Transmission rebuild

Good on ya, Danny! I like how you tackled the pinion nut. Since parts are getting harder to find all the time, it might be a good idea to hoard an extra set of bearings (and maybe see what you can find for brass syncro rings?) away for next time before they're not available at all...Al

Danny

You've got made skills.  Just curious what are your ratios?  Do you run a LSD?

My first spyder with a 2109 ran a 3.88 with standard gearing and no LSD.  I thought it was great for track and scooting around town.  When I did the suby spyder I wanted a LSD with a 3.44 R&P.  I was told that I could not run a LSD with a 3.44 so I got a 3.88 with standard gearing and the LSD.  175hp DOHC suby.  Crazy quick but I always thought that with all that power I could use higher gearing.

Phil, I'm running an open Superdiff. You can't run a Torsen-type torque-sensing(Quaife) diff with the 3.44. With a 3.88, you can. I believe you can run a ZF limited slip with the 3.44 but not 100% sure. ZFs are rare, expensive, and at this stage usually worn out.

My gearing is stock, as follows:

1st-3.80   10/38

2nd-2.06  17/35

3rd-1.26   23/29 

4th-0.89   27/24

R and P-3.44:1

Final drive ratio in 4th-3.07

I counted all the teeth, so 100% sure of my gearing.

Thanks Al. Synchros are actually still available, as are most of the bearings. You can still get FAG of SKF bearings. I'm staying away from Chinese and getting either German or Brazilian. I wasn't planning on buying spares at this time though, but that is a good point.

Danny.  Funny the first spyder without the LSD was actually more fun.  One tire spinning, smoke, commotion and crazy oversteer.  But the car handled so well it was always easy to just reel in the back end with a bit of throttle.  However the spyder with the LSD was definitely faster out of a corner.  Not as much fun, requiring greater concentration but for sure faster.  With the LSD adhesion was much greater allowing higher speeds through corners up to a point.  And when you reach that point, watch out, sideways. 

Danny:

Don't know if you've already bought your bearings, but if not you might consider getting them from Eastern Industrial Automation.  They have offices in Connecticut (S. Windsor and Milford) and will spec-match the dimensions and make-up of whatever you bring in to them.  

German-quality bearings are getting harder to come by (even some Fafnir "German" bearings can come from China these days) but EIA can get much better quality than what we often find from our usual VW sources at very competitive pricing.

Here's their web site for locations:

http://easternia.com/locations.aspx

BTW, I did the cost trade-off analysis of rebuilding mine or having Rancho do it and came up with about the same costs as you but didn't want to go through the effort of building up a set of tools.  Now, if I were to find an old VW place going out of business with a full set of VW tranny tools, THAT would be wicked cool......

I'm probably going to get them from Weddle Industries, well known in VW sand and drag circles. They sell stuff for VW,Mendeola, Subaru, Albins, PBS, Honda, and Mitsubishi. They sell race and sportsman stuff. Don't think I can get much better than that Gordon, but thanks for the link. I'll check them out for sure.

I happen to have a couple contacts and one of them has a shift fork jig, which is easily made from an old trans case. Other than a press and the tools I made, I don't need anything else. Since I'm only changing bearings, and all the shafts, gears, and case parts stay the same, I won't need to adjust the backlash or pinion depth, as long as I put all the shims where they were.

I was going to send it out but decided against it as I really like to learn and do it myself. I probably should have sent it out, but who doesn't like new tools? And like I said before, I'll know exactly what is in there. And to quote the old commercial, "I always wanted to fix a transmission!"

Danny,  Best o'luck, MGM.  If anybody can do this you (and your vest pocket experts hereabouts) can.  For all the trouble to R&R everything, I'd sure be looking to renew any/all parts that take wear.  I'll take your word that the gears themselves are in good shape, although how you tell that, I have no idea.  They could look pristine, but still be worn down a smidge.  If I were you, I'd be doing a lot of talking to fellows who do this for a living.  And the synchros: here's another component that is a wear item, and I know how you shift.  My experience is #2 is the one to go.  Again, how you tell if such a thing is worn or not, I can't say, but according to your own inspection, the whole kit and caboodle was being sloshed around w/ small metal bits in the oil for a time.  You know how it goes:  Well, while I'm at it . . .

How come you can't use the Quaife and the 3.44 together?

The 3.44 pinion interferes with the diff housing.

edit: simplified and clarified

You can. I am.

... and you're right-- they're stupid expensive. I looked for over a year, and jumped on the first one I found for less than $1500. FWIW, there's a guy on the Samba manufacturing and selling clutch packs for the ZF. I didn't find out about him until I had already had the box rebuilt and set up.

I'm not sure if this is useful but I cut holes in the side of an old trans case where the adjustments for the shift rails are. I stacked my gear set in that case to adjust them , then re-installed them inthe case I wanted to use. I had measured a few cases and found them to vary only a few thousands so that little difference didn't matter when I adjusted everything.....Bruce

Good on ya, Danny. Impressive.

