Tubular Frames

Does anyone have any pictures they could share of either Thunder Ranch or JPS's tubular frame? Or for that matter, anyone else's as well.

Thanks.

Bill

To see the Intermeccanica tube frame, go to www.intermeccanica.com, click on 'showroom' then 'ride'. I might be wrong, but I think Intermeccanica is the only company that makes a full tube frame for their cars, that goes from front bumper to rear bumper. They also come standard with an IRS rear suspension.
Ron

Ron-

You're not wrong.

Stan, I guess you could clarify, but I don't see what you mean that Ron is not wrong? Maybe we are splitting hairs I don't understand what is being said? But to say that Intermeccanica is the only one is, well less then true?

SAW has an engineered full length structural tubular space frame. Front and rear fully adjustable independent suspension, a steel firewall separating the occupants from the gas tank, and a real 356A heavy gauge steel floor to protect from intruding road debris. The doors are also reinforced with a steel frame connecting the hinge bar to the door latch Most others are sub frames to which VW components are bolted with fiberglass floors

But, I am surprsied, or maybe I'm not, that no one mentioned it?

The last sentence is just for you Jim. You might recognize the phrase?

Of course the truth is were all being really shallow and disengenous, because he asked for some pretty specific information and were not really providing it?

Here is what he asked for, whether it really is what he needs?

Bill here are a few of the former Metal Craft manufactures frame. These are just for reference i.e. file photo's and not something that I own .

Bill, if you would like some build pics of the IM (Intermeccanica) frame, or any other stage of build, I have some I could send in any size or format.... I also could set up a page of thumbnails if you are seriously considering an IM. Stan's frame is in build now, and he may have some current pics too.

I can speak for the handling, strength, and stability of the IM frame and suspension set up... just write a p-mail to jward3 at cox dot net. My IM handles incredible... like a sports car! What a concept, eh? Every other facet of the Intermeccanica build is 110%, and the builder communications, company integrity, and, builder/owner relationship are unmatched as far as I am concerned.

JW

Additional option , in the current issue of Kit Car Builder there is a photo of a JPS tube frame that utlizes the rear VW suspension grafted to the tube set up. It appears to be a quality design.

You caught me in mid-type.....I remembered John talking about that one when we met him at Carlisle. And his frame also mounts to the front torsion tubes farther out than stock, at about the same locations as the "real" 356 frame headset, to provide additional stiffening of the front end and less torsional flex.

There are a LOT of innovative things going on out there...

I don't know what you guys are reading, but SAW, Thunder Ranch and Beck ALL provide tubular frames in lieu of VW pans.

From Beck's web site: "The foundation of every Beck Speedster;is the 3" DOM tubular chassis."

And from the Thunder Ranch web site: "The foundation of each Thunder Ranch 356 Speedster is a new powder coated full tubular frame. This proprietary design is used to insure proper chassis strength, reduce weight, and maximum durability of each Thunder Ranch 356 Speedster."

Guess IM is just another frame in the crowd.

Yeah, Yeah......we hear ya.

I have GB's Hellas, and a few other items (including his 2 qt wide glide sump) that make me crow about my IM in a rabid way...... and so in memory of GB and for GB... I say Horse Puckey.

I love 'em all...

Have a nice drive.

Peace and a Tubular Frame On The Side. Or the Pan of your choice. I love em all... but I love my IM the best.

Love'm all as Jim said, however, you get what you pay for, and that goes for everything, not just the frame. A tubular frame does not make a car better or worse, it is the combination of the ingredients and the quality of the execution that determine what works best.

www.thunderranch.com/knotts.html

www.thunderranch.com/356.html

Alan, Gordon, Steve, et al-

Here's the deal- I'm not bashing anybody's car, or any particular way of building them, but I'm not going to beat around the bush either.

