Troubleshooting Help Needed

Just got the Speedster off the flatbed and into my garage. The planned dinner out with my wife will have to wait. The car started right up after several days parked in the garage. Ran fine the first couple of miles until I got out of the residential area and noticed a terrible stumble and lack of acceleration at anything more than just a slight amount of loud pedal. Backing off the gas smoothed it right out. Idle and steady-speed performance was fine. As we were looking for a parking place the engine died. It re-started and then died again. The behavior was just like fuel starvation. After it quit the third time it was done. Would not fire at all. There is gas in the tank and gas in the fuel filter, although possibly less than normal.The filter has a few small specks of apparent contamination, but nothing close to being clogged. I had no tools, so I couldn't check to see if the fuel pump was pumping.
This is a year-old Beck with a CB Performance 1915, dual Webber 44IDFs. Only about 2500 miles since new. I have fuel system cleaner in the current tankful of gas and have probably run a total of 6 gallons of treated gas through it.The temperature was very mild, in the 70s, and I know engine temp was not a factor. So, gentlemen, what is my first step? Second?

Your fuel pump should at least vibrate rythmically if it's working, but as Alan and Angela have said already tonight in another thread, it's fuel, it's electricity or its oil.
Is your fuel gauge accurate? If not, the easy step 1 is to add a gallon and try again. I've been stuck a couple times because I counted on a crappy gauge. You said the car had been sitting for a while, too, so you might want to have a look at the spark plugs and whether they're rusted or gummed up.
Step 2 for me would be to check the distributor for spark, as described for Jarco in the thread right next to this one; timing light known to work and a pulled wire under starting conditions. If you have a normal coil and haven't traded it out for anything fancy, it could be it died of natural causes.
Step 3 would be to check the terminals on your battery and the charge in the battery itself. If the car's not even making minor electrical noises, I'd sure be taking loose and cleaning every electrical connection I could reach between the battery and the engine.
I'd start at the front of the car and have a good look at that battery. Depending on how long it was charged before it was delivered to you, and whether the battery is talking to the alternator/generator, you might have been running the car on it for a while and not the A/C you're supposed to have. If it's not a maintenance-free battery and you can see into the six cells inside, have a look at where the fluid levels are. If you can get a charger and some distilled water in there, maybe you'll be back on the road soon.
Give a call if you're jammed up. Maybe I can talk you through the checklist. (443) 995-0576.

Maybe Angela and Steve are still up? (lol)

first step - undo the fuel filter

stick hose in a plastic cup

get a helper to turn engine over, and see if fuel pumps out.

If it's good, pull one of the plugs, ground it (on engine case), hold it carefully with insulated gloves / tools

get a helper to turn engine over, and see if it sparks.

only take three things to run one of these motors. fuel, air and spark. These are VERY forgiving motors.

Just from what you wrote... def'y sound like the fuel pump. It happened to me not too long ago and I experienced the same routine problems that you have.

It's 6 AM and I'm on my way out the door to work. I am fairly certain it's a fuel issue. I know there is gas in the tank. I carry a stick since my gauge is unreliable below half a tank. If I am correct that it's fuel starvation, is it not unusual for a nearly new fuel pump to fail? Is there another malfunction I should look for? If I remove the pump, can I re-use the gasket, or if not, how do I determine the proper replacement gasket? I half expected a hiss from the tank when I removed the cap, from a venting issue. That didn't happen.

Rich,

I had to go through your file and look at photos to see what fuel pump was on the motor. It is a Brosol mechanical pump. Almost certain that is the cause. Long story short, Brosol is no longer Brosol. They were bought out by some other company a few years ago and the name is the same, but the quality is far from the same. I have seen many pumps fail in the fist few months of operation.
Some failures have been internal (diaphragm) and others have been the lever arm that sits on top of the push rod... it either breaks or the pin falls out causing it to fall apart.

With a diaphragm problem, you can usually see the pump pushing air bubbles backwards into the fuel filter. Lever arm: you can see the pin sticking out one side, unless it is just bent.

Good advise above too, regarding testing the pump.

Pump replacement is literally a few hose clamps and 2 13mm nuts. overall a 30 min job if you move slow.

You'll need to know the length of your push rod so you know which pump to get. Or you can look at the bottom of the pump to see if the lever arm is recessed slightly, or protruding from the bottom of the pump slightly. Or... you can switch to an electric pump and forget about it.

Call me if you need anything.


Carey

Oh yeah, one more thing. On the pumps I've seen with a diaphragm problem you cannot always tell by disconnecting the fuel line and trying to pump fuel into a container. Seems as if something is happening to the pump that causes it to move fluid both ways. With the lines pulled off it can still squirt some fuel (usually enough to keep the engine idling, but not enough for any load).

May not be the case for you, but just thought I'd throw it out there.

I feel your pain Rich! I was posting last night with an electrical problem. Pretty sad when my car has more miles on the back of the AAA truck than on the street! But then most of those trips were for big mods like paint and interior. Good luck my bruth'a.

