can be done.   I've ask Mike again what he thinks about going to a heavier gear oil. ( I see they make a 75/140 synthetic )    I will not do that without his approval but wouldn't that be nice if it's all it took to have me SHUT THE HECK UP.    Gotta keep smiling.      

I would re-think using an alternate oil that may cause a warranty issue. You may have to use Rancho's gear oil or make sure they don't have a problem using a non approved gear oil for fear of voiding the warranty. Just a consideration.

Gary

Interesting point you made earlier, Gordon. How many miles have you put on your car since you had Rancho do your rebuild last spring till now when you make the comments about noise and your oil change ? I'm still trying to figure out what's the best course to follow.

John, disregard my post. I re-read your response and you did say you were going to check to make sure it was ok to try an alternate gear oil. Sorry for jumping the gun.

Gary

David:  I have about 1,000 miles since the rebuild.  The noise is slight, mostly on coasting or mild deceleration in 3'rd and 4'th.  I was on the fence about it for a while because I also now have a set of much stiffer Urethane transaxle mounts, a transaxle intermediate mount and a Kafer truss brace, all of which will transmit more transaxle noise to the cockpit just because everything is more mechanically linked together.

Still, I was planning on changing the oil at 1,000 miles just because I always do after it's broken in a bit, so here we are.  A little too cold today to take it out (and it's up on stands so I can get to the pan under the seats) so I'll take it out as soon as things warm up a bit.  It's always fun to see the faces of other drivers when we go tearing around in the cold with the top up.

My Rancho has had a bit of noise in it since day one, but it hasn't gotten worse over nearly 50,000 miles.  It may well be the most solid part of the car.

As I said earlier (I think on the 1st page), there will always be more noise on deceleration when coupled with a more powerful engine and more robust driving; the transaxle was designed to handle the forces created in these conditions with a stock engine but (and let's see if I remember this correctly) can't be beefed for this without a major redesign.

I was just thinking......When Chris and I spot at the Rolex, you can easily hear the transaxle whine in the Porsche GT-3 in our headphones when the driver is talking to us.  All of us can hear it when the sports coverage goes to a "Cockpit Cam", too - you'll hear the transaxle wind up and down with speed.  It's loud.

Thinking about that makes me want to ignore whatever little noise I seem to be getting.......

That is because no one can afford  to fix it...

Gordon- The gears could be cut for strength, and as such will be somewhat noisier.

After several weeks of discussion back and forth with about six or seven people I've decided that the best thing to do is just trust that this transmission is not going to be a problem.  

If it turns out to be then I'll have it fixed.  I understand better what's involved and the fact that there was no real evidence of trouble in the drained gear oil make me feel more confident.  

I apologize for jumping to wrong conclusions.  I am going to make a plea for understanding. Given the circumstances and limited information I think the "average" guy would have assumed the same. 

I thank all of you for the introductory hand holding over this.    Heckman

I think that you came to the same conclusions that most of us would, given the same info.

Welcome to the Maddening World of 356 Replica ownership.  

The vast array of opinions, freely offered, comes along with it!

Check this VW changes over the years:

In 1970 - New 3rd, 4th gears with finer teeth (reduced noise) added late 70.

1972 - Modified 3rd and 4th synchro rings to reduce noise. 

1973 - Softer transmission mounting. 

Link http://www.vw-resource.com/years.html

I don't see the 3.88 R&P which was added around 1973 listed though.  You can determine year of your trans core by looking its code # (AR-AU basically) up here:

http://www.midsouthvw.com/Tech...ip_TransaxleCode.htm

Unless your trans has all new parts (which is unlikely) your going have some slight noise. Some times it is do to the pattern or wear of the ring and pinion. The other area is your gear stack. Worn stock third and fourth can make noise but also new gears do to. Depending on the brand of replacement gears and the type of gear (brands such as gem, weddle,berg, Erco & whether is a sportsman gear or race gear) They can generate audible sounds. Different brand of side plates can do transmit the sound to be louder (crown steel plates vs alum side plates). Your trans mounts? Berg mount, straps over the trans all come into play. your shifter coupler can transmit it into the drivers area. Use a stock one, those red urethane ones are junk. 

the noise you hear on deceleration is the ring gear pattern Most likely. I wouldn't worry about it. 

One last note, if you have a swing axle with a super diff and you get a thumping like noise after a long drive at cruising speed or when you back off the throttle suddenly your fulcrum plates or the axle is worn. This is do to the super diffs  restrict the oil going to them when driving for long periods at 70 mph. That's why we don't recommend super duffs for speedster owners.

the bottom line is, this is not your fathers Oldsmobile! 

Just drive it!

LOL  Not my fathers Oldsmobile?   He drove a SAAB  2 stroke and a 544 Volvo 1965 (which is still on the road 40 years after his passing)  The Volvo is in the hands of a collector.  It's road worthy but not restored.  I drove it a year or two ago after tracking it down.   This Little Coupe is way nicer then the old Volvo but well it should be for the $$$$.   My Dad would have loved my cars.   He was a car guy too but had no money to play.   I am fortunate and know that.  

