Turnkey Engine Vendor Advice

Hey Everyone,

It's been some time since I've had a chance to post since my 356 purchase last year. Had a great time driving it from September to November in my stock 1600 (about 40hp), but now I'm ready to step it up. I was able to find a good mechanic who is going to be installing my new engine and transmission among some other stuff.

Now that I'm ready for a new engine, I'm wondering if anyone has any recommendations on a turnkey vendor. Most likely I will be going with a 2165 and a freeway flyer transmission. My mechanic recommended a scat engine (which he says will put out about between 200-300hp to the rear wheels) that he looked up in a magazine. Unfortunately I forgot to ask who the manufacturer is, but I'm wondering if anyone can recommend one. In all of the research I've done I hadn't heard of a scat engine before and am wondering if someone can provide some info. Is it long block, short block, type I, etc? My google search yielded a lot of "alternative" web sites for some really deviant activities, which if my wife sees, will most likely mean manditory counselling for me.

My mechanic said he will look other places for some different choices, but I thought it would be prudent to do some research of my own. The engine he picked out was around $6000.

Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks!
Jim

This time I PROMISE (scouts honor) to post some pictures once the new and improved 356 is ready to roll out of the shop.

Scat is one of the larger engine builders out there and, at least as far as I know, has a good reputation. Two others that are well regarded are CB Performance and Chico Performance. From what I've read and heard, CB seems to be considered at the top, although I'm no expert.

Is that the shop in Lanham-Seabrook, Jim? I'm surprised they looked one up instead of quoting you for a build in-house. They've got a lot of talent there.

Jim,

I am sure you realize that when you put that kind of additional power into the car, there are numerous upgrades that have to be done to coinside with the HP to make it safe, road-worthy and reliable.

Seconded. Don't overlook the brakes.

200-300 RWHP sounds a bit optimistic. Make sure you see the real numbers before laying out the $$$.

http://www.cbperformance.com/turnkeys.asp#2165cnc
is the page where the specifications for their 2165 live. I'm not a dyno genius, but I think parasitic drag is the term for what happens when all the transaxle, axle, brake and tire bits add up to a reduction in output measured as brake horsepower (bhp).
The dyno might tell you what the engine does on the bench with no load on it, but you might lose 40 or more horsies on the way to the pavement because you have to act on all the "go" parts in between.
I've had a hand in a 2332 VW drag car that pushed the dynomometer to 330 horsepower, but that was with a Holley 750 and a turbo. I think something in the 140 hp range is probably pushing it for a non-turbo VW Type I engine in a street car.
Can somebody back me up on that?

The dyno guys told me 20-25% loss thru the d/train.

Jim, high hp is all well and good, but don't forget the importance of torque. Lots of torque is what makes your daily driving enjoyable. For that reason, I would recommend a 2332. You'll enjoy the extra cubes.
Ron

Corey and Ron have valid points.....Torque makes driving easier in the "lower" RPM's much more enjoyable....and the additional displacement(2332cc) will give more HP, all other things being equal...

I run a C.B. Perf. engine and have found it to be solid in dependability, and performance....I know owners of Chico engines and Scat engines who have experienced the same satisfaction....

My advice is to call a vendor, talk to the builder, and explain what your vehicle is expected to do, and discuss any options you might need.....Remember, larger engines will require extras, like external oil coolers, etc., etc....Ask the builder for his recommendations....

Bottom line is, as always, $$$$$$$.....

Hope this helps...

Jim,
Here is SCAT's web site: http://www.scatvw.com/

I have to agree, 200-300 HP to the rear wheels is probably achieved via the new and improved "wish dyno" that seems to be available through out the USA.

Roughly 25% of your engines total power output is lost from the crankshaft/flywheel to the ground via the transaxle.

As stated, a major consideration that must be made is the cooling of that engine. Every stock cooling component is designed to cool a 1,600 cc engine and without a doubt, you're engine is going to run on the warm side unless you sink a bunch of money into aftermarket components to help cool the cylinders/heads and oil.

Your air cooled engine is actually an air/oil cooled engine and as HP/Torque go up, so does the operating temperatures.

If you're planning on building a High Torque/HP engine, make sure you use only Stock VW tin components. Search for a fan shroud from a VW Thing or spend the money for a DTM fan shroud. Make sure you "DON'T" use the cheap China made chrome tin but do use genuine VW stuff.

A large aftermarket oilcooler with fan (in some instances,2 aftermarket coolers), conversion to a Type 4 internal dog house oil cooler/ as deep a sump as is possible considering ground clearance, and piston squirters, full flow oil system/ oil filter.

All of these things will help the engine with cooling.

Forget HP, it's just a number derived from torque. The more torque, the more HP. A lot of engines can produce high HP figures and it's at the top of the RPM scale. You want an engine that produces torque starting at low RPM's and builds as you increase RPM's.