Rich,

When you get the car going again are you coming down for the "Southern Oregon Cruise" again? Info in the events sections. let me know either way, love to see you and the wife and the now running Speedy down here again.

Bruce

Thanks to all for the replies.
Bruce, you guys have chosen the weekend of my daughter's 21st birthday for this year's tour, so I may not be able to make it. I haven't entirely ruled it out, though.

"first step - undo the fuel filter
stick hose in a plastic cup
get a helper to turn engine over, and see if fuel pumps out."

If that plastic cup happens to be made of styrofoam, and you DO happen to get a good fuel flow, you've got the start of a nice little ball of plastic explosive goin' for yourself . . .

TC- LOL Homemade napalm. "I love the smell of napalm in the morning."

Rich- I went ahead and sent out a pump. You should have it first of the week. I also sent out a 4" push rod, just in case yours is 4.25". I'll just have CB send the replacement stuff to my shop... Hope that's OK. Call me if you have any questions about install.


Carey

I finally found some time to spend in the garage today. First thing I did was check the fuel pump. When the engine turned over, the pump appeared to be pumping...Squirt.........Squirt......Squirt. Not knowing if I should be seeing a more steady stream, I wasn't ready to rule out the pump as the problem. So I checked for spark. No problem there. Remembering Carey's post about the fuel pump sometimes appearing to be working, I went ahead and put the new one on. Presto! She fired right up. I am posting this so those who may be interested will know how things turned out, but also to let you know that pulling the fuel line and pumping gas into a cup apparently is not a sure-fire diagnostic method.

If this does turn out to fix the problem Rich, the technical explanation is "wussy fuel pump." Works sort of, but its a wussy...

angela

It happened once so in my mind, it could happen again. I recommend that you drive it for a while and enjoy the car and when convienent, install a good quality rotary electric fuel pump set to 3 1/2 pounds of pressure. Many of these pumps such as the one sold at CB are pre-set and all you have to mount it as close to the fuel tank as possible and re-route your fuel lines. see:
http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=577
http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=578

Topic resurrection.
Due to laziness, uncertainty about what to do next, and Oregon cold and rain, my car has been sitting in the garage with the engine problem unsolved. One thought popped into my brain this morning and I'll be you guys can answer this. Just before this problem arose, I had taken the car to a local shop for, among other things, a valve adjustment. I explained that there weren't a lot of miles on it since the last adjustment, that I wasn't clear to what clearance they had been set, and that the engine builder recommended .002". They found the clearances were all over the place, so they adjusted them all to .004". I didn't question that at the time, but now I am wondering if .002" excessive clearance is enough to cause my problem? The car won't rev when it is cold, and after it warms up it dies and won't re-start. You know I thought this was a fuel problem, but could the excessive clearance affect the valve timing and limit the duration enough to cause my problem?

Rich....four thou. clearance might be noisy, but the engine should be reasonably responsive.....This still sounds like a fuel problem.....Reread Carey Hines threads, call him and lay out a plan of attack.....It should not be too hard to isolate the problem....

Good Luck....

I noticed that in an earlier post you said that the new fuel pump helped it to start better. How does it drive now?

Actually, Lane, the new pump made no discernable difference. The car started fine when cold, didn't want to rev, and then died as things warmed up. (Not hot, I was just driving around the block.) Since the valve clearance was the only thing messed with prior to this problem, I was trying the old scientific method trying to correlate the valve adjustment with the engine stalling. If .004" is a VW standard, and .002" is the CB Perf. recommendation, maybe the thermal expansion of the barrels would lead to .006" clearance and that was enough to foul things up. Anyways, still too damp and cold to work comfortably on it and test drive, so I'll look forward to any suggestions that haven't already been posted.

Lane went through something like this when his new car had been sitting for a while and the preservative in his gas tank coagulated into gelatinous globs in his fuel system and caused fuel starvation. He had to drain the tank, remove the strainer at the bottom of the gas tank and make sure it's clean, clean out the tank (don't remember what he used for that) and start over again. Oh! and replace whatever filters in the fuel delivery system, too.

I thought it might be an intake manifold problem, but that usually involves poor idle (it would "seek" or randomly move around in rpms as you watch it) and various popping and farting sounds (from the engine, not you). Yours sounds like classic fuel starvation, as you mentioned, and since you've replaced the fuel pump, maybe strainer or filter clog is the next place to look. (I might still check the tightness of the intake to head nuts, just to make sure). Don't forget to check for strainers in your carbs, where the fuel line enters the carb body.

BTW: You could run the valve lash out to .010" and probably not notice much more than a very small change in performance - NOT the symptoms you describe. When you get a chance, get them re-set to .002" and you'll be fine. In the meantime, .004" should be more than OK, although they'll make slightly more noise, that's all (nothing will be harmed).

gn

Rich and I exchanged some emails back in the Fall when he was first talking about this. AS a reminder, Rich, if you have your tank cleaned (I took mine to the local air-cooled guru), you will also need to replace your fuel lines and filters, and thoroughly clean out your carbs. The symptoms do sound awfully similar.