Driving it???  Had it out to day.  Plan on doing that.  My little dog likes to ride over the engine behind the seats.  He's a good fit and he doesn't mind the engine noise at all.  Good enough for him good enough for me.  

John, what kind of dog do you have?

Long-haired breeds are much better at damping transmission whine. You might consider adding a few wiener dogs around your dog to fill in the gaps.

Much cheaper than a tranny rebuild.

Wiener dogs are fine, but don't let this Wiener site behind you....

Whoa! What's  this about super diffs restricting oil?

Wiener Dogs it is. Here is my little fellow.   Retired show dog.  He's my best buddy.  5 years old got him from a breeder who wanted to down size her kennel.   What other dog would you even consider for this car?  I think we're on to something here.   Transmission noise?   Couple more wiener dogs and maybe a CAT in the mix.  Who's going to notice or give a darn.   There is a solution to every problem if you are willing to think outside the box.   His dog absolutely is a car guy too.   He LOVES to pee on tires.  Every chance he gets and he especially like to hit the ones with fresh shine on them.   Let him out the door and he immediately heads for a tire.  Maybe he's trying to tell me something.  Or some one else  

Beautiful doxie, John.  I have two: Molly (8 yrs) and Charlie (4 yrs).  I had my best bud Sammy for 17+ years before he crossed the rainbow bridge.  here are a couple of pics.  The first is Charlie and his UT rally monkey and the second is both of them a couple of years back.

My wife and I have had 7 of them over the years.   All as different as they could be.  First one was the smartest dog I've come across but STUBBORN.  I've learned to not buy puppies.  This little miniature long hair is just so sweet.  He'll go to anyone and is happy just being close to you.   Doesn't bark.   He's a retired show dog and has been used in breeding.  We've always had the long hairs.  Just personal preference.   Have you seen the newest, the cream colored long hairs?  I can't get my mind around that but apparently that and the dapples is where it's at in dachshund land today.   I am a traditionalist I like the reds and blacks and tans.  My dogs would do exactly what yours are doing lay right on top of each other.  We have a black and tan female who is 12 years old.  She is my wife's dog and wants nothing to do with me.  That's why I got Foxee.  He likes everyone on but I'm his main squeeze.   Dachshunds you like'm or you don't.    Pretty much like Porsche Replica's to prevent shameless thread drift. (although we've about killed the transmission discussion anyways) 

What transmission discussion?

We were at the vet's, just the other day (we seem to be there a lot lately) and a young lady arrives carrying a 12-week-old, long haired Dachshund puppy - the kind of dog that makes your heart melt.  Loveable, curious, well-mannered and gorgeous with that beautiful Sable coloring.  She was an instant hit in the waiting room.

Then, a few minutes later a woman arrives with a 4-month-old, Black, Scottish Terrier, equally lovable and well-mannered.  The two of them were introduced in the waiting room along with our two Jacks for a veritable small-dog love-fest.  What a bunch of characters!!

60F here in Massachusetts, today, perfect to take Pearl out and see if anything changed.  Remember that I've been working on a new pair of seats lately and have the passenger seat out of the car - the same as it was the lest time I drove it.

So before I took off on my ride I had to pick up the mess I left in the car, as well as move the carpet and rubber pad for the passenger side off of the tonneau and over to the bench.  

As I was moving them, the light dawned:    When I was driving the last time, the passenger seat, the carpet and 1/2" rubber pad under it, and the carpet and pad across the back were all out so I could make sure the new seat fit properly.   That's all nice, but it also lets a lot more of the engine/transaxle noise into the cockpit.

So I took off this time, after replacing the LAT 80-90wt transaxle oil with Valvoline 90-110wt Hypoid oil a week or so ago.  It shifted a bit stiffly for the first 5 minutes and then settled in and shifted about as normal as I can remember.  There is no discernible noise in 4'th gear.  Maybe a whisper of the usual gear-slap when coasting or mildly decelerating, but you have to really listen for it.

In 3'rd gear, there is a little more of the same, scratchy noise on mild deceleration, and almost exactly the same amount of noise, under the same run conditions, as I heard with the LAT lube.  My conclusion is that moving from the LAT to the slightly heavier Valvoline in this instance didn't change anything.

So I got home and grabbed a big, thick, quilted moving blanket expropriated from one of our moves and threw it in to cover the passenger seat area, with a big flap (3" thick or so) up in the back to replace all of the carpet, padding and seat that was missing and took off again.  Amazingly, my old Pearl was back, nice and quiet most of the time with a whisper of scratchiness when decelerating in 3'rd, just like I remember it always being.

The moral of the story:  Don't try to compare apples and oranges and expect to get a Nectarine.