SAW obviously makes a full tubular frame, as nothing is from a VW. They are so different from the rest of our cars as to be really another type of vehicle altogether. Beyond a familiar body and rear wheel drive, they really don't share any characteristics with any other car. That isn't bad- just different, and that is why I didn't include them in my somewhat cryptic, short response above.

As far as Thunder Ranch, and JPS, Beck, and MetalCrafters frames- they have tubes, which makes them tubular I suppose. But in the final analysis, they are pan replacement frames, not full tubular frames. The sub-frame glassed into the body bolts to the pan-replacement frame. Therefore there are two frames- a pan replacement, and the sub-frame. These frames do not even come close to mating perfectly along the entire length, and are joined by bolting, gluing, etc. This joint is not the thing as a full frame.

The pan/sub-frame thing may be perfectly adequate for most applications, but it does have limitations. I liked my first car, I loved my JPS. Take a look at the frame picture I just posted of my new car, then take a look at the pan-replacement frames posted on Thunder-Ranch's website and in other places. They aren't the same thing, no matter how much we all want it to be.

Intermeccanica is playing the game on a whole different level.

Valid points, also a case of what one wants to do with the car and to what financial point the buyer feels is justifiable. All in all there is a varied speedster product line for all that want to expenience and own a speedster and... the SOC has the experience and informantion available for a prospective buyer to become the educated consumer.
What ever became of a "Nardi horn button" topic.. it was so simple them :)

That's why they make Miatas AND Ferraris.
Well said Alan

After reveiwing my pics of JPS composit frame I couldn't in all good concience call thier frame a pan frame. I f anyone who was at Knotts this year got to really look at it , it is as good as a tube frame. Nice engineering John. It makes me want a coupe from JPS all the more. I bought a beck for its frame,and I have to say after looking at the one I saw at Knotts this year it is as good as my frame on my beck.

Steve, could you explain what you mean when you say the doors on the SAW "are also reinforced with a steel frame connecting the hinge bar to the door latch". Do you mean there is a steel frame inside the door connected on one side to the hinge bar and on the other side to the door latch? If that is the case, is anyone aware of anyone else who does that? (I know Platinum does, as it is a requirement for registration in NZ, but would be interested to hear if anyone else does.)

Cheers, John.

John, I'm not sure who does and doesn't do this?

At one time SAW had a picture on their website comparing the inside of their door to "everyone else". Theirs appears to have an inner frame for strengthening between the hinge mounts and the latch. I can no longer find that picture.

www.specialtyauto.com/bills_356a_flared_cabriolet.htm

Scroll down page to pic of door. Saw car is built to DOT specs.

jkl

Thank you jkl. Does any other manufacturer do this -- I've looked but can't see it on the websites.

This is sort of cool . . .

www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=196218

Kinda solves the title problem, kinda . . .

Thanks to Bill George for the invite to post about my tube frames on this site. I have been building tube fromes for manx type buggies and manx type road cars for 6 years now, and at the request of John Steele, I cut one of the full tube manx frames and fitted it to the rear section of the vw pan, All of the geometry is the same is the same as a vw with the exception of being shorter thru the pan to fit speedsters and a 1/4 inch kick at the bottom mount for the vw beam to get the caster back into vw specs for lowered beams. From all the emails I was getting after Knott's I thought I should clear up the fact that I did build the forward half of the JPS frame, but did not do the actual joining welding of the two pieces. I have not put this frame on the race plate to see just how resistant is is to bending since I have put my manx chassis thru that process and have found they are stronger, by alot. I am not trying to build a FULL tube chassis as I see in the SAW car, all the old speedsters wouldn't fit without cutting them up, the fully adjustabel front and rear chassis is for my old IM, still waiting for time to put it back together. I am around most of the time to answer any and all questions freely about the chassis, Thank you David Barrett in fresno 559 876 3217

Some of my knowledge of the layout of the VW pan comes from building models as a kid, so I could well be out in left field here. However, I remember the rear suspension as being connected to the lateral tube containing the rear torsion bars, which is only connected to the central backbone. Is this correct? That would seem to allow for a great deal of twisting under load. The Beck frame appears to connect to the rear suspension where the trailing arms are attached to the torsion bars, and again at the upper mounting point for the shock. This appears to be a more rigid design. It also appears to mount the front suspension as wide as possible - much like the JPS frame seems to do. This makes the Beck frame look good in comparison to most others. Am I misunderstanding something here, or is this a competitive advantage?

