Turbo-charging Type II Engines

I was reading the CB catalog today and their comment on using the 48 IDF Webers was not encouraging: "...48 IDF's are a little rough for street use." Yikes, these things are going in my new car!

Being a newbie and apparently not knowing much of anything (except how to spend money),will someone please tell me why I don't hear much of anything about turbo-charging on this site? Why not install a turbo to get some real torque and HP when you want it, without sacrificing low end drivability? (I am talking about an engine designed to take a reasonable amount of turbo boost). CB indicates that design and assembly of EFI and turbo engines has become their main focus. They are running a business, not a hobby, so there must be something to this.

As Tom Brokaw would say "what's going on here?"

Brian

Brian

turbo setups are expensive, and would be very difficult to stuff it all under a speedster hood. If you look at Hot VW's mag and see Vw'w with turbos, there is usually plumbing that doesn't fit under the hood. There is less space under the speedster hood. Also they can be touchy, and difficult to tune for a day to day car. Most of us are looking for power, yes, but simplicity also.

Gclarke

Gary, CB has something called a "Hideaway Turbo" p/n 7205 that fits 356 Porsche cars (page 19 of their latest catalog).

interesting!!! still expensive, I would imagine $2500-3000 for the turbo setup alone, add a engine strong enough to handle the huff, and your power plant will be at 6-7 grand......show maybe, drags OK, street, not terribly practical, but hey if ultra power is your gig, money is only relative.

Gclarke

The 2160 engine was $5,200 upcharge over the standard 1600 engine supplied by IM, so it appears we are in the same ballpark.

Thanks Ron,

That will help me sleep better. Oh well, back to the Tennessee-S.Carolina football game.

Brian, your car is looking great, when's it going to be finished?

Dave

Brian, George is really the guy to answer your IDF question, but if I recall, CB does modify the IDF to make it more streetable so it's not just 'off or on'.

Regarding fuel injection and turbos, if you get a complete kit that is built to all work together, that is the best way to go, and the most expensive. You still end up having to program it with a laptop computer, or multi-knob control box. Really what you are doing is like changing the jetting on a carb, but you are doing it electronically. If you can't jet your carbs, you might not want to mess with fuel injection.

Just my 'I have enough knowledge to be dangerous' opinion.

David:

The car should be ready in the next several weeks. CB was finishing the engine the past week, along with George's. Henry's original target date was mid-Sept, so he's pretty close to being on schedule.

Brian:

I have 48 IDFs on my '99 IM, and it runs just fine. Cruises beautifully on 4-6 lane highways, two lane roads, or around town. Much depends on the rest of the set-up of the engine, but it does take some getting used to driving a carburetted car after years of electronically controlled cars. Main thing - in terms of 'roughness' - is to let the engine warm up sufficiently before driving. Once warm, there is no problem at all.

I checked the prices on the turbo and EFI, and it totals to about $5,000, excluding the engine. My 48IDF's are looking like a real deal at this point!

After the great feedback from everyone, I doubt that I would ever consider the turbo/EFI setup, but I am still curious about this approach and the current state of the art in this area.
(Message Edited 9/28/2003 7:10:49 AM)

There was someone this site that had a CB hide-a-way turbo set-up. He seemed happy with it, but had some problems with the fuel injection. Brian, if the 48's are set up right, you will have no problems with them. Proper set-up is the key. I'm sure that Henry will do you right.
Ron
(Message Edited 9/28/2003 9:09:35 AM)

Brian, I think that you read some posts on IDAs, not IDFs. IDAs are more of a drag racer's carb and less daily driver friendly. Although, George had a set on his older car and said they ran great. One of the nice features with IDAs is that jet changes are very easy. IDFs are more 'street' friendly. I've had 40s and I'm now running 44s. 48s are no different...just bigger.
My 911 pickup has CIS (fuel injection) and I hate it. The system is very complicated, with many, many expensive components. It doesn't help that the system is 18 years old). I'd change over to carbs, but with carbs it would never pass pollution testing.
Ron

Ron, I actually got the info on the 48 IDF's from the CB catalog. See my original post. I am glad to hear such positive feedback from you and others on the 48 IDF's, however.

EFI sounded so good when I first read about it. Perhaps I should start thinking of it as "fool infected" rather than fuel injected?

Many of us buy these cars for the 'retro' experience, and carbs certainly give you that. Either you buy an older sports car with the accompanying problems or you go with a newer replica that duplicates the best part(s) of an older sports car.

RJC

Brian, consider that so much BS. The 48 IDF's will work splendidly on your engine if they're jetted correctly. Leave the 40mm venturis in place and try 12mm "top" float levels, F11 emulsion tubes, 57.5 idle jets, 160 main jets, 50 pump squirters, and 200 air correction jets.

You can probably use the same jetting with F3 emulsion tubes (about the same as F11 only smaller diameter for more fuel in the jet well as a reserve).

Or you can try F2 emulsion tubes (almost the same as F3 but lack a row of holes at the top) and change to 155 mains and 165 air corrections.

If the carbs idle mixture screw setting is correct (it's really a faucet for more/less mixture as the idle jet and 115 idle air orifice in the carb top create the actual A/F "mixture"), carbs properly synchronized your engine will run like a watch.

I love the look/sound of dual carbs, but fuel injected/turbo
is my choice [future]. When properly sized [turbo to motor]
its a very happy [read-powerful] trouble free ride.

There are a lot of guys going to junkyards to get turbo units off of wrecked cars and making them work on their Vw engines. Go to shoptalkforums.com and check out "Forced Induction Forum" to learn more. These guys are born tinkerers and can fab anything to make it work, CHEAP.

right up my alley.---cheap=fun

Erik, the "junk yard dog" turbo approach isn't a good idea. There is an excellent new book on turbocharging available that covers everything you ever wanted to know about turbocharging. I would recommend buying the book and studying it carefully before leaping into your local junkyard.

Also, there are some reputable companies that can sell you a good turbo kit. Bear in mind that the best approach to a turbo setup is a good (spelled expensive) engine management system and EFI, and this approach is even more important for air-cooled engines.

of course efi/mgmt is tops, with or without a turbo.
carbs have charm/style but they can,t hold a flame to
efi for drivability. air/fuel meter a nessesity.
my feeling is that we are sometimes to quick to buy
a prepackaged solution rather than a little investigative
work. look at this months vw trends the turbo numbers
are scarey. i'm not implying these would be a pleasurable
drivers, but with efi/mgmt the vw perf. ceiling has been raised.