If you're using LAT transaxle lube, it's good stuff.  Maybe a little thin for us Old Skool guys used to messing with American iron, but good stuff just the same.

There are other alternatives. Brad Penn Classic gear designed for older four speed Muncie, Borg Warner design trans and swing axle. 

I use it and sell this product and have had no complaints.

All this talk of trans oil makes me worry about my new trans before it's even had a drop of oil in it! Life was simpler when I didn't care.

I picked up some Valvoline 80-90 Hypoid. We'll see how it does.  

Ted, the Valvoline is fine; it'll more than do the trick, and has been in how many million standard transmissions and transaxles for how many years? Only if you drive in colder weather do you need to even consider whether to use anything fancy (and of course, more expensive).

My 1994, 300,000 km. 4Runner has a 5 speed, regular dino oil in the trans and is a bear to shift when cold at this time of year. Last time work was done to it I asked the mechanic to change the trans oil to synthetic. When I picked it up and asked as I didn't see trans oil on the bill he said that it was clean and didn't need changing; I was pissed because that wasn't the point at all! ]

PS- Drive the thing, and any time you start worrying about it, come home, re-read Gordon's last post above and then kick yourself for wasting a good driving moment. I'll bet it only happens once... 

Yeah, and don't forget - I have a freshly rebuilt transaxle from a shop I truly trust and admire.  

There was nothing wrong with it, but after 1,000 miles it was time to drain the lube, clean the drain plug and put in new lube "for the long haul".  

I used what my Dad used on his fleet of school buses when I was a kid, and what I've been using for decades in a bunch of different vehicles, Valvoline.  Far easier for me to get locally (LAT simply is not available here, other than online) even though I am convinced that LAT lube is really good stuff, too, as well as the Brad Penn lube and several others that are popular with the hot rod and racing guys.  Just ask around your area And see what others are running.

Ted, the Valvoline will be just fine.  It was about 45F when I left and it was a bit stiff, but warmed right up and was silky-smooth after that.  I like it.

gordon

Well we're not exactly having sports car driving weather here in Central Pa.  Thought I might ask for reference and education what COULD be used in place of this Rancho transmission?   What options are there for a "better" transmission to be mated to these higher HP engines?   I've decided that this trans is probably OK but it is a weak point in the overall quality of the car or it is at least in my personal evaluation as a new owner it is.    What options are there if any just for the sake of discussion? And is there a shift mechanism which would work a bit better.  I can manage fine with what is in there but it's certainly not up to the standards of todays shifters.   Things to think about until spring  

Now you're getting the full touch of the MADNESS!  Do a search here for hours of reading on shifters.  Search CSP, Vintage Speed, and Gene Berg shifters. THey eliminate the slop and play -- and any extra $ in wallet.

Recall several rides with Phil (Fear the Yorkie) at recent Carlile event.  He has a VW Jetta 1.8L and was saying the VW T1 was weak link in his IM.  VW enthusiasts have used early Porsche 4 (901) and 5 speeds (901 and 915) trans.  They aren't a direct bolt in (and of course take different shifter and linkage) but they easily handle up to 500 hp or so.  Of course you could use a 5 rib 72 up VW bus trans with regearing to take extra stress.  Axles/CVCs too could be VW T2, Porsche 930 or even 914.  With a Subbie engine you could also fairly "easily" but not cheaply use a Subaru 5 speed transmission with the SubaruGears reversed R&P.  Gene Berg even makes a modified VW T1 5 speed - but suspect it isn't designed for 300 hp.  There's lots of costly options. Again lots of reading on topic here using Search feature.

John - it's a slippery slope. my friend! 

My previous VS was a 1995 build. Daily driver for me (SoCal), 1835cc, small Kadron carbs, stock trans other than 3:88 freeway flyer. I owned and drove that bad boy for 15 years and logged (trouble-free) 100,000 miles on it.

Get in, turn the key, put into gear, drive anywhere without reservation or worry! 15 years & 100,000 miles of driving without angst over oil brand, head temps, fickle carbs, after-market shifters, etc..

I took delivery of my new (stock) VS in late August. In the 3 months since, I've logged 4,915 care-free miles!

I'm just saying…..

I like your style Jim.  After I got my Speedster I put in my must have stereo, fixed the lights, and replaced some worn out trim pieces.  I do intend to upgrade the heating system by moving the air tubes off the frame and I am fabricating some stainless steel brackets to install under the rear engine grill so I can add some superbright LEDs for a third brake light.

I'm not doing anything to the motor or trans.  I want a reliable car that I can drive whenever I get the chance.  The more the motor/trans gets tweaked the less reliable I find them to be.

The day after Thanksgiving it was 72 degrees in Fresno.  I took it out to run some errands and enjoyed the weather.  Not so much today, it's raining right now and it's supposed to keep raining the rest of the week possibly.

Yeah, I find myself doing that a lot, too.