Tube Chassis & VW suspension?

There have been discussion here about VW pan based Speedsters vs. Tube chassis based speedsters. What hasn't been debated is the vw suspension used on the Tube frame.
Tube chassis or VW Pan they still hang the VW suspension at each end of whatever they use. With the vw suspension hung there, then they work around it for things like R-P steering, and rear torsion bar clearance,etc.
Why do the tube chassis manufactures still use the VW torsion bar suspension. Has anyone considered doing tube chassis without grafting VW suspension components.
Aren't there simpler and more elegant solutions to suspension like a-arms, airbags, coil over shocks, or any of the aftermarket upgrade suspension piceces for street rods?
Greg B

Greg, they do, look at the Specialty Autoworks Suspension. It is more of what your asking for and done the way you are suggesting.

Yeah, I would think that, if they're going to the effort of a tube design, they could at least graft on 944 suspension and brakes, along with the R&P. Coil-overs at all four corners would sound like a slam dunk and you could forget about the torsion bars - and they couold be adjustable, too!

Besides, the Street Rod crowd are using different updated suspension bits all the time, like Mustang II front ends and so forth.

gn

My ideal would be the IM tube frame specifically designed for the 911 suspension, front and rear and a nice FAT engine in the back. Give me the 911 torsion bars any day. An added benifit is the flat front trunk, a 20+ gal. fuel cell, and full adjustability.

What's wrong with the suspension? That's one of the things that makes the Speedster a natural for reproduction. Contemporary ACVW suspensions are nearly the same as the original 356-only improved! Sure there are more technologically improved set-ups out there but for these small, light-weight packages I don't see the point. The addition of front discs and rear sway-a-way bars is improvement enough for me! It's part of the magic that makes them what they are.

On my speedsters project chassis I considered all the alternatives, mixing and matching bug parts with tube chassis, mustang 2 front ends, even copying corvette suspension geometry, at the end opted for going all custom, upper and lower a arms, air bags, adjustable ride height, rack and pinion steering.
is costing me an arm and a leg in design and engineering but it will be all worth
It will be cutting edge with a suspension that will be worthy of a racing car, great negative camber on compression and great handling characteristics, super comfortable and light weight

Steve, I would love to see your set up when you get it rolling.

Jim

Gordon, I run a Mustang II on a 54 3100 1/2T and I wouldn't say it is cutting edge. Those and the old Nova clips have been Street Rod staples for two decades and came off a car that was nortorious for it's crappy handling. Please don't cite a Stang II front end as any kind of improvement over the bug front end. They are cheap priced for a reason.

I think the primary reason for the of lack suspension mods is "they" are running a cost to sales issue just like "you and I" are. If I could have afforded it I would have opted for a full 911 suspension, which is right at the tops of the pull-a-part suspensions you might want to hang on a Speedster inspired tube frame. Including a Subarooster with a pretty darn good suspension.

I get Greg's point 100%. I just think that to truly go with a custom suspension would take the base IM, TR, SAW, or Beck out of the market. But you know what? I'll bet if any of us were willing to pop the bucks, then one of the builders would hang anything we can afford on a frame.

Street Rods were cited as an example. Has anyone priced what a roller rod of any decent quailty costs these days? And I'm not talking about a cutting edge set up... just your Stang-II and a Ford 9" with a custom frame and detailed body? Next, try a Cobra with anything besides a Stang II and a 9". Ok, lets' price anything with a Vette rear? Now add wiring, interior, details, glass, tops, etc. Even a decked out roller Bucket T costs as much as a Coach IM.

I think it has everything to do with $$. But yes, it would be cool. I like Dale's opts for a 911 suspension on an IM with a solid FAT IV. And I was tempted to do just that. But I gotta say I am excited about CB discs, konis, light wheels, and rack & pinion.... on a custom frame with the CB 2110 engine set 3" forward.

I loved my VS cake in a pan. This is the icing. One thing though... I like Gregs post... I just wonder if what he proposes is affordable for a builder to place the R&D in, and try and sell as a base car. IM already has a 911 optioned frame..... why go with a 944?

Greg,

Just for grins, what would you use as a suspension with a frame built to hang it?

I'd go with the 911 suspension set up. That 912 Engine in that Black GT done with Wilhoite's FI set up would be a neat way to go. I see they are selling that set up now. Mate that to a 901, and I think it would be a nice balanced driver.

I like the VW stuff. It's fine. And for now it's inexpensive and there are tons of aftermarket parts available. I don't consider the Speedster my Ultimate ride. It's a nice car,and I'd like to keep up to date. (I'd like rack and pinion steering too)
But...
If I was going for a tube frame, I'd go mid engine. (how do the Spider kit cars mount eng. and trans?)
Look at any SCCA Formula Ford or similar class car. I'd use similar set up and suspension. It wouldn't have to be inboard shocks, but A arms and coilovers or airbags. Something that's more easily adjustable.
I'd even go for one of the gearboxes they use (although they are noisy with straight cut gears). And...You'd have an indefinite range of easily changeable gear rations and 5 or more speeds.

The straight cut gears are noisy though. I had a Renault R-5, mid enging turbo with a straight cut geared tranny. that gearbox was loud. especially when going slow. Man that box of a car would fly and go around corners.

Greg B

Speaking of tube chassis , anyone own a speedster with a MetalCraft chassis or have knowledge /experience with one?

Alan,

Now that you mentioned it, they had custom front end on the Metalcfraft chassis, didn't they?

Here is a simple design that could work with a speedster kit body.The main structure would of course be in the center not to affect the looks.