"I watched a guy fix a transmission once."

Yeah Bruce, lots of people do that. I have a friend a few miles away that has the factory jig for the forks. So I'll do that. Thanks.

Stan, if I ever feel the need to spend the cash I will search for a ZF. But for now I'll just rebuild what I have. 

I never really knew how transmissions work at all. But so far, I've figured a few things out. The 4 gears are in constant mesh. It's just that the sliders that sit between 1 and 2, and 3 and 4 are not engaged. Reverse gets it's own slider and uses an additional gear on the differential housing side of the gearbox to change the direction of the final drive. So anyway, the gears are all in constant mesh. When you go to select a gear, the slider(pushed/pulled by the fork) first engages the brass synchronizer ring.

So now the synchronizer is engaged with the slider. As the synchro is pushed towards the gear, it starts to grab the gear. It does this as it is cone shaped on it's inner bore, and it uses friction to grab the cone-shaped part of the gear. This speeds the gear up and allows the dogs to engage the slider. Now that the slider and gear are going the same speed, the fork/slider engages all the way and you are in gear. So, as long as the teeth on everything are sharp and not worn, and still pentagonal(think Chrysler emblem), the only worry is stack height. That ensures that the cones are not worn. New spec is 0.043", wear limit is 0.026". In the pic I have 0.043", so the synchro is as new. They are all in this shape, Mr. Frazer.

Good on ya, Danny ! Show us lots of pics now so you won't have to do a tutorial at Carlisle....

Jes*s  H. Chr*st;

It's a good thing I know where the gasoline and the oil goes.

Art

ART:

Just don't put diesel fuel in the gas tank.

Leave that to "Diesel John" from Rhode Island at Carlisle 2005.

It's amazing that the Carlisle Truck Stop would take 7 gallons of contaminated gas from me like "Oh, yeah.....it happens all the time!"

Danny:

"Silent Carl" tells me that the New Milford, CT VW dealership is going out of business after 60 years.  We should be first in line to bid on their entire stock of VW factory tools.

http://www.newstimes.com/busin...65-years-6112993.php

Hmmmmm. Let's go there and just sneak them out the back door! Seriously though I'd like to get my hands on any of these: VW 287-299

List here, let it load for a second before you scroll, it's got pictures:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/tools3.php

Mr. Piperato,

I am delighted to see that you are doing it like it needs to be done.  Checking everything for wear, and such.  I would expect no less.   And you think you know how it all works now. Hmmm . . .   I have studied a few manual transmissions, and I still have no good idea how it all REALLY works.  I fully understand about ratios and such (I am an ME after all) but the exact way it all fits, and shifts and goes is still mysterious to me.  Imagine this:  Someone has just invented an engine you can put into a carriage w/ four wheels.  You have a clean sheet of paper and a few sharp pencils.  How in the heck are you going to hook that engine up to those wheels??  There were some damn clever folks back then.

The "new" continuously variable transmission amazes me in how it shifts so smoothly.  Not sure how well it can handle towing and heat build up though. I almost sprung for a Nissan Murano years ago - but instead went with an old fashion Yota 4Runner automatic. 

Here's an animated graphic video that explains how it all works. It's a little oversimplified in the interest of clarity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPaUJfA1KsY

Turn down the sound so you don't have to listen to the elevator music and the Drumaster 3000.

This doesn't show the synchro cones, which are between the purple and blue gears.

You can see how - before synchromesh when all gearboxes were 'crashboxes' - that you had to 'rev match' going up and double-clutch going down or destroy the gears. And you can see why doing that on a synchromesh box will save wear on the synchros.

You can also see why, when double-clutching down, you must release the clutch pedal in neutral while running up the revs in order to get the layshaft spinning.

And, you can see why synchro cones are purposely made out of soft brass so that they will wear before the gears themselves do.

Beautiful work, Danny. I expect to hear scientific detail on how you (may have) worn out your bearings while leaving your synchros box-fresh. 

This is the pretty much opposite of the wear pattern Jimmy Sartwell found in Bridget's new trans before rebuilding.

Good point Ed: Howcome Danny's bearing are shot and disintegrating, and the rest of the enterprise is in great shape?  Curious.  But don't knock it, right?  Say a quiet thankyou, and press on.

I might be wrong, but this is how I see it. The bearings wore from shock loading, i.e. putting 170 hp through the transmission in a (somewhat) harsh manner. The main, pinion, and diff bearings take all that shock load, as well as the fulcrum plates(shot), diff side gears(still serviceable), and axle spades(shot). The gears(1-4) and the R and P aren't worn from shock loading because they are always in constant mesh. And almost all the filings from the bearings are caught by the two magnetic drain plugs. And when I shift, I don't grind the gears, so that might explain the non-wear I found on the synchros. I also changed the gear oil after 1000 miles and then every 10K after. I replaced my axle seals back in 2008(10-12K) and changed the oil around 20-25K and then again this spring around 33K.