Also, when the engine is installed, make sure the engine upper half is sealed from the lower half and, if possible, a fresh air supply to the fan inlet is very helpful in getting cold air to the engine.

Do some more research before you blindly take the advice of the mechanic that "only read about" this engine. As you'll soon discover, everyone has their opinions and some are armed with facts while others are armed with idea's.

Thank you everyone for the advice and the websites. To answer some of your questions; I've already had the suspension and brakes redone to handle a bigger engine. And the chassis has been checked out for this size of an engine. Since this is something I knew I wanted to do, I had the underneath taken care of first.

Cory, to answer your question, I'm not sure who the vendor is for this engine. I'm going to ask my mechanic today, but I stopped dealing with the guys from Seabrook a long time ago.

Sounds like I have some questions to ask my mechanic. He spoke with me on the importance of torque vs. hp and said the engine he is looking at has some fantastic torque. Once again, I'm going to get the manufacturer name today and check them out. The turnkey engine does come with an external oil cooler and it appears the parts are top o the line.

I gotta say it again, you guys are the best resource anywhere in the world for this stuff. I can't imagine getting through any of this without your help and advice.

I'll get some info and post back.

Jim, after it's all done you'll be amazed at how much it all REALLY costs (gulp). I kept all the receipts for my IM over a three year period, and one day I decided to add them all up. BIG MISTAKE....DON'T EVER DO THIS, and if you are foolish enough to do this, DON'T tell your wife!

As the guys say; the builders to go to would be chosen from amongst these: CB Performance, Chico Performance, Scat, Jake Raby (Type I's on a limited basis) and one of the Berg kids (can't recall if Gary or Clyde) who's still active as an engine builder.

Yes, I do build **some** Type 1 Turn Key engines.. My program is unlike anyone else's- aks Stan Galat, he recently inquired with several vendors as well as myself about a Turn Key engine..

My option guarantees no break in necessary because the engine has 10 hours of run time when its received and has to pass the scrutiny of 3 sets of eyes, ears and noses before it leaves my shop.

I create efficiency- everything follows efficiency.

If you'd like to discuss possibilities, I'd be glad to give you 30 minutes of my time..

Thanks Jake! I would like to speak to you. How do I get in touch with you?

I have indeed been in touch with multiple builders regarding a torque-monster engine (Type 1 or 4). I'm still undecided which way I will go, but Jake's proposal was very well thought out and thorough. It was a pleasure talking with him about my desires, and his recommendations for the engine. A 95mm x 84mm Type 1 engine with Nickies would be pretty close to perfect for a speedster, IMHO.

There are good builders out there. Nothing I'm looking at is cheap. Everybody wants value for their dollar, but my advice is not to shop price alone, unless you want to build another engine in a couple of years.

"200-300 Hp at the rear wheels for $6,000"

Fully dressed (all belts in place, cooling fan / a;ternator working, street exhaust), that is something like 230 - 350 at the crank. Maybe, but I doubt it for $6,000!

Get it in writing.

Check out Feb 2007 "Dune Buggies and Hot VWs" magazine, then call CB Performance.

"200-300hp to the rear wheels" ??????????????
I threw down $6K a year ago to get 140HP motor as certified on the CB Perf. shop dyno.
(I must add that my motor is at the hi end street standard for the industry and I'm very happy with what I got)
.........Good luck Amigo..........

$6K gets you about 140 hp at the crank. 200-300 h/p at the wheels for $6K is going to be running in a NOS haze, and last about 15 seconds making that kind of power.

David is referring to the "Hot VWs" dyno shoot-out issue. The rules specified normally aspirated engines and limited displacement to 2332 for all practical purposes. It's and informative article, and here's the link to a copy:

http://www.cbperformance.com/Feb2007c.asp

The reason Dave suggested calling CB is that Pat Downs built the winning motor-- 224 hp. The problem with the whole thing is that no readings were taken below 3500 RPM-- the 228 hp number didn't come until 6500 RPM.... and at 3500 RPM 5 of the 10 entrants made more power. At 6500 RPM in top gear, my car would be moving something in the 140 mph neighborhood (more than enough to get my car airborne).

Big horsepower figures are for "braggin' rights", it's lower RPM torque is what makes a car feel fast and gives it "pull" in the driving ranges you are most likely to use. I'm much more concerned with good torque numbers at 2500 RPM, than I am with 7000 RPM horsepower numbers. Nobody wants something that falls on it's face after 5000 RPM, but the only place you could really use a peaky power-band would be on a drag strip running a close ratio gearbox and really tall ring and pinion. A car like that would be torture to actually drive anywhere.