Tom McBurnie has asked me to post his response to the tube frame thread. Any reply to him can be submitted to me which I will pass along accordingly.

Re:Tube Frames

When a person decides to buy Speedster from one manufacturer over the others he or she often considers the

As a Thunder Ranch Speedster owner I was a bit stunned when I read Stan

Re: Street Beasts tube frame.

While the overall design is well designed, constructed, the actual jig boring of all mounting points is so far off it's a mess.....
(I assume this to be street beasts fault)It's a labor intensive situation to fabricate and correct these problems.
Without extensive fabriction skills, a Street Beasts Speedster is
...Not for the adverage builder and is at the very bottom of the Speedster build chain.

Pedal assembly holes: too close to the floor and too far forward.

Master cylinder: doesn't fit into the exsisting bulkhead bore.

Front axle beam: saddles are too small and must be opened up for the axle beam to rest snugly into the saddles.

Rear suspension: saddles that accept the VW torsion tube donor suspension section are also too small and have to be V cut to open them to accept the VW torsion tube as well as ther V cut then must be rewelded closed

Body: While the fit and finish are excellent, , Steet Beasts leaves a 1" gap where the front bulk head meets the cowl and upper inner wheel well areas , this has to be fiberglassed to strengthen this area. Add body work skills to the above.

This is as far along to date, a kit assembly to me, has minimal fabrication, even the many CMC's I have assembled do not come close to the Street Beasts problems. I am sure that there will be more to add as other problems surface .

"Stan Galat decided to purchase an Intermeccanica Speedster which is of course his perrogative. Stan like some other buyers make their purchase and then justify it with uninformed, unintelligent, partisan, ramblings that only demean their position."

Wow. 5 years, two cars, and my own "uninformed, unitelligent, partisan ramblings". I'll let the record of fairness and reason I've left here speak for itself. I wish Tom and Thunder Ranch the best. I guess we'll see who's partisan ramblings will ultimately demean their own position.

Thunder Ranch car blown up - frame survives.


h t t p ://www.thunderranch.com/images/Miami%2520Vice.mpg

Knotts 2006 will probably have 42 Cobras and the Thunder Ranch tent set across from the AHA Booth.... Have fun stroking your trophies boys. Maybe if you inhale on the AHA side-pipes long enough the Cobra boys will invite you to their courtesy suite. Most of us will be having fun somewhere else.

Stan Galat is one of the more informed, experienced, and senior members of the forum. I suggest you all take your TR political agenda and the letter from the builder back to Knotts USA, where they can be stuffed in that AHA ballot box.

5 Years, 2 Cars, and proud to call Stan a friend.

Jim Bob Ward

That's funny Dave! JW

Jim: Had you made it to Carlisle you would have no doubt gone home with the gold.

I never mentioned this before, but I'm gonna now because it has become so apparent in this thread. When faced with a decision to put your car in the AHA show, what was more important. Being with the speedsterowners.com people or being with the thunder ranch people. I couldn't figure out why you would put your car in with the cobras. This shows how naieve I really am. I loved Bill's car, but anyone who thinks it was better then about 5 others is crazy. Thats right crazy. I'll throw the gauntlet down on this one, becuase it smelled up the place so bad that a lot of people want to get together somewhere else next year. Thunder Ranch should be ashamed of what they did to get that trophy. You want to talk about bias, after doing something like that? I mean really, if you got to cheat to win whats the point? Its been hinted at, but I'm not much for hinting so there it is.

Oh, and Jim, did you get the Carlisle Event shirt you ordered??

BD