I submit Ed's trans was abused by previous owners, and IIRC has way more miles than mine. And I'm thinking it may not have had any oil change care.

And Ed, I haven't "may have" worn the bearings. They are shot. I'll bring them to Carlisle if you want to inspect them yourself. And for that matter, how much power were you pushing through your trans? Less than 1/3 of what I'm pushing. I rest my case.

Oh, and a big thank you to Mr. Drake, as I received his very serviceable short axles yesterday.

What Danny said was exactly what I was figuring (though I did not realize he already had the bearings in-hand and could see they were shot). I don't know where the trans for my car came from, but most likely it lived its life much like the one I replaced it with: many, many miles under various drivers pushing 50 horses through it with greater or lesser clutch skill. 

Lesser clutch skill/care is gonna grind up the teeth. Danny doesn't do much of that. 

But throwing three-four times the normal horsepower at the thing, all at once, bang-bang-bang, every time you drive it, makes a different wear pattern. 

The good news, I guess, is that even the older, two-side-cover VW boxes can put up with that for a pretty good while. Presumably, if Danny drove more like Stroud (or even me) the thing would last indefinitely. 

That is what I am shooting for in my car--which weighs just a couple hundred pounds more than Danny's and has about 4/5 the power he's got. 

Yeah, Ed, they're all gritty. The diff bearings and main are totally shot. The pinion bearing looks worn, but not shot. Trans was definitely gone through in 2002, that was the stamp on the case. The pinion bearing is Brazilian, so it was definitely rebuilt. Unknown if diff bearings were new, no markings on them. Main bearing has a Hong Kong number on it, so I'm thinking diff bearings are from China as well. This time, it will get better bearings. It's funny to me that the one Brazil bearing looks OK, and the other two(three) are shot.

Ed, I'm POSITIVE you'll care for your new powertrain better than it's past abusers!

Maybe I should drive slower and make it last? Nah, it ain't no fun! Besides, I can rebuild it again in another ten years. Better life than the drag racers, they rebuild after a track day, and sometimes between runs.

"Maybe I should drive slower and make it last?"  BWAAAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Who you kiddin'??

HERE'S A SET OF GEARS....No syncros needed. Just crunch them. i like to call them nonconstant velocity, nonsynchromesh, two to one ratio, masterpiece of the thoughts of one person who spends a lot of time in traffic on Calif. freeways commuting to make a living.....Bruce

The 289 unit came as a universal kit. Swing, IRS, and vanagon. I a complete unit a while back for some $$$$. Those are rare and difficult to find one with all the pieces and the dial indicator.  

Danny, I stock most of the bearings and parts for the trans. German bearings are great but the chinese mainshaft bearings and side cover bearings are used quite often by most all the trans rebuilt shops. To sure up the clearances also check and consider the needle bearings for the gears. Hand Pac needle bearings will reduce some of the gear play, also try to locate good German fulcrums. The new vw Brazilian ones have a groove but are not as hard as the factory German ones. Also the fulcrums are color coded to match the axle color code stripe.  If you have a super diff and do a lot of freeway or 65-75 mph driving for long periods  put a stock diff in it. The super diffs lack good lubrication on the ring gear side to the fulcrums.  I have experimentEd with heading scoops to the diff to force the oil into the cavity, along with larger oiling holes and finally gave up. Stock diff with a beef-a-diff works fine. 

Next time you need the pullers lets me know.

Thanks Anthony. Cory's swing axles/my fulcrum plates/side gears all measure in spec. Thanks again Cory!

Saw this GREAT explanation of synchros/shift operation, first 9 minutes is applicable even though it is about 'Merican trasmissions:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?...ture=player_embedded

I ordered all my bearings and gaskets and stuff from Weddle Industries. Spent a little more for German or Brazilian(FAG or SKF) instead of Chinese. I took the bearings apart today. The main bearing(Chinese) was the worst, inner AND outer races pitted. The diff bearings were a mixed bag. The non-thrust passenger side was fairly tight and maybe OK, the driver side was clearly worn and had play, but no pitting. The Brazilian pinion bearing had wear, but no pitting of any kind. It's getting replaced anyway.

Case is all together and holes plugged. Sitting at my friend's shop and he'll media blast the outside tomorrow.

Getting there. Pics to follow when parts come in.

Danny,

Keep on keepin' on.  You are going to be SO much happier w/ a tight box.  Actually most of us fellas feel that way too.

Well . . . .  wassup Doc??

Parts should arrive Wednesday. Nothing to report other than I ordered them. Painted the trans case. Talked to a tech at Weddle, he said sounds like you're on the right path. He did recommend that I get some racing gear oil after I put 300 miles on it and dump the cheap stuff out.