I'm sure Pat Downs could (and does) build an engine that was much more "streetable"-- but the purpose of the dyno shoot-out was to crown a horsepower king, and the engines were built accordingly. I really doubt you'd be happy with 51.5 IDAs with 46 mm vents on your street engine. The valve-seats on the ultra-wedge-port heads on this engine actually overlap a bit-- there just isn't enough room for a 46mm intake and 37.5mm exhaust valve in a 94mm bore without some serious compromises.

Do your homework. Forewarned is forearmed.

Jim, follow the instructions posted here http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/contact.htm

Also read my site thoroughly, join my forums at http://forums.aircooledtechnology.com and start your research.

Peak HP numbers mean nothing on the street for those who are driving below 5,252 RPM, the point where torque and HP cross by formula.. Below 5,252 TQ will ALWAYS be higher than HP, keep this in mind..


Even my road racers have faster lap times when we concentrate on torque filled engines, peak HP, even for a race car is used only about 5-10% of the time, the other 90-95% of the time torque is getting the car around the track.

Building for efficiency builds for torque, as torque is a direct derivative of efficiency. The key is an engine that has USABLE power EVERY time you drive it anywhere, be it the grocery store or a DE event or autocross.

Big HP numbers come from big engines with big cams, big ports and big valves with virtually no drivability below 4,500 RPM. That gets old when you try to drive it on the street..... These engines typically make 25% more HP than they do torque...

Peak HP sells engines the first time, bid, flat torque sells a customer on effectiveness over and over again.. One of my customers has purchased 13 of my engines!

Most everything I build makes 10-15% more torque than HP... Thats why i didn't even bother entering the Dyno shootout becuse I knew a peak number would take the crown....

Torque rules, thats howAudi has won Leman with a Diesel race car that doesn't spin more than 6,000 RPM when all their competitors were spinning 10-11,000+ RPM... And they did it on less fuel.
Smart= Fast.

Al too often people are suckered in by peak numbers, not understanding how important average HP that can be used ALL THE TIME really is.

Speaking of the "Dyno showdown"
http://www.dragracingtv.com/vw/misc/chico-performance-engine-builder-showdown-part1-2006.html

Jake, I appreciate your input; every time you post I learn something new.

torque is what you feel when you ask it to go faster. HP is what keeps you going fast. All comments above are just about right, I do believe. My 2332 came from GEM VW (see their website for infop on this build and several others) and is set to deliver torque throughout the mid range, 3,000 and up. Seems to do so pretty well (2600 mi so far). Uses 44 IDFs, and gets about 20 or so MPG. Without going to extremes (which of course you could do) I think around 150 HP out of a 2332 is about right. If you are being told 250 or more, I'd be skeptical.

You guys really need to ask yourself what are you really going to do with your car. If you're looking for all out HP the car's driveability will be limited. You also must upgrade your rear suspension, brakes, shocks and tires to use the bip HP. If you want that instant torque , turbo charge it. Though your tear downs will be more frequent .
I have a Raby 2270 T4 with the DTM. I went the extra mile with the brakes , tires , traction system , chassis reinforcment etc. The car really puts hard through 1,2 & 3. We ran a 13.08 1/4 mile at the track with it this year. Thats not too shabby for a car on pump gas that gets around 26 mpg. I gave Cory a ride in my car a few years ago . Ask him what he thought.

Quite inspirational, Mr. Soltis.
This year, I intend to let you turn MINE loose. Same for you, Jake. Your advice was crucial when my engine-builder became unreliable.
I owe both of you guys bigtime.

"Jake. Your advice was crucial when my engine-builder became unreliable"

wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard that one!

Glad to help!

I have to jump in here as 200-300 HP out of a 2165 just isn't going to happen. Someone's BS meter is working O.T.

A few years back I got caught up and swept away with numbers and such. I got to tell you, Jake will keep you on track. We had our differences but in retrospect, two things became clear to me:

1.I probably could have been happy with the 180 HP engine he built for me initially but I had 200 at least in my head.
2.Torque curve; when you get the go in the RPM range is more important than some dyno-readings!
C.Getting the overall power and handling components in sync is critical; Butch was bullish in a straight line and hard to catch, but he was a pig in the twisties
D.You get what you pays for!

Paul brings up a couple of good points that might be looked at in a slightly different way:

Balance is everything!

By that, I mean:

1. That a well-thought-out engine with balanced (or application matched) components will probably give you what you want AND run reliably, too. For example, my 2,110 is running carburetors, a cam and an extractor exhaust system that I took the time to learn the specs of ahead of time so that they would all "play" together (basically, flow the right amount of air through with no bottlenecks). All this gives me a torque band that comes on at about 2,500 RPM and lasts to over 5,000 (really strong above 4K). Right what I wanted. Makes a big difference. If I were to run larger displacement I would have to go through the study again to select other components that would all flow together. Guys like Jake and Pat Downs make a living testing and running a lot of different stuff together and usually know what plays with what, reliably. Talk to them.

2. The gear ratios I chose, while maybe not "perfect" in some people's eyes, are matched to both the engine and how I tend to drive it: I never drop below 2,000 rpm, prefer to stay between 3,000 and 4,500 and have no problem cruising around town all day at 3,000 (some neighbors like it, some don't). My ratios also help to effortlessly keep it above 3,000 all the time, regardless of driving conditions, pushing the proper amount of air through the fan and keeping the engine cool. Lastly, I told the tranny builder I wanted something for about 200+ HP. If I were running a 2332 or a type 4 I would certainly get a beefier transmission with far more rugged mounts and run Porsche 930 CV joints just as a safety factor.

3. I'm running disk brakes up front, drums rear. They seem to stop well and can haul me down from 105+mph to 40mph in a little less than 150 yards (although I haven't tested how many times in rapid succession I could do this ;>) That's good enough for me and what I want to do with the car, but if I were to run a larger engine, I would probably convert the rear to disks, just for that much more stopping power (and probably add a remote brake booster as well - Simon Hambley did that on his car).

4. I'm running BIG tires (205X16 and 225X16) that stick like Locktite. I have yet to get the rear to break loose on a road course, but I probably wouldn't push it as hard as an SCCA racer. I can feel the shift when the sidewalls bend, but that's as far as it goes. Those might be adequate for more power, but something a little wider might be called for.

5. I have 3/4" anti-sway bars (front and rear) and an IRS rear end. The IRS is fine for more HP (I personally would not run swing axles on higher hp engines, but that's just me) but I would probably bump the rear anti-sway bar up to 1-1/8" or so, just to keep the tires flat to the road in harder cornering.

The point is, my car is balanced; The engine output is matched by the rest of the car to give you a whole concept. Many people drive Porsche Boxsters and (except for the "S" version) their first impression is that the car is slightly underpowered. I've driven Boxsters at New Hampshire International Speedway on the road course, at speed, and a non-"S" Boxster is a formidably fast car for the displacement because it all works together. The harder you push it, the better it feels and, while it won't quite keep up with a "Spec Miata" race car, it was pretty darn close.

I think that there's a lot more to the equation than just getting more horsepower. As Paul said; you might get a car that's wicked fast in a straight line or can snap your neck on shifts, only to fall back in the pack when you hit the twisties cuz it can't keep up. I know you've been upgrading some parts of your car already, so maybe this will give you a little more to ponder....
gn

Tell it like it is Gordon!

The engine isn't the only "combo" that ou need to consider..

proper gearing is crucial to match to the engine and the car and even the driver..

It is all in the combo and someone concerned with peak numbers that advertise well certainly isn't who you want to deal with... 90% of my engines are optimized by my transaxle, the weight of the car, speeds you intend to drive and the size of yor tires must be taken into consideration for a well configured beast to be created.

Effectiveness is the hardest thing to advertise... Until someone drives it.

Jake, you've definitely got THAT right!

gn

"Effectiveness is the hardest thing to advertise... Until someone drives it."
I sure would be tickled to drive something "effective" at Carlisle.
(hint-hint)

~WB

Too bad... I'll be in a 70' long rig:-)

For the love of God, Bill. I'll be there, and we'll get Reverend Jake to bless it -- then you can take the old girl out. The Hoopty, I mean.

Uh, well, FWIW, Wild Bill: you can drive my car anytime anywhere, as long as you bring it back. And for the record, I really like Gordon's dissertation. He speaks the truth and from experience, obviously. And for the record, my car has the beefed up pro-street tranny, gearing 1-3 that works well in the twisties, and #4 so we can keep up on the interstate, IRS, and 4X disk brakes. It has the biggest tires that will fit in the straight side body: 185s. Has a hybrid tube frame (front 3/4s) and pan (rear 1/4). Seems well balanced, but what do I know? Like all these cars, they are too light in the front, and that is a problem, but not too much.

Rave on!!

You know, I've been thinking about that "light in the front" theme lately.

Mine isn't too bad with the battery, some tools and a spare tire up front, but it starts to get light at high speeds (over 80 or so) and it would be nice to get a bit more down force by removing some of the air from beneath the car (I think a whale tail looks silly on a Speedster).

Has anyone toyed with a front air dam under the nose? (Sorry - Maybe this is a topic for a new thread....)

I have a full-sized spare up front, but I think it could use some more weight. I recently bought 4 25 lb plates to go with what I already have for working out. I'm going to try one or two of those up front behind the spare tire and see if I can tell a difference.

Hmmm... You're right, Gordon, we're way off track here. First time that ever happened, right?

I'm not so sure that added weights is the answer. Porsche tried that (two 20 pounders at the ends of the front bumpers) back in the 80's but later abandoned most of the added weight in favor of a front air dam.

Sounds worth looking in to.

Think I'll start a new thread on this....