I am not too fond of the front A arm configuration. The chassis has given me more ideas for CAD model I'm working on. I might have to retire sooner.

Bruce

Pixs of the MetalCraft chassis, the only upgrade I would do is go with a better quality adjustable coil over shock

Greg, that sounds like a neat set up.

My reaction on the first post was a little bit of a knee jerk. I am all for seeing the envelope pushed with the Wiggins/GB IMs, Steve and Angela's rides, and a Turbo Sawster. I guess I was just speaking out loud from my own pocket-book's perspective. I thought about a Porsche suspension and either a 2332, a Fat IV, or something in between with FI. I really like Brook's approach to building for the future and may call Henry on that.

My driving style and limits will be met and exceeded with the set up I selected through IM. I remember years ago just slobering over the thought of a kit... remember when Classic was putting Speedsters in airport lobbies? 4 years ago getting a turn-key VS just made my day and I still love that car. And now, well, I know how much I drive these toys, and it's more than the average bear. But, I won't be doing any track or auto-crossing in it.... just a nice cruiser that I can put into a curve with power to drive through it and brakes to stop with confidence. Driving Dale's car made me a believer in IM. They are 100%ers. On the SAWs... I have always admired his rods at car shows... they are true drivers, and I'll bet John and Steve's cars will wow me when I get a chance to ride in one.

Anyway, again, my thoughts are centered on the why...... If I want an auto-crosser I'll build up a Miata. If I want a true 110%er I'll buy a Vette or a nice 911. But, I opted out of those... My dream is on the way. Henry has made that a possibility... Anyway, I hope I didn't sound defensive to you guys. I probably am a little defensive. I mean, I think I am getting an incredible car for the buck. There will always be faster and cooler ones, but not for me. I like the classic style, the idea of air-cooled engines, and the new tech I am getting in this IM. It's Speedster Heaven for me I would rather have this IM than real steel.

Jim

Alan, I like that frame, after I got the crick out of my neck from lookiing at the first picture, I saw the R&P unit on the second picture, I really like it, where did that come from? Can that be purchased seperate? D-man

Jim,
Exactly! Thats how I feel about my Speedster. I still love the aircooled VW's.
I still have a 72 bug and my wife has a 73 K-Ghia that she bought brand new. I'll always have an aircooled VW of some sort to play around with.

Greg B

It seems to me somebody was at Carlisle last year with a Metalcraft chassis but I don't recall who. Maybe Henry Haefle (sp?).

Check out Ricola Racing and the Wishbone Suspension tab bottom left..

www.ricola.co.uk/

Brian

Darryll

A guy in the Midwest has the chassis as pictured and a unassembled CMC kit, I'm considering the pro's and con's of building yet another speedster.

I like the SLA setup that Ricola has setup.. Just one minor issue i see with it thou.. the two arms should be, if i remember correctly, Parrel with each other at ride height, else you can have some weird Geometry issues when you hit bumps, ect.. and wow on the bump steer using the stock Veedub gear box and tierods.. :) give the guy credit thou :)

Personally i like the T-bar 911 suspension Simple, but effective, larger aftermarket, You can also change `spring rates' for the front more correctly then a ACVW Typ1 front suspension.. Ride height is a Breeze at each corner, ALOT of brake upgrade, is there a Wide 5 type setup for 911's? :/ BUT the 911 suspension ('88 and older?) is only a step or two `better' then ACVW Typ1 parts, specially in the rear..

heh but ACVW typ1 suspension, front like IM, 25MM bars in the rear, and 3/4" sway bars all around and Koni's and it can handle like it was on rails with good rubber :) which isn't bad for a 50+ year old design :)

Also thinking of Sway bars.. why aren't the VW front bar attached to the chassis?? :S

un-equal lengh upper and lower control arms is the best suspension there is, the unequal lengt gives you negative camber gain when suspension compresses producing exellent handling

The Metalcraft chassis was a real work of art.They were buit in Romulus, Michigan by Bob Sweat, a chassis builder of funny cars in the early days. The Speedster chassis was built (I think) for about 4 years. 1982-1988?? Some one should start building them again now that Speedsters are more popular than ever.

Butch, I think you are right, the market may be wide open for that...

Jim

A few years ago Thunder Ranch engineered a new propreitary tube chassis for Street Beasts. It had VW front suspension. Thunder is now making a similar chassis for their own line of speedsters. Still has VW front suspension. I am sure for a "a few dollars more" Tom McBurnie could easily modify this chassis to accomodaate any number of dual control arm front suspension systems, including rack and pinion steering. And Tom has the breadth of car building experience (not just speedsters) to do it right. All he needs is some ouf our money.

I am building a custom ridgid semi monocoque chassis for my Speedster.
The front suspension will be formula 1 style double wishbone with pushrod operated coil overs and the rear will be modified porsche 924 semi trailing arm with pushrod operated coil overs.
I am aslo using an Alfa Romeo boxer engine, it has 118hp as standard.
I have just about worked out how to get the gearbox running backward, not as easy as a VW but it can be done. I want this to be the ULIMATE handling Speedster but retain the rear engined configuration.
My welder is shagged, so it will be about a month before I can put a photo that is worth bothering with on the forum. all the main tubes are in place, ready for the stressed sheet steel.

The good thing about the VW front suspension is that it doesn't develop enough grip to overwhelm the rear suspension. If I was going to change the front, I'd definately do the rear like Mick is doing.
ed

Why do you rave about the metalcraft chassis, I wouldn't like to be in a side impact in that thing!!
Also no point in having nice suspension front and rear if the frame is going to twist in the middle.
No disrespect intended, just an observation.