I did have both filters clog with some brownish red gunk a while ago. The translucent plastic filter does not appear to be fouled. Of course I can't tell about the metal canister by looking at it. I have a plan of attack for trouble shooting the filters and lines. I just wish the weather would get a little friendlier.

Replace everything that you can, even if it looks clean. Flush out the fuel pump, and it should be ok. The hard fuel line that runs through the center tunnel is the only bit of line that you shouldn't replace. When you reassemble it all, put a bottle of Chevron Techron in with the gas. I'm still willing to bet this is it.

I had a similar problem recently. My car had been parked for a few months with Sea Foam in the fuel as a stabilizer/preservative. The car fired right up, drove for bout 12 miles to my house and was parked. The next day I headed out running great. After a few miles it started to miss a little at about half throttle. Sputtering, popping, a little back fire on deceleration. This got progressively worse as I drove. It would idle fine. I looked at the little plastic filter and it looked clean but a little uniform reddish color. I thought about cleaning the carbs, but my lazy side said, "it will be a lot easier to change that little filter." Put a new on on with new clamps and fuel hose. Immediate puuuurrrrfect running car! Your mileage may vary! It is worth a try. Good luck!

Will (and Rich, too):

Your luck may not last. Lane started with changing the fuel filter and that was only a short-term fix.

The newer gas tanks are coming from China. They are treated inside with something like Cozmolene, which is a wax-like substance used as a preservative so they don't rust inside before they get installed. The preservative is formulated to slowly dissolve in gasoline such that, if you're using the car regularly, it will be gone in a month or so with no problems, provided you drive it regularly.

What happens, is that these cars get driven very seldom - like on weekends and then only for a little while. The gas in the tank dissolves the Cozmolene while it's sitting there and, instead of dissolving over several tankfulls where it would be relatively thin and not cause any problems, it all dissolves in one or two tanks or, worse, in a partial tankful over a few months of inactivity. This makes the solution very thick and the dissolved stuff begins to coagulate into globules (kinda like the cellulite on old ladies' thighs) which clog things.

So now you've got this solution of waxy junk mixed in with the gas, going through your filters, tubes, hoses, fuel pump and (yuck!) into your carbs, where it does all sorts of nasty, clogging things to the jets and passages until you clean it all out, once and for all.

I'm not making this up.......just ask Lane about all he went through to get HIS system clean (in his CAR, not him, personally) and others who have gone through the same problem.

Gas stabilizers, wonderful though they are, will not affect the dissolving of this stuff. All stabilizers do is retard the formation of varnish as the gasoline begins to break down in the tank after 4-6 months. Even stale gas will still dissolve the Cozmolene.

There are a number of ways to get that stuff out of there, but most of them involve removing the tank, draining it and steam-cleaning it or agitating a lot of something around in there (I generally use a few pounds of 1/4-20 nuts) for a good while to wear the stuff off and flush it away. I think John Weyend strapped his tank to a tractor rear wheel and let it slowly spin for a couple of hours - whatever floats your boat. Many of us have been through this....

Good luck, and don't be afraid to ask for more tips.

gn

The quick fix: when you get a new tank take it to a radiator shop have it boiled out for $20. The paint will also come off, a $4 rattle can will refinish it. ~Alan

Heres a LJ tec to ruleout leaking intake manifold gaskets:

Buy some aerosol staring fluid (ether)start your engine and spray it near the base of the intake manifolds and where the carbs bolt to the manifolds. If you have an air intake leak, your engine will rev a bit when you spray the starter fluid. If it does rev up, replace the gaskets before you do anything else.

Thanks for the info Gordon. I cut open the filter that I replaced and the material was evenly colored kind of rust red. There was no texture to the material like grainy or waxy like cosmolene. The mystery remains. I will be changing filters about every oil change and looking at the element for debris. It was a big surprise that changing the filter resulted in immediate perfect running through all throttle settings and idle. The engine sounded like just one of the cylinders was bogging before the filter change. As soon as I started the motor I could hear the difference and when I accelerated through the gears it was as smooth as silk. I hope it holds!

I had a bout with a dirty filter in years past. I had gotten a bit liberal with the sealer when mounting a sender unit. Some of the sealer ended up in the filter.
One day I was tooling around as usual. When I went to go up over the mountain, the car started sputtering and nearly died. I pulled in a driveway and turned around back down the hill. Ran great going back down and on level roads.
The filter was clogged just enough to starve the engine under load going uphill. It is amazing how a dirty filter can ruin a day. I change filters each spring as part of the spring maintainance.

Closure, finally.
Motivated by the possibility of some drying weather after our endless Northwest rainy season, I had the Speedie flatbedded to a local shop where they found gunky needle valves in the carbs and they replaced some bad connectors on the coil. I was told to go drive the hell out of it to allow the fuel system cleaner to work. Too much rain today, but, hey, she's running again!

That's some great news! Glad to hear your Speedy is ready to rock!!

Yeah. You guys are great, but this forum is still no substitute for smashing bugs with my